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Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think

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  • MCH
    If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and increased the load on
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 7, 2012
      If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
      tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
      increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
      me that is fine.

      I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
      grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
      Never assume anything about radio design.

      As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
      them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
      no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
      blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
      the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.

      Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
      were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
      idea to connect those points)

      Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
      the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
      competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
      vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
      ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
      which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
      lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
      that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
      that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
      side of the radio to the chassis.

      I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
      help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
      manual does say to not ground the speaker.

      Joe M.

      radioboy75 wrote:
      > I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond here.
      >
      > I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that it IS ground.
      >
      > Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red, "signal"?
      >
      > Apparently not . . .
      >
      > Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
      >
      > I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to be common knowledge . . .
      >
      > Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
      >
      > SVA
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Lance
      I believe 6 volts is max for the input... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 7, 2012
        I believe 6 volts is max for the input...


        On Oct 7, 2012, at 2:56 PM, radioboy75 wrote:

        > Yes, batteries work fine.
        >
        > I'm pretty sure I tried it on the cigarette lighter adapter too with the same results.
        >
        > If I didn't I should try that.
        >
        > I should have mentioned that I did put the power supply on the multimeter, and it's putting out the appropriate voltage . . .
        >
        > SVA
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Hopkins
        I m guessing the problem isn t with the grounding of the speaker but more likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too high (or
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
          I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
          likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
          high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
          idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.



          Shorting out the speaker probably wouldn't kill the unit. It's possible, but
          audio outputs are often transformer coupled and floating, so grounding one
          side or the other likely wouldn't hurt anything. I certainly wouldn't ground
          one side of the speaker anyway since it wouldn't do you any good anyway. On
          my XT, the low side is NOT grounded, so it's likely floating but may get
          grounded somehow back through the low side of my computer audio input jack
          or the audio input connection on an amplified speaker - don't know; haven't
          checked.



          Regarding the starter current story below:



          If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
          to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:



          1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio

          2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.



          Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
          electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
          way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
          direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
          side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
          antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
          battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
          The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
          try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
          connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.



          I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
          external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
          mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
          input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
          would happen pretty quick ------



          Hope this is helpful to someone.





          Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

          Home: 603 882 2030

          Cell: 603 765 3736

          Mhopkins735@...



          From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of MCH
          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
          To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





          If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
          tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
          increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
          me that is fine.

          I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
          grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
          Never assume anything about radio design.

          As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
          them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
          no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
          blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
          the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.

          Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
          were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
          idea to connect those points)

          Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
          the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
          competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
          vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
          ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
          which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
          lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
          that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
          that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
          side of the radio to the chassis.

          I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
          help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
          manual does say to not ground the speaker.

          Joe M.

          radioboy75 wrote:
          > I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
          here.
          >
          > I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
          it IS ground.
          >
          > Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
          "signal"?
          >
          > Apparently not . . .
          >
          > Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
          >
          > I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
          be common knowledge . . .
          >
          > Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
          >
          > SVA
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • MCH
          In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the chassis of the
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
            In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
            original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
            chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

            Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
            it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
            battery.

            Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
            easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

            And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
            case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
            speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
            a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

            It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
            but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
            same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
            blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

            But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
            easiest (and safest) solution.

            Joe M.

