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Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems

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  • MCH
    It s not the timing that is the problem - it s the deviation of the signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were perfect, the setting of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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      It's not the timing that is the problem - it's the deviation of the
      signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were
      perfect, the setting of '8' would have worked fine on all systems. Still
      the same causes... sloppy installation/maintenance.

      Global warming is very real. It happens in cycles. We happen to be in
      the higher part of a cycle right now. The increased solar activity might
      have something to do with it, too. We gotta stop making the sun hotter!
      ;-> (as if we've ever done anything to cause any changes to the sun...)

      As far as us *causing* global warming, I agree - mostly cow doo-doo.
      Although there is a valid argument about there being more people living
      on the planet right now than ever before. That could cause warming, too
      - much like getting a large number of people in a room - even in the
      winter you need to run the A/C or open some windows. But, the only
      solution to that is to kill people. I don't think many would agree that
      is a viable option.

      But I digress...

      Joe M.

      johnstark wrote:
      > The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the
      > scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem
      > is many of the systems aren't actually using that specification and then
      > decoding is an issue. I don't see any scanner being able to "fix" that, it's
      > up to the radio system techs to bring them into spec, not Uniden or GRE for
      > that matter.
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
      > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
      > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
      >
      >
      >
      > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
      > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
      > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
      > mixed results with them all.
      >
      > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
      > poor manufacturing or global warming?
      >
      >
      >
      > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
      > 2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
      >
      >
      >
      > As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
      > timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
      > thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
      > Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
      > coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
      > get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
      > $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
      > Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
      > <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
      > Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
      > Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
      > it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
      > it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
      > baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
      > garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
      > with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
      > with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
      > Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
      > Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
      > area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
      > country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
      > testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
      > Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
      > that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
      > unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
      > simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
      > Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
      > radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
      > "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
      > you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
      > upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
      > mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
      > portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
      > the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
      > same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
      > these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
      > to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
      > get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
      > band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
      > it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
      > upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
      > firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
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    • MCH
      Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but compared to the ingress at the antenna it s negligible. I just don t see the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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        Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but
        compared to the 'ingress' at the antenna it's negligible. I just don't
        see the relationship that poor coax = more overload. If anything, the
        signal loss would reduce the overload potential.

        There is a valid argument that better coax = more overload since there
        would be more signal present.

        Joe M.

        johnstark wrote:
        > The cheap stuff doesn't have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more
        > issues.
        >
        > John
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "MCH" <mch@...>
        > To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
        > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
        >
        >
        >> Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
        >> more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
        >> stronger signals and more overload.
        >>
        >> Joe M.
        >>
        >> johnstark wrote:
        >>> I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use
        >>> cheap
        >>> coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
        >>> regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
        >>> antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using
        >>> thin
        >>> LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
        >>> Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
        >>> got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical
        >>> noise
        >>> of the car.
        >>>
        >>> John
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ----- Original Message -----
        >>> From: "MCH" <mch@...>
        >>> To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
        >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
        >>> Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
        >>>> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
        >>>> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
        >>>> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
        >>>>
        >>>> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
        >>>> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
        >>>> front end of a scanner.
        >>>>
        >>>> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
        >>>> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
        >>>> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
        >>>>
        >>>> Joe M.
        >>>>
        >>>> johnstark wrote:
        >>>>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
        >>>>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> John
        >>>> ------------------------------------
        >>>>
        >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
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        >>>
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        >>
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        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
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        >
      • Mike
        A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps, we ve had them
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
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          A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
          and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
          we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.

          Mike

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
          Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


          Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
          gllobal
          warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
          needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
          P16
          statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
          microwave
          sites because they got too cold and failed.

          John


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
          To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
          Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



          Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
          am
          also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
          trunking
          scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
          had
          mixed results with them all.

          John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
          poor manufacturing or global warming?
        • johnstark
          I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with wind chills as low -35 John ... From: Mike To:
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
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            I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with
            wind chills as low -35

            John


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mike" <pyro68@...>
            To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


            >A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
            > and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
            > we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.
            >
            > Mike
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
            > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
            >
            >
            > Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
            > gllobal
            > warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
            > needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
            > P16
            > statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
            > microwave
            > sites because they got too cold and failed.
            >
            > John
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
            > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
            > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
            >
            >
            >
            > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
            > am
            > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
            > trunking
            > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
            > had
            > mixed results with them all.
            >
            > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
            > poor manufacturing or global warming?
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
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