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Re: [BCD396XT] Dstar

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  • MCH
    And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format, not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only) promoter of the format
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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      And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format,
      not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only) promoter of
      the format outside Japan.

      Joe M.

      Doug Johnson wrote:
      > Gidday All,
      >
      > Will the UBCD396XT decode the Icom based amateur Dstar ?
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Doug VK2XLJ
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
      >
    • MCH
      Actually there are D-STAR dongles out there that you can hook up to any radio or scanner. Joe M.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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        Actually there are D-STAR dongles out there
        that you can hook up to any radio or scanner.

        Joe M.

        Jim Walls wrote:
        > On 6/3/2012 16:38, Doug Johnson wrote:
        >> Gidday All,
        >>
        >> Will the UBCD396XT decode the Icom based amateur Dstar ?
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > Nothing will except another D-Star radio.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
        >
      • Alex
        If DVSI ever releases the code for the AMBE codec used in the radios then any radio like the 396XT could do it in its firmware.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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          If DVSI ever releases the code for the AMBE codec used in the radios then any radio like the 396XT could do it in its firmware.

          --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, MCH <mch@...> wrote:
          >
          > Actually there are D-STAR dongles out there
          > that you can hook up to any radio or scanner.
          >
          > Joe M.
          >
          > Jim Walls wrote:
          > > On 6/3/2012 16:38, Doug Johnson wrote:
          > >> Gidday All,
          > >>
          > >> Will the UBCD396XT decode the Icom based amateur Dstar ?
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > > Nothing will except another D-Star radio.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
          > >
          >
        • Alex
          Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven t seen any manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have held back (probably a
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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            Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven't seen any manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have held back (probably a wait-and-see).

            --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, MCH <mch@...> wrote:
            >
            > And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format,
            > not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only) promoter of
            > the format outside Japan.
            >
            > Joe M.
            >
            > Doug Johnson wrote:
            > > Gidday All,
            > >
            > > Will the UBCD396XT decode the Icom based amateur Dstar ?
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > >
            > > Doug VK2XLJ
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
            > >
            >
          • Yuni T. Runker
            The specification of the P25 versions are published. That option has always been there ... Winradio offers PC based decoding of IMBE. Don t know if they
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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              The specification of the P25 versions are published. That option has always been there ...

              Winradio offers PC based decoding of IMBE. Don't know if they support dstar.

              On Jun 4, 2012, at 4:06 PM, "Alex" <agcme2002@...> wrote:

              > If DVSI ever releases the code for the AMBE codec used in the radios then any radio like the 396XT could do it in its firmware.
              >
              > ---
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tony Langdon, VK3JED
              ... All the manufacturers have to do is include the right chip in their scanner to handle the AMBE audio (same as they do for IMBE that P25 uses). Probably be
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                At 07:06 AM 6/5/2012, you wrote:
                >If DVSI ever releases the code for the AMBE codec used in the radios
                >then any radio like the 396XT could do it in its firmware.

                All the manufacturers have to do is include the right chip in their
                scanner to handle the AMBE audio (same as they do for IMBE that P25
                uses). Probably be one that can do both formats, since both are DVSI
                products. The test of the D-STAR spec is open, and can (and has!) be
                implemented by third parties.

                73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                http://vkradio.com
              • Tony Langdon, VK3JED
                ... A number of ham groups, developers and smaller manufacturers. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                  At 07:08 AM 6/5/2012, you wrote:
                  >Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven't seen any
                  >manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have
                  >held back (probably a wait-and-see).

                  A number of ham groups, developers and smaller manufacturers.

                  73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                  http://vkradio.com
                • David Klippel
                  I believe you re right that aren t any radio manufactures even though Kenwood said they would and had a radio (built by Icom) initially that they since
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                    I believe you're right that aren't any radio manufactures even though
                    Kenwood said they would and had a radio (built by Icom) initially that
                    they since dropped. There are other manufactures providing a dongle
                    option for use on a computer.

