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Re: [BCD396XT] Re: A better understanding of P25 decoding

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  • John Stark
    That should be diskcone.... sometimes smattphones are not that smart! Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID ... [Non-text portions of this message have
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 11, 2013
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      That should be diskcone.... sometimes smattphones are not that smart!

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      John Stark <johnstark@...> wrote:

      >That depends on several factors Including type of soil and wetness of the soil here I have two 12 foot ground rods on each yagi and six on the disc one.
      >
      >
      >Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      >
      >William Edwards <firemann57@...> wrote:
      >
      >>What do you consider to be "proper grounding" on those Yagi antennas?
      >>Bill E.
      >>On Feb 11, 2013 2:43 PM, "John Stark" <johnstark@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>> **
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Directional beams as you put it work great IF installed and used properly.
      >>> A Yagi antenna is exactly what is called for in the OP's case since they
      >>> are right between two sites. Using a proper Yagi antenna and coax will get
      >>> the right results. A lot of people will not properly ground the antenna and
      >>> or use cheap coax, both of which defeat the purpose of using the yagi
      >>> antenna. Poor or improper grounding lowers the antennas ability to receive
      >>> signals and block unwanted signals as much as using poor quality coax
      >>> affects reception.
      >>> I use a yagi and being east of Indianapolis I still am able to receive
      >>> some I'll Star com sites as well as many Ohio MARCS sites in addition to
      >>> most of Indiana SAFET sites using the yagi. Some frequencies I can receive
      >>> three or four different systems on. The antenna is only 25 feet up but it
      >>> has proper grounding and 50 feet of LMR400 coax. On one frequency If I move
      >>> the antenna one direction I pick up one site and then turn it 180 degrees
      >>> I will get a different site yet both sites are almost the exact same
      >>> distance from me and using the same power. Take the ground off and I don't
      >>> get much of anything. Put the ground back and the site I am aimed at is
      >>> nice and clear with no interference from the other site. If I used cheap
      >>> coax with lousy shielding I'd get the same bad results as signals get
      >>> through the shield from both sites as well as other signals degrading
      >>> everything.
      >>> In addition I am less than 1/4 mile from a cell tower and have four other
      >>> cell towers within five miles. Three can be seen from my house. Add in an
      >>> Indiana SAFET site five miles away that can also be seen from home yet even
      >>> with all of that I can find the Control Channels for 150+ trunked systems
      >>> and sites in good conditions using the yagi.
      >>> The point being proper installation will do the job the OP needs to hear
      >>> the site he wants to hear.
      >>>
      >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
      >>>
      >>> dataman60435 dataman60435@...> wrote:
      >>>
      >>> >Its really experimental, digital is rough, not like regular freqys...I
      >>> have had people send me email that directional beams did not work....I have
      >>> a RS 25-1.3 grnd plane think its # 25-173 $29.00 with 35' RG6u in the attic
      >>> and it receives three towers very well....I have the Channel Master 5094A
      >>> (disc) up 25' with LMR400 and it works very well on same towers
      >>> T102,126,113, and T125....Im too far south for T101-Dupage...I can also
      >>> hear Chicago FD new 476-478 non trunked digital stuf...Took me awhile to
      >>> figure out what to use....My own city joined Starcom and uses T113-Will Co
      >>> but there "ENC" !....
      >>> >
      >>> >--- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Dan Simon wrote:
      >>> >>
      >>> >> Ok. Yes, I have gotten the feeling from some stuff I have read that I
      >>> am right between towers. What is the best solution for that overall? Or is
      >>> there one?
      >>> >>
      >>> >> Thanks!
      >>> >> -Dan
      >>> >> On Feb 10, 2013, at 2:01 PM, dataman60435 wrote:
      >>> >>
      >>> >> > I noticed ur in Geneva, im in Joliet, using outdoor antennas i
      >>> monitor T113,102,126, the last one T126-Aurora u should be able to
      >>> hear...T101-Dupage is very difficult to hear in alot of places...Even tho
      >>> there is a new firmware upgrade if you don't hear the "CC" well ur not
      >>> gonna hear Starcom Digital....My daughter is in Elgin, in the mobile going
      >>> thru your town using the RS800 rubber duck T101-Lisle and in some spots i
      >>> hear T115-Lake Co.....Your town is kind of in between towers.....
      >>> >> >
      >>> >> > --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Dan Simon wrote:
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > > Yes I have. I am running 1.11.01, the newest firmware version.
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > > Thanks,
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > > -Dan
      >>> >> > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:06 PM, Milton Engle wrote:
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > > > Have you installed the latest version firmware 1.11.something
      >>> (requires
      >>> >> > > > Updater version 3)?
      >>> >> > > >
      >>> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
      >>> >> > > > From: "kc9vzv" kc9vzv@>
      >>> >> > > > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
      >>> >> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 10:13 PM
      >>> >> > > > Subject: [BCD396XT] A better understanding of P25 decoding
      >>> >> > > >
      >>> >> > > > >I am trying to monitor StarCom21 in ILL but I am still (after
      >>> about 3
      >>> >> > > > >months of playing with settings) having issues with my scanner
      >>> decoding the
      >>> >> > > > >system. I upgraded my firmware and read through this
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/P25_audio_decode_level_adjustment,
      >>> >> > > > >but I feel like I am missing something obvious because a lot of
      >>> the
      >>> >> > > > >transmissions are still garbled. Any thoughts?
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > > Thanks!
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > > -Dan, KC9VZV
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > > >
      >>> >> > > >
      >>> >> > > >
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>> >> > >
      >>> >> >
      >>> >> >
      >>> >>
      >>> >>
      >>> >>
      >>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>> >>
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> >------------------------------------
      >>> >
      >>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>------------------------------------
      >>
      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Hopkins
      Sorry, but I have to take issue with John Stark’s comments about grounding a Yagi. Any Yagi will work with a scanner or hand held tranciever without being
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 12, 2013
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        Sorry, but I have to take issue with John Stark’s comments about grounding a Yagi. Any Yagi will work with a scanner or hand held tranciever without being grounded. What IS important is that you use good quality coax as John suggests and that the coax braid is properly connected to the yagi and the scanner.



