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Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think

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  • Lance
    I believe 6 volts is max for the input... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 7, 2012
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      I believe 6 volts is max for the input...


      On Oct 7, 2012, at 2:56 PM, radioboy75 wrote:

      > Yes, batteries work fine.
      >
      > I'm pretty sure I tried it on the cigarette lighter adapter too with the same results.
      >
      > If I didn't I should try that.
      >
      > I should have mentioned that I did put the power supply on the multimeter, and it's putting out the appropriate voltage . . .
      >
      > SVA
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Hopkins
      I m guessing the problem isn t with the grounding of the speaker but more likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too high (or
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
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        I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
        likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
        high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
        idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.



        Shorting out the speaker probably wouldn't kill the unit. It's possible, but
        audio outputs are often transformer coupled and floating, so grounding one
        side or the other likely wouldn't hurt anything. I certainly wouldn't ground
        one side of the speaker anyway since it wouldn't do you any good anyway. On
        my XT, the low side is NOT grounded, so it's likely floating but may get
        grounded somehow back through the low side of my computer audio input jack
        or the audio input connection on an amplified speaker - don't know; haven't
        checked.



        Regarding the starter current story below:



        If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
        to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:



        1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio

        2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.



        Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
        electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
        way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
        direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
        side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
        antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
        battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
        The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
        try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
        connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.



        I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
        external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
        mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
        input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
        would happen pretty quick ------



        Hope this is helpful to someone.





        Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

        Home: 603 882 2030

        Cell: 603 765 3736

        Mhopkins735@...



        From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of MCH
        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
        To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





        If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
        tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
        increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
        me that is fine.

        I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
        grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
        Never assume anything about radio design.

        As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
        them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
        no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
        blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
        the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.

        Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
        were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
        idea to connect those points)

        Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
        the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
        competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
        vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
        ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
        which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
        lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
        that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
        that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
        side of the radio to the chassis.

        I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
        help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
        manual does say to not ground the speaker.

        Joe M.

        radioboy75 wrote:
        > I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
        here.
        >
        > I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
        it IS ground.
        >
        > Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
        "signal"?
        >
        > Apparently not . . .
        >
        > Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
        >
        > I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
        be common knowledge . . .
        >
        > Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
        >
        > SVA
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MCH
        In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the chassis of the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
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          In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
          original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
          chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

          Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
          it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
          battery.

          Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
          easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

          And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
          case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
          speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
          a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

          It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
          but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
          same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
          blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

          But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
          easiest (and safest) solution.

          Joe M.

          Michael Hopkins wrote:
          > Regarding the starter current story below:
          >
          >
          >
          > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
          > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
          >
          >
          >
          > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
          >
          > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
          >
          >
          >
          > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
          > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
          > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
          > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
          > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
          > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
          > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
          > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
          > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
          > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
          >
          >
          >
          > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
          > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
          > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
          > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
          > would happen pretty quick ------
          >
          >
          >
          > Hope this is helpful to someone.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
          >
          > Home: 603 882 2030
          >
          > Cell: 603 765 3736
          >
          > Mhopkins735@...
          >
          >
          >
          > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of MCH
          > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
          > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
          > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
          > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
          > me that is fine.
          >
          > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
          > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
          > Never assume anything about radio design.
          >
          > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
          > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
          > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
          > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
          > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
          >
          > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
          > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
          > idea to connect those points)
          >
          > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
          > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
          > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
          > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
          > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
          > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
          > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
          > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
          > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
          > side of the radio to the chassis.
          >
          > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
          > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
          > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
          >
          > Joe M.
          >
          > radioboy75 wrote:
          >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
          > here.
          >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
          > it IS ground.
          >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
          > "signal"?
          >> Apparently not . . .
          >>
          >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
          >>
          >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
          > be common knowledge . . .
          >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
          >>
          >> SVA
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12 02:34:00
          >
        • Michael Hopkins
          I agree ---- One thing I didn t mention is the use of fuses in both positive and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I run both
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree ---- One thing I didn't mention is the use of fuses in both positive
            and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I
            run both wires to the battery for a 100 watt transceiver so I don't have
            high ground currents from the transceiver running all around the car ---
            reduces the chances of noise problems from ignition as well and the
            likelihood of transients from other electronics and electrical systems
            getting to my radio. Power for my XT comes from a cigarette lighter type
            power connector. All seems to work well..











            Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

            Home: 603 882 2030

            Cell: 603 765 3736

            Mhopkins735@...



            From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of MCH
            Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 4:57 PM
            To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





            In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
            original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
            chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

            Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
            it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
            battery.

            Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
            easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

            And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
            case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
            speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
            a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

            It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
            but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
            same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
            blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

            But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
            easiest (and safest) solution.

            Joe M.

            Michael Hopkins wrote:
            > Regarding the starter current story below:
            >
            >
            >
            > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
            > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
            >
            >
            >
            > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
            >
            > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
            >
            >
            >
            > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
            > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
            > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
            > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the
            low
            > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
            > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
            > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the
            charger.
            > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
            > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no
            DC
            > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
            >
            >
            >
            > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
            > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
            > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
            > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet
            it
            > would happen pretty quick ------
            >
            >
            >
            > Hope this is helpful to someone.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
            >
            > Home: 603 882 2030
            >
            > Cell: 603 765 3736
            >
            > Mhopkins735@... <mailto:Mhopkins735%40charter.net>
            >
            >
            >
            > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf
            > Of MCH
            > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
            > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
            > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
            > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
            > me that is fine.
            >
            > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
            > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
            > Never assume anything about radio design.
            >
            > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
            > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
            > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
            > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
            > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
            >
            > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
            > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
            > idea to connect those points)
            >
            > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
            > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
            > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
            > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
            > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
            > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
            > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
            > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
            > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
            > side of the radio to the chassis.
            >
            > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
            > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
            > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
            >
            > Joe M.
            >
            > radioboy75 wrote:
            >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
            > here.
            >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
            > it IS ground.
            >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
            > "signal"?
            >> Apparently not . . .
            >>
            >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
            >>
            >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
            > be common knowledge . . .
            >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
            >>
            >> SVA
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12
            02:34:00
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tony Langdon, VK3JED
            ... If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then connecting one side of
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              At 06:19 AM 10/10/2012, you wrote:
              >I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
              >likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
              >high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
              >idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.

              If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way
              to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then
              connecting one side of the speaker to ground will put one of the
              halves of the audio amp across the DC supply, putting stress on that
              output transistor and any voltage regulators in circuit. Another
              potential issue is if voltage regulation takes place on the negative
              side of the supply. In this case, you'd short out the regulator
              and expose the radio to overvoltage.

              73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
              http://vkradio.com
            • Alex
              ... Illegal voltage will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 21, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Lance <milcom_chaser@...> wrote:
                >
                > Scott,
                >
                > Can you power the radio up on Alkaline Batteries, no external power source?
                >
                > Illegal Voltage means the source voltage your using is too high...

                "Illegal voltage" will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery that has run low.)
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