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Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems

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  • Jason W. Watts
    John, That part about the $3000 Motorola XTS and the $500 scanner comparison point you make is a good point. I ve not had opportunity to really compare audio
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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      John,


      That part about the $3000 Motorola XTS and the $500 scanner comparison point you make is a good point. I've not had opportunity to really compare audio with the two, so I wasn't the one who brought that one up. I was just relating my experiences with the scanner. I've had luck with the 396 in Cedar Rapids and really look forward to getting the 396XT.


      Jason W. Watts
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: johnstark
      To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:00
      Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


      As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
      timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
      thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
      Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
      coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
      get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
      $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.

      John

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>
      To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AM
      Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems

      > The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS
      > that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then
      > it does have a hiccup, but it is very much usable.
      >
      > I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600 baud system. I was in the
      > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded garbled. I was on the move
      > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around with settings much. Also,
      > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems with the system itself.
      >
      >
      > Jason Watts
      > Cedar Rapids, IA
      > -------------- Original message from MCH <mch@...>: --------------
      >
      > Threaded...
      >
      > Peter Elke wrote:
      >> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
      >> simulcast system.
      >>
      >> I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
      >> states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
      >> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
      >> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
      >> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
      >> simulcast areas.
      >
      > That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.
      >
      >> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
      >> County, San Diego.
      >>
      >> It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
      >> decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.
      >
      > Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although
      > my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the
      > firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.
      >
      > What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable
      > and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user
      > radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.
      >
      >> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
      >> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
      >> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.
      >>
      >> If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
      >> lugging single band portables around with me on planes.
      >
      > Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply
      > haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things
      > that you cannot do with the latest firmware.
      >
      > Joe M.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • MCH
      Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities of the XTS as well
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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        Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
        that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
        of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
        still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.

        The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
        unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
        front end of a scanner.

        It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
        ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
        sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.

        Joe M.

        johnstark wrote:
        > Also you honestly cannot compare a
        > $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
        >
        > John
      • johnstark
        Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance, gllobal warming is a joke in my book, and it won t affect the system other than needing
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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          Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance, gllobal
          warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
          needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a P16
          statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some microwave
          sites because they got too cold and failed.

          John


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
          To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
          Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



          Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
          also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
          scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
          mixed results with them all.

          John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
          poor manufacturing or global warming?



          To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
          2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



          As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
          timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
          thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
          Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
          coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
          get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
          $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
          Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
          <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
          Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
          Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
          it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
          it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
          baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
          garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
          with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
          with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
          Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
          Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
          area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
          country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
          testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
          Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
          that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
          unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
          simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
          Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
          radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
          "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
          you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
          upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
          mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
          portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
          the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
          same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
          these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
          to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
          get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
          band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
          it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
          upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
          firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
          removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>





          _________________________________________________________________
          Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
          http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • johnstark
          I own a PSR 600 and don t see an overload issue, but then I don t use cheap coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a regular $29
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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            I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use cheap
            coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
            regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
            antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using thin
            LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
            Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
            got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical noise
            of the car.

            John


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "MCH" <mch@...>
            To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
            Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


            > Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
            > that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
            > of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
            > still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
            >
            > The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
            > unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
            > front end of a scanner.
            >
            > It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
            > ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
            > sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
            >
            > Joe M.
            >
            > johnstark wrote:
            >> Also you honestly cannot compare a
            >> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
            >>
            >> John
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • johnstark
            The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem is many
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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              The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the
              scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem
              is many of the systems aren't actually using that specification and then
              decoding is an issue. I don't see any scanner being able to "fix" that, it's
              up to the radio system techs to bring them into spec, not Uniden or GRE for
              that matter.

              John


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
              To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
              Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



              Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
              also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
              scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
              mixed results with them all.

              John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
              poor manufacturing or global warming?



              To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
              2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



              As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
              timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
              thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
              Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
              coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
              get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
              $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
              Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
              <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
              Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
              Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
              it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
              it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
              baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
              garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
              with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
              with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
              Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
              Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
              area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
              country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
              testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
              Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
              that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
              unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
              simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
              Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
              radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
              "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
              you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
              upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
              mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
              portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
              the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
              same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
              these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
              to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
              get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
              band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
              it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
              upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
              firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
              removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>





              _________________________________________________________________
              Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
              http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • MCH
              Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in stronger
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                stronger signals and more overload.

                Joe M.

                johnstark wrote:
                > I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use cheap
                > coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                > regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                > antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using thin
                > LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                > Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                > got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical noise
                > of the car.
                >
                > John
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                > To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                >
                >
                >> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                >> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                >> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                >> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                >>
                >> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                >> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                >> front end of a scanner.
                >>
                >> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                >> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                >> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                >>
                >> Joe M.
                >>
                >> johnstark wrote:
                >>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                >>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                >>>
                >>> John
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • johnstark
                The cheap stuff doesn t have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more issues. John ... From: MCH To: Sent:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                  The cheap stuff doesn't have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more
                  issues.