        That said, grounding an outdoor Yagi via the mast or a large diameter ground cable should be done for lightning protection, but it won’t affect the Yagi’s performance.



        Ground below a Yagi becomes important when the Yagi is close to ground in terms of wavelength. Since scanners are typically working in the VHF/UHF range, ground is typically multiple wavelengths below the antenna so it doesn’t really play a role.



        It does become an issue at HF frequencies since the wavelengths are very long and unless one has a very tall tower, antennas are likely to be within a wavelength of ground. Ground reflections and ground absorption then become issues. In any case grounding the Yagi itself isn’t the issue, but the distance above ground.







        Mike Hopkins K1VLB

        <mailto:Mhopkins735@...> Mhopkins735@...



        From: <mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com> BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [ <mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com> mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Stark
        Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 3:43 PM
        To: <mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com> BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: A better understanding of P25 decoding





        Directional beams as you put it work great IF installed and used properly. A Yagi antenna is exactly what is called for in the OP's case since they are right between two sites. Using a proper Yagi antenna and coax will get the right results. A lot of people will not properly ground the antenna and or use cheap coax, both of which defeat the purpose of using the yagi antenna. Poor or improper grounding lowers the antennas ability to receive signals and block unwanted signals as much as using poor quality coax affects reception.
        I use a yagi and being east of Indianapolis I still am able to receive some I'll Star com sites as well as many Ohio MARCS sites in addition to most of Indiana SAFET sites using the yagi. Some frequencies I can receive three or four different systems on. The antenna is only 25 feet up but it has proper grounding and 50 feet of LMR400 coax. On one frequency If I move the antenna one direction I pick up one site and then turn it 180 degrees I will get a different site yet both sites are almost the exact same distance from me and using the same power. Take the ground off and I don't get much of anything. Put the ground back and the site I am aimed at is nice and clear with no interference from the other site. If I used cheap coax with lousy shielding I'd get the same bad results as signals get through the shield from both sites as well as other signals degrading everything.
        In addition I am less than 1/4 mile from a cell tower and have four other cell towers within five miles. Three can be seen from my house. Add in an Indiana SAFET site five miles away that can also be seen from home yet even with all of that I can find the Control Channels for 150+ trunked systems and sites in good conditions using the yagi.
        The point being proper installation will do the job the OP needs to hear the site he wants to hear.

        Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

        dataman60435 <mailto:dataman60435%40yahoo.com> dataman60435@...> wrote:

        >Its really experimental, digital is rough, not like regular freqys...I have had people send me email that directional beams did not work....I have a RS 25-1.3 grnd plane think its # 25-173 $29.00 with 35' RG6u in the attic and it receives three towers very well....I have the Channel Master 5094A (disc) up 25' with LMR400 and it works very well on same towers T102,126,113, and T125....Im too far south for T101-Dupage...I can also hear Chicago FD new 476-478 non trunked digital stuf...Took me awhile to figure out what to use....My own city joined Starcom and uses T113-Will Co but there "ENC" !....
        >
        >--- In <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Dan Simon wrote:
        >>
        >> Ok. Yes, I have gotten the feeling from some stuff I have read that I am right between towers. What is the best solution for that overall? Or is there one?
        >>
        >> Thanks!
        >> -Dan
        >> On Feb 10, 2013, at 2:01 PM, dataman60435 wrote:
        >>
        >> > I noticed ur in Geneva, im in Joliet, using outdoor antennas i monitor T113,102,126, the last one T126-Aurora u should be able to hear...T101-Dupage is very difficult to hear in alot of places...Even tho there is a new firmware upgrade if you don't hear the "CC" well ur not gonna hear Starcom Digital....My daughter is in Elgin, in the mobile going thru your town using the RS800 rubber duck T101-Lisle and in some spots i hear T115-Lake Co.....Your town is kind of in between towers.....
        >> >
        >> > --- In <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Dan Simon wrote:
        >> > >
        >> > > Yes I have. I am running 1.11.01, the newest firmware version.
        >> > >
        >> > > Thanks,
        >> > >
        >> > > -Dan
        >> > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:06 PM, Milton Engle wrote:
        >> > >
        >> > > > Have you installed the latest version firmware 1.11.something (requires
        >> > > > Updater version 3)?
        >> > > >
        >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
        >> > > > From: "kc9vzv" kc9vzv@>
        >> > > > To: <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
        >> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 10:13 PM
        >> > > > Subject: [BCD396XT] A better understanding of P25 decoding
        >> > > >
        >> > > > >I am trying to monitor StarCom21 in ILL but I am still (after about 3
        >> > > > >months of playing with settings) having issues with my scanner decoding the
        >> > > > >system. I upgraded my firmware and read through this
        >> > > > > <http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/P25_audio_decode_level_adjustment,> http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/P25_audio_decode_level_adjustment,
        >> > > > >but I feel like I am missing something obvious because a lot of the
        >> > > > >transmissions are still garbled. Any thoughts?
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > > Thanks!
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > > -Dan, KC9VZV
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > > ------------------------------------
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > >
        >> > > > >
        >> > > >
        >> > > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> > >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Hopkins
        Directional beams - yagi s, log periodics, etc.. don t care if the signal is digital or analog. Mike Hopkins Home: 603 882 2030 Cell: 603 765 3736
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 12, 2013
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          Directional beams - yagi's, log periodics, etc.. don't care if the signal is
          digital or analog.



          Mike Hopkins

          Home: 603 882 2030

          Cell: 603 765 3736

          Mhopkins735@...



          From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of dataman60435
          Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 2:52 PM
          To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [BCD396XT] Re: A better understanding of P25 decoding





          Its really experimental, digital is rough, not like regular freqys...I have
          had people send me email that directional beams did not work....I have a RS
          25-1.3 grnd plane think its # 25-173 $29.00 with 35' RG6u in the attic and
          it receives three towers very well....I have the Channel Master 5094A (disc)
          up 25' with LMR400 and it works very well on same towers T102,126,113, and
          T125....Im too far south for T101-Dupage...I can also hear Chicago FD new
          476-478 non trunked digital stuf...Took me awhile to figure out what to
          use....My own city joined Starcom and uses T113-Will Co but there "ENC"
          !....