                    Personally I don't understand how the FCC permitted this D-Star for
                    Amateur Radio. My understanding is that is it a licensed technology and
                    not open and free for anyone to use. This makes it more like an
                    encrypted/scrambled private transmission as well as a commercial pay to
                    play option which are counter to the basis of the hobby. I am sure this
                    is also a big part of its slow growth.

                    On 6/4/2012 5:08 PM, Alex wrote:
                    >
                    > Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven't seen any
                    > manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have
                    > held back (probably a wait-and-see).
                    >
                    > --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > MCH <mch@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format,
                    > > not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only)
                    > promoter of
                    > > the format outside Japan.
                    > >
                    > > Joe M.
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • MCH
                    Kenwood sells D-STAR radios in Japan. They have not marketed it in the USA (likely due to their market potential research). Upon further research, it looks
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                      Kenwood sells D-STAR radios in Japan. They have not marketed
                      it in the USA (likely due to their market potential research). Upon
                      further research, it looks like Kenwood has pulled out of the Japanese
                      market.

                      I'm sure it would be a similar decision on Uniden's part (for the USA
                      market). They have to look at the cost vs sales increase realized by the
                      availability of the format. From what I understand, they were offered a
                      license for OpenSky, but decided it was too high cost for the additional
                      market increase. Other scanner manufacturers likely came to the same
                      conclusion. Between the small market for Open Sky and the system issues
                      which threaten its future, it's probably not worth the investment.

                      While D-STAR has a much wider market base, it is really restricted to
                      ham radio which is not a big selling point for scanners. Most people
                      want scanners to monitor public safety agencies, not hams.

                      Joe M.

                      Alex wrote:
                      > Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven't seen any manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have held back (probably a wait-and-see).
                      >
                      > --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, MCH <mch@...> wrote:
                      >> And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format,
                      >> not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only) promoter of
                      >> the format outside Japan.
                      >>
                      >> Joe M.
                      >>
                      >> Doug Johnson wrote:
                      >>> Gidday All,
                      >>>
                      >>> Will the UBCD396XT decode the Icom based amateur Dstar ?
                      >>>
                      >>> Regards,
                      >>>
                      >>> Doug VK2XLJ
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                      >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      >>> Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
                      >>>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
                      >
                    • MCH
                      I think the big issue with its slow growth are the benefits vs cost issues. Most people have analog equipment. Relatively few have D-STAR. So, in an emergency
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                        I think the big issue with its slow growth are the benefits vs cost
                        issues. Most people have analog equipment. Relatively few have D-STAR.
                        So, in an emergency it will be primarily analog that will be useful.

                        Also, there is a difference between digital and encrypted. D-STAR is not
                        encrypted in any form, so it's legal per Part 97. You can purchase a
                        dongle and monitor the conversations.

                        Joe M.

                        David Klippel wrote:
                        > I believe you're right that aren't any radio manufactures even though
                        > Kenwood said they would and had a radio (built by Icom) initially that
                        > they since dropped. There are other manufactures providing a dongle
                        > option for use on a computer.
                        >
                        > Personally I don't understand how the FCC permitted this D-Star for
                        > Amateur Radio. My understanding is that is it a licensed technology and
                        > not open and free for anyone to use. This makes it more like an
                        > encrypted/scrambled private transmission as well as a commercial pay to
                        > play option which are counter to the basis of the hobby. I am sure this
                        > is also a big part of its slow growth.
                        >
                        > On 6/4/2012 5:08 PM, Alex wrote:
                        >> Who else is promoting D-STAR? Other than Icom I haven't seen any
                        >> manufacturer interested in using it. Kenwood and Yaesu/Vertex have
                        >> held back (probably a wait-and-see).
                        >>
                        >> --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:BCD396XT%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        >> MCH <mch@...> wrote:
                        >>> And technically speaking (AKA picking nits), D-STAR is a JARL format,
                        >>> not Icom. Icom just happens to be the largest (but not only)
                        >> promoter of
                        >>> the format outside Japan.
                        >>>
                        >>> Joe M.
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2425.1.1/5044 - Release Date: 06/04/12 02:35:00
                        >
                      • David Klippel
                        Technically you are correct D-STAR is open but the codec is not and requires a license to decode so in function it is essentially encrypted/scrambled . Yes,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 4, 2012
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                          Technically you are correct D-STAR is open but the codec is not and
                          requires a license to decode so in function it is essentially
                          'encrypted/scrambled'. Yes, you can purchase a dongle but it is still
                          using a license Codec that you paid for. You can't legally reverse
                          engineer the Codec and listen or transmit. The cost benefit is a big
                          part of the issue and with just one manufacture using it does not help.
                          If there were more options and free/open Codec in use it would be much
                          further along in growth and acceptance.