            Michael Hopkins wrote:
            > Regarding the starter current story below:
            >
            >
            >
            > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
            > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
            >
            >
            >
            > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
            >
            > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
            >
            >
            >
            > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
            > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
            > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
            > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the low
            > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
            > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
            > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the charger.
            > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
            > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no DC
            > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
            >
            >
            >
            > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
            > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
            > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
            > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet it
            > would happen pretty quick ------
            >
            >
            >
            > Hope this is helpful to someone.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
            >
            > Home: 603 882 2030
            >
            > Cell: 603 765 3736
            >
            > Mhopkins735@...
            >
            >
            >
            > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of MCH
            > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
            > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
            > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
            > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
            > me that is fine.
            >
            > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
            > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
            > Never assume anything about radio design.
            >
            > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
            > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
            > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
            > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
            > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
            >
            > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
            > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
            > idea to connect those points)
            >
            > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
            > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
            > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
            > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
            > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
            > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
            > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
            > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
            > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
            > side of the radio to the chassis.
            >
            > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
            > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
            > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
            >
            > Joe M.
            >
            > radioboy75 wrote:
            >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
            > here.
            >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
            > it IS ground.
            >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
            > "signal"?
            >> Apparently not . . .
            >>
            >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
            >>
            >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
            > be common knowledge . . .
            >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
            >>
            >> SVA
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12 02:34:00
            >
          • Michael Hopkins
            I agree ---- One thing I didn t mention is the use of fuses in both positive and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I run both
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
              I agree ---- One thing I didn't mention is the use of fuses in both positive
              and negative wires to the battery. That also works to prevent problems. I
              run both wires to the battery for a 100 watt transceiver so I don't have
              high ground currents from the transceiver running all around the car ---
              reduces the chances of noise problems from ignition as well and the
              likelihood of transients from other electronics and electrical systems
              getting to my radio. Power for my XT comes from a cigarette lighter type
              power connector. All seems to work well..











              Mike Hopkins - K1VLB

              Home: 603 882 2030

              Cell: 603 765 3736

              Mhopkins735@...



              From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of MCH
              Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 4:57 PM
              To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think





              In this case, the ground wire was run directly to the battery (hence the
              original comment to not run the ground wire to the battery), and the
              chassis of the radio was grounded (likely for RF suppression reasons).

              Granted, there are cases where there would not be the complete path, but
              it's far better to just ground anything to the chassis rather than the
              battery.

              Of course, you could also insulate all the other grounds, but it's much
              easier to simply not run the ground wire to the battery.

              And yes, the chassis connection could be via the radio mount (where the
              case of the radio is grounded internally), via the antenna, via a
              speaker, or even via a GPS that is powered from the vehicle. Grounds are
              a good thing to have - just not right to the battery for that one reason.

              It's also true that the path won't last forever under a starter load,
              but by the time the path "fuses", the damage will have been done. The
              same can even be said for adding a fuse to the ground line. It will
              blow, but what else is damaged in the process?

              But, the suggestion of eliminating item 1 in your scenario is the
              easiest (and safest) solution.

              Joe M.