          --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> , Dan
          Simon wrote:
          >
          > Ok. Yes, I have gotten the feeling from some stuff I have read that I am
          right between towers. What is the best solution for that overall? Or is
          there one?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > -Dan
          > On Feb 10, 2013, at 2:01 PM, dataman60435 wrote:
          >
          > > I noticed ur in Geneva, im in Joliet, using outdoor antennas i monitor
          T113,102,126, the last one T126-Aurora u should be able to
          hear...T101-Dupage is very difficult to hear in alot of places...Even tho
          there is a new firmware upgrade if you don't hear the "CC" well ur not gonna
          hear Starcom Digital....My daughter is in Elgin, in the mobile going thru
          your town using the RS800 rubber duck T101-Lisle and in some spots i hear
          T115-Lake Co.....Your town is kind of in between towers.....
          > >
          > > --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          Dan Simon wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Yes I have. I am running 1.11.01, the newest firmware version.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > >
          > > > -Dan
          > > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:06 PM, Milton Engle wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Have you installed the latest version firmware 1.11.something
          (requires
          > > > > Updater version 3)?
          > > > >
          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > > From: "kc9vzv" kc9vzv@>
          > > > > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> >
          > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 10:13 PM
          > > > > Subject: [BCD396XT] A better understanding of P25 decoding
          > > > >
          > > > > >I am trying to monitor StarCom21 in ILL but I am still (after about
          3
          > > > > >months of playing with settings) having issues with my scanner
          decoding the
          > > > > >system. I upgraded my firmware and read through this
          > > > >
          >http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/P25_audio_decode_level_adjustment,

          > > > > >but I feel like I am missing something obvious because a lot of the

          > > > > >transmissions are still garbled. Any thoughts?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thanks!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -Dan, KC9VZV
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ------------------------------------
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tony Langdon
          ... Don t forget polarisation. Most, if not all of the signals of interest to people in the group here are going to be verticaly polarised, because that makes
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 12, 2013
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            On 13/02/13 3:12 PM, Michael Hopkins wrote:

            > Sorry, but I have to take issue with John Stark’s comments about grounding a Yagi. Any Yagi will work with a scanner or hand held tranciever without being grounded. What IS important is that you use good quality coax as John suggests and that the coax braid is properly connected to the yagi and the scanner.
            Don't forget polarisation. Most, if not all of the signals of interest
            to people in the group here are going to be verticaly polarised, because
            that makes it easy to use a simple vertical antenna for mobile
            stations. That means any Yagi needs to be mounted "on its side", and
            not "flat" like a TV antenna. The loss caused by this cross
            polarisation can exceed 20 dB, and the radiation pattern is likely to be
            all over the place, increasing the likelihood of reflections corrupting
            the received signal, especially when receiving digital transmissions.

            --
            73 de Tony VK3JED
            http://vkradio.com
          • Michael Hopkins
            Tony --- you are absolutely correct. Most of what we listen to on a scanner is vertically polarized so anyone using a yagi should definitely mount it so the
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 13, 2013
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              Tony --- you are absolutely correct. Most of what we listen to on a scanner is vertically polarized so anyone using a yagi should definitely mount it so the elements are vertical. Personally, I use a discone antenna which is broadband from about 100MHz to 1GHz, vertically polarized and omnidirectional. I have two of them: one at home on a 30 foot mast, and one at the cabin in main just stuck up in a crawl space about 20 feet above the ground. Both work exceptionally well.



              Cheers,





              Mike Hopkins – K1VLB

              Mhopkins735@...



              From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Langdon
              Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:02 AM
              To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: A better understanding of P25 decoding





              On 13/02/13 3:12 PM, Michael Hopkins wrote:

              > Sorry, but I have to take issue with John Stark’s comments about grounding a Yagi. Any Yagi will work with a scanner or hand held tranciever without being grounded. What IS important is that you use good quality coax as John suggests and that the coax braid is properly connected to the yagi and the scanner.
              Don't forget polarisation. Most, if not all of the signals of interest
              to people in the group here are going to be verticaly polarised, because
              that makes it easy to use a simple vertical antenna for mobile
              stations. That means any Yagi needs to be mounted "on its side", and
              not "flat" like a TV antenna. The loss caused by this cross
              polarisation can exceed 20 dB, and the radiation pattern is likely to be
              all over the place, increasing the likelihood of reflections corrupting
              the received signal, especially when receiving digital transmissions.

              --
              73 de Tony VK3JED
              http://vkradio.com





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