                          I feel a similar thing is happening with HD Radio. There are plenty of
                          broadcasters but unfortunately not many radios with it built in. The car
                          radio is becoming common to have HD. If you want to listen to HD on the
                          beach or park where a small portable radio would be used or even in a
                          home stereo or A/V receiver your options are very limited.

                          This could go on but as for the original scanning question they need a
                          license for the Codec it is a small audience for them to add the cost.
                          Though as a Ham it would great to be able to monitor the D-STAR activity
                          and maybe become convinced it is worth the cost.

                          On 6/4/2012 6:32 PM, MCH wrote:
                          >
                          > I think the big issue with its slow growth are the benefits vs cost
                          > issues. Most people have analog equipment. Relatively few have D-STAR.
                          > So, in an emergency it will be primarily analog that will be useful.
                          >
                          > Also, there is a difference between digital and encrypted. D-STAR is not
                          > encrypted in any form, so it's legal per Part 97. You can purchase a
                          > dongle and monitor the conversations.
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dean B. Dalrymple
                          About a year and half ago the club I was part of (before moving to a different city) invited a rep from Icom to come in and talk about their radios with the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 5, 2012
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                            About a year and half ago the club I was part of (before moving to a
                            different city) invited a rep from Icom to come in and talk about
                            their radios with the focus primarily on the D-Star radios. While the
                            technology is impressive, I don't see it ever becoming wide spread in
                            the hobby.

                            As Joe has pointed out, in an emergency it will be primarily analog
                            that is used. Where I live ARES is part of the county's emergency
                            plan so our communications need to be easily and inexpensively
                            monitored by numerous agencies from local emergency services to the
                            Red Cross. Costs of D-Star radios would prevent that.

                            Dean VA3DBD


                            At 06:32 PM 6/4/2012, MCH wrote:
                            >I think the big issue with its slow growth are the benefits vs cost
                            >issues. Most people have analog equipment. Relatively few have D-STAR.
                            >So, in an emergency it will be primarily analog that will be useful.
                          • Alex
                            PC board real estate is expensive, microcode space isn t. Given the component density already in the 396 I don t think it is quite so easy to cram one more
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 5, 2012
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                              PC board real estate is expensive, microcode space isn't. Given the component density already in the 396 I don't think it is quite so easy to cram one more chip in there. If Uniden really wanted D-STAR then they'd likely just license the codec algorithms and code that into the microprocessor just like all the other digital codecs that are currently processed.

                              --- In BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > At 07:06 AM 6/5/2012, you wrote:
                              > >If DVSI ever releases the code for the AMBE codec used in the radios
                              > >then any radio like the 396XT could do it in its firmware.
                              >
                              > All the manufacturers have to do is include the right chip in their
                              > scanner to handle the AMBE audio (same as they do for IMBE that P25
                              > uses). Probably be one that can do both formats, since both are DVSI
                              > products. The test of the D-STAR spec is open, and can (and has!) be
                              > implemented by third parties.
                              >
                              > 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
                              > http://vkradio.com
                              >
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