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RE: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think

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  • Michael Hopkins
    I m guessing the problem isn t with the grounding of the speaker but more likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too high (or
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
      I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
      likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
      high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
      idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.



      Shorting out the speaker probably wouldn't kill the unit. It's possible, but
      audio outputs are often transformer coupled and floating, so grounding one
      side or the other likely wouldn't hurt anything. I certainly wouldn't ground
      one side of the speaker anyway since it wouldn't do you any good anyway. On
      my XT, the low side is NOT grounded, so it's likely floating but may get
      grounded somehow back through the low side of my computer audio input jack
      or the audio input connection on an amplified speaker - don't know; haven't
      checked.



      Regarding the starter current story below:



      If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
      to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:



      1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio

      2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.



      Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
      electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
      way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
      direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
      side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
      antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
      battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
      The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
      try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
      connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.



      I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
      external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
      mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
      input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
      would happen pretty quick ------



      Hope this is helpful to someone.





      Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

      Home: 603 882 2030

      Cell: 603 765 3736

      Mhopkins735@...



      From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of MCH
      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
      To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





      If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
      tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
      increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
      me that is fine.

      I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
      grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
      Never assume anything about radio design.

      As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
      them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
      no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
      blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
      the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.

      Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
      were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
      idea to connect those points)

      Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
      the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
      competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
      vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
      ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
      which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
      lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
      that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
      that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
      side of the radio to the chassis.

      I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
      help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
      manual does say to not ground the speaker.

      Joe M.

      radioboy75 wrote:
      > I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
      here.
      >
      > I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
      it IS ground.
      >
      > Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
      "signal"?
      >
      > Apparently not . . .
      >
      > Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
      >
      > I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
      be common knowledge . . .
      >
      > Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
      >
      > SVA
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • MCH
      In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the chassis of the
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
        In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
        original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
        chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

        Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
        it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
        battery.

        Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
        easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

        And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
        case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
        speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
        a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

        It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
        but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
        same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
        blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

        But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
        easiest (and safest) solution.

        Joe M.

        Michael Hopkins wrote:
        > Regarding the starter current story below:
        >
        >
        >
        > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
        > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
        >
        >
        >
        > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
        >
        > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
        >
        >
        >
        > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
        > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
        > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
        > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
        > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
        > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
        > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
        > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
        > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
        > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
        >
        >
        >
        > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
        > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
        > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
        > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
        > would happen pretty quick ------
        >
        >
        >
        > Hope this is helpful to someone.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
        >
        > Home: 603 882 2030
        >
        > Cell: 603 765 3736
        >
        > Mhopkins735@...
        >
        >
        >
        > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of MCH
        > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
        > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
        > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
        > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
        > me that is fine.
        >
        > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
        > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
        > Never assume anything about radio design.
        >
        > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
        > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
        > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
        > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
        > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
        >
        > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
        > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
        > idea to connect those points)
        >
        > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
        > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
        > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
        > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
        > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
        > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
        > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
        > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
        > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
        > side of the radio to the chassis.
        >
        > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
        > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
        > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
        >
        > Joe M.
        >
        > radioboy75 wrote:
        >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
        > here.
        >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
        > it IS ground.
        >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
        > "signal"?
        >> Apparently not . . .
        >>
        >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
        >>
        >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
        > be common knowledge . . .
        >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
        >>
        >> SVA
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12 02:34:00
        >
      • Michael Hopkins
        I agree ---- One thing I didn t mention is the use of fuses in both positive and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I run both
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
          I agree ---- One thing I didn't mention is the use of fuses in both positive
          and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I
          run both wires to the battery for a 100 watt transceiver so I don't have
          high ground currents from the transceiver running all around the car ---
          reduces the chances of noise problems from ignition as well and the
          likelihood of transients from other electronics and electrical systems
          getting to my radio. Power for my XT comes from a cigarette lighter type
          power connector. All seems to work well..











          Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

          Home: 603 882 2030

          Cell: 603 765 3736

          Mhopkins735@...



          From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of MCH
          Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 4:57 PM
          To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





          In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
          original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
          chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

          Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
          it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
          battery.

          Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
          easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

          And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
          case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
          speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
          a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

          It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
          but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
          same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
          blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

          But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
          easiest (and safest) solution.

          Joe M.

          Michael Hopkins wrote:
          > Regarding the starter current story below:
          >
          >
          >
          > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
          > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
          >
          >
          >
          > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
          >
          > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
          >
          >
          >
          > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
          > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
          > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
          > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the
          low
          > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
          > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
          > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the
          charger.
          > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
          > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no
          DC
          > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
          >
          >
          >
          > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
          > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
          > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
          > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet
          it
          > would happen pretty quick ------
          >
          >
          >
          > Hope this is helpful to someone.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
          >
          > Home: 603 882 2030
          >
          > Cell: 603 765 3736
          >
          > Mhopkins735@... <mailto:Mhopkins735%40charter.net>
          >
          >
          >
          > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
          Behalf
          > Of MCH
          > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
          > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
          > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
          > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
          > me that is fine.
          >
          > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
          > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
          > Never assume anything about radio design.
          >
          > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
          > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
          > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
          > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
          > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
          >
          > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
          > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
          > idea to connect those points)
          >
          > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
          > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
          > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
          > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
          > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
          > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
          > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
          > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
          > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
          > side of the radio to the chassis.
          >
          > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
          > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
          > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
          >
          > Joe M.
          >
          > radioboy75 wrote:
          >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
          > here.
          >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
          > it IS ground.
          >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
          > "signal"?
          >> Apparently not . . .
          >>
          >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
          >>
          >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
          > be common knowledge . . .
          >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
          >>
          >> SVA
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12
          02:34:00
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tony Langdon, VK3JED
          ... If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then connecting one side of
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
            At 06:19 AM 10/10/2012, you wrote:
            >I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
            >likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
            >high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
            >idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.

            If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way
            to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then
            connecting one side of the speaker to ground will put one of the
            halves of the audio amp across the DC supply, putting stress on that
            output transistor and any voltage regulators in circuit. Another
            potential issue is if voltage regulation takes place on the negative
            side of the supply. In this case, you'd short out the regulator
            and expose the radio to overvoltage.

            73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
            http://vkradio.com
          • Alex
            ... Illegal voltage will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 21, 2012
              --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Lance <milcom_chaser@...> wrote:
              >
              > Scott,
              >
              > Can you power the radio up on Alkaline Batteries, no external power source?
              >
              > Illegal Voltage means the source voltage your using is too high...

              "Illegal voltage" will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery that has run low.)
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.