              Michael Hopkins wrote:
              > Regarding the starter current story below:
              >
              >
              >
              > If the battery ground wire is missing, seems to me two things are required
              > to make the starter motor current flow to the radio:
              >
              >
              >
              > 1. a ground wire direct from the battery to the radio
              >
              > 2. a ground connection from the radio back to the chassis.
              >
              >
              >
              > Otherwise not only would the starter motor not operate, but no other
              > electrical circuit would function, including the starter relay. The only
              > way I can see to make starter current flow through the XT when you have a
              > direct connection to the battery is to use an external antenna where the
              low
              > side of the antenna is bonded to vehicle chassis - a magnetic mounted
              > antenna wouldn't do it. Even in this case, it assumes the wire to the
              > battery is NOT made out of the same skinny wire that comes with the
              charger.
              > The skinny wire will likely act as a fuse and open up on its own when you
              > try to run >100A through it. But since my antenna is a mag mount with no
              DC
              > connection to the chassis, I'm still safe.
              >
              >
              >
              > I guess if you use a large enough wire size back to the battery AND use an
              > external antenna where the low side is bonded to the chassis (not a mag
              > mount or glass mount) you could burn up PCB track between the DC negative
              > input connector and the antenna connector. I'm only guessing, but I'd bet
              it
              > would happen pretty quick ------
              >
              >
              >
              > Hope this is helpful to someone.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Mike Hopkins - K1VLB
              >
              > Home: 603 882 2030
              >
              > Cell: 603 765 3736
              >
              > Mhopkins735@... <mailto:Mhopkins735%40charter.net>
              >
              >
              >
              > From: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf
              > Of MCH
              > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 6:08 PM
              > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Re: Fried It I think
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > If you will only accept an answer from UPMan, that is fine. But, I will
              > tell you that you shorted one side of the speaker to ground and
              > increased the load on the audio amp. Again, if you don't want to believe
              > me that is fine.
              >
              > I will let you know that many radios do not use speakers that are
              > grounded on one side. It may not be common knowledge, but it should be.
              > Never assume anything about radio design.
              >
              > As for speakers, the colors can be anything the manufacturer puts in
              > them. It's usually what is supplied by the speaker manufacturer (who has
              > no idea what they are being connected to). I've seen black/red, two
              > blacks, two whites, two greys, yellow/gray, Etc. Sometimes one side of
              > the speaker was grounded. Often, it is not.
              >
              > Why didn't you use a meter to check the voltages between the points you
              > were connecting? (often if there is a voltage difference it's not a good
              > idea to connect those points)
              >
              > Here is one more common error that ill-informed people do: They connect
              > the ground side of a mobile radio to the battery. NEVER do that. I had a
              > competitor install a commercial two-way radio in a vehicle this way. The
              > vehicle lost the ground between the chassis and the battery. Guess where
              > ALL the starting current went; Right through the radio's ground wire
              > which was the only path left. It literally fried the radio and they are
              > lucky they didn't burn the vehicle up. Just another one of those things
              > that should be common knowledge, but isn't. Some will say if you fuse
              > that like, it makes it OK. It still isn't OK. Just connect the ground
              > side of the radio to the chassis.
              >
              > I know none of this does you any good at this point, but maybe it will
              > help the next person. When in doubt, ask first. I'm pretty sure the
              > manual does say to not ground the speaker.
              >
              > Joe M.
              >
              > radioboy75 wrote:
              >> I realize you said it was a rhetorical question, but I had to respond
              > here.
              >> I guess I would connect it that way because it was my understanding that
              > it IS ground.
              >> Doesn't the black wire on a speaker indicate "ground" and the red,
              > "signal"?
              >> Apparently not . . .
              >>
              >> Some lessons you learn the hard way . . .
              >>
              >> I wish I was more informed about that sort of thing. It doesn't appear to
              > be common knowledge . . .
              >> Perhaps UPman could explain what I did and why I shouldn't do it.
              >>
              >> SVA
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2441.1.1/5317 - Release Date: 10/08/12
              02:34:00
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tony Langdon, VK3JED
              ... If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then connecting one side of
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 9, 2012
                At 06:19 AM 10/10/2012, you wrote:
                >I'm guessing the problem isn't with the grounding of the speaker but more
                >likely something else since the message comes up saying the voltage is too
                >high (or too low?). Grounding everything together is typically not a bad
                >idea but grounding a speaker wire is typically not done on purpose.

                If the audio output stage uses a bridged output stage (a common way
                to increase output power on a limited DC supply voltage), then
                connecting one side of the speaker to ground will put one of the
                halves of the audio amp across the DC supply, putting stress on that
                output transistor and any voltage regulators in circuit. Another
                potential issue is if voltage regulation takes place on the negative
                side of the supply. In this case, you'd short out the regulator
                and expose the radio to overvoltage.

                73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                http://vkradio.com
              • Alex
                ... Illegal voltage will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 21, 2012
                  --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, Lance <milcom_chaser@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Scott,
                  >
                  > Can you power the radio up on Alkaline Batteries, no external power source?
                  >
                  > Illegal Voltage means the source voltage your using is too high...

                  "Illegal voltage" will also be displayed if the voltage is too low (I think it appears around 5.0 V, it happens a lot when I power from an external battery that has run low.)
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.