                  John

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                  To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                  > Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                  > more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                  > stronger signals and more overload.
                  >
                  > Joe M.
                  >
                  > johnstark wrote:
                  >> I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use
                  >> cheap
                  >> coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                  >> regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                  >> antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using
                  >> thin
                  >> LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                  >> Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                  >> got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical
                  >> noise
                  >> of the car.
                  >>
                  >> John
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                  >> To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                  >> Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                  >>> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                  >>> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                  >>> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                  >>>
                  >>> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                  >>> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                  >>> front end of a scanner.
                  >>>
                  >>> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                  >>> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                  >>> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                  >>>
                  >>> Joe M.
                  >>>
                  >>> johnstark wrote:
                  >>>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                  >>>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> John
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • MCH
                  It s not the timing that is the problem - it s the deviation of the signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were perfect, the setting of
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                    It's not the timing that is the problem - it's the deviation of the
                    signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were
                    perfect, the setting of '8' would have worked fine on all systems. Still
                    the same causes... sloppy installation/maintenance.

                    Global warming is very real. It happens in cycles. We happen to be in
                    the higher part of a cycle right now. The increased solar activity might
                    have something to do with it, too. We gotta stop making the sun hotter!
                    ;-> (as if we've ever done anything to cause any changes to the sun...)

                    As far as us *causing* global warming, I agree - mostly cow doo-doo.
                    Although there is a valid argument about there being more people living
                    on the planet right now than ever before. That could cause warming, too
                    - much like getting a large number of people in a room - even in the
                    winter you need to run the A/C or open some windows. But, the only
                    solution to that is to kill people. I don't think many would agree that
                    is a viable option.

                    But I digress...

                    Joe M.

                    johnstark wrote:
                    > The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the
                    > scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem
                    > is many of the systems aren't actually using that specification and then
                    > decoding is an issue. I don't see any scanner being able to "fix" that, it's
                    > up to the radio system techs to bring them into spec, not Uniden or GRE for
                    > that matter.
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                    > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
                    > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
                    > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
                    > mixed results with them all.
                    >
                    > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                    > poor manufacturing or global warming?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
                    > 2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
                    > timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
                    > thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
                    > Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
                    > coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
                    > get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
                    > $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
                    > Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
                    > <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
                    > Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
                    > Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
                    > it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
                    > it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
                    > baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
                    > garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
                    > with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
                    > with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
                    > Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
                    > Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
                    > area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
                    > country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
                    > testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
                    > Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
                    > that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
                    > unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
                    > simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
                    > Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
                    > radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
                    > "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
                    > you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
                    > upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
                    > mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
                    > portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
                    > the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
                    > same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
                    > these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
                    > to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
                    > get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
                    > band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
                    > it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
                    > upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
                    > firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                    > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • MCH
                    Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but compared to the ingress at the antenna it s negligible. I just don t see the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but
                      compared to the 'ingress' at the antenna it's negligible. I just don't
                      see the relationship that poor coax = more overload. If anything, the
                      signal loss would reduce the overload potential.

                      There is a valid argument that better coax = more overload since there
                      would be more signal present.

                      Joe M.

                      johnstark wrote:
                      > The cheap stuff doesn't have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more
                      > issues.
                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                      > To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                      >
                      >
                      >> Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                      >> more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                      >> stronger signals and more overload.
                      >>
                      >> Joe M.
                      >>
                      >> johnstark wrote:
                      >>> I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use
                      >>> cheap
                      >>> coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                      >>> regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                      >>> antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using
                      >>> thin
                      >>> LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                      >>> Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                      >>> got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical
                      >>> noise
                      >>> of the car.
                      >>>
                      >>> John
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                      >>> From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                      >>> To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                      >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                      >>> Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                      >>>> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                      >>>> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                      >>>> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                      >>>> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                      >>>> front end of a scanner.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                      >>>> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                      >>>> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Joe M.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> johnstark wrote:
                      >>>>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                      >>>>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> John
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Mike
                      A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps, we ve had them
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
                        and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
                        we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.

                        Mike

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                        Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
                        gllobal
                        warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
                        needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
                        P16
                        statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
                        microwave
                        sites because they got too cold and failed.

                        John


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                        To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                        Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                        Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
                        am
                        also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
                        trunking
                        scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
                        had
                        mixed results with them all.

                        John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                        poor manufacturing or global warming?
                      • johnstark
                        I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with wind chills as low -35 John ... From: Mike To:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with
                          wind chills as low -35

                          John


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Mike" <pyro68@...>
                          To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:23 PM
                          Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                          >A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
                          > and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
                          > we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.
                          >
                          > Mike
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                          >
                          >
                          > Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
                          > gllobal
                          > warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
                          > needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
                          > P16
                          > statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
                          > microwave
                          > sites because they got too cold and failed.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                          > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
                          > am
                          > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
                          > trunking
                          > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
                          > had
                          > mixed results with them all.
                          >
                          > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                          > poor manufacturing or global warming?
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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