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Decoding simulcast P25 systems

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  • Peter Elke
    My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25 simulcast system. I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 20, 2009
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      My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
      simulcast system.

      I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
      states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
      firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
      or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
      very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
      simulcast areas.

      My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
      County, San Diego.

      It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
      decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.

      I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
      sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
      mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.

      If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
      lugging single band portables around with me on planes.
    • MCH
      Threaded... ... That s odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system. ... Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although my 396
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 20, 2009
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        Threaded...

        Peter Elke wrote:
        > My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
        > simulcast system.
        >
        > I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
        > states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
        > firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
        > or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
        > very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
        > simulcast areas.

        That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.

        > My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
        > County, San Diego.
        >
        > It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
        > decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.

        Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although
        my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the
        firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.

        What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable
        and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user
        radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.

        > I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
        > sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
        > mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.
        >
        > If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
        > lugging single band portables around with me on planes.

        Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply
        haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things
        that you cannot do with the latest firmware.

        Joe M.
      • Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH
        The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then it does have
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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          The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then it does have a hiccup, but it is very much usable.

          I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600 baud system. I was in the Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded garbled. I was on the move in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around with settings much. Also, it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems with the system itself.


          Jason Watts
          Cedar Rapids, IA
          -------------- Original message from MCH <mch@...>: --------------

          Threaded...

          Peter Elke wrote:
          > My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
          > simulcast system.
          >
          > I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
          > states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
          > firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
          > or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
          > very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
          > simulcast areas.

          That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.

          > My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
          > County, San Diego.
          >
          > It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
          > decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.

          Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although
          my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the
          firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.

          What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable
          and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user
          radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.

          > I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
          > sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
          > mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.
          >
          > If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
          > lugging single band portables around with me on planes.

          Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply
          haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things
          that you cannot do with the latest firmware.

          Joe M.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • johnstark
          As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and thats when you
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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            As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
            timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
            thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
            Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
            coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
            get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
            $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.

            John


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>
            To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AM
            Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


            > The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS
            > that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then
            > it does have a hiccup, but it is very much usable.
            >
            > I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600 baud system. I was in the
            > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded garbled. I was on the move
            > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around with settings much. Also,
            > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems with the system itself.
            >
            >
            > Jason Watts
            > Cedar Rapids, IA
            > -------------- Original message from MCH <mch@...>: --------------
            >
            > Threaded...
            >
            > Peter Elke wrote:
            >> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
            >> simulcast system.
            >>
            >> I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
            >> states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
            >> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
            >> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
            >> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
            >> simulcast areas.
            >
            > That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.
            >
            >> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
            >> County, San Diego.
            >>
            >> It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
            >> decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.
            >
            > Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although
            > my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the
            > firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.
            >
            > What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable
            > and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user
            > radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.
            >
            >> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
            >> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
            >> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.
            >>
            >> If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
            >> lugging single band portables around with me on planes.
            >
            > Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply
            > haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things
            > that you cannot do with the latest firmware.
            >
            > Joe M.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Larry Koch
            Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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              Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had mixed results with them all.

              John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design, poor manufacturing or global warming?



              To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



              As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system. Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600 baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> -------------- Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>> Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>





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            • Jason W. Watts
              John, That part about the $3000 Motorola XTS and the $500 scanner comparison point you make is a good point. I ve not had opportunity to really compare audio
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                John,


                That part about the $3000 Motorola XTS and the $500 scanner comparison point you make is a good point. I've not had opportunity to really compare audio with the two, so I wasn't the one who brought that one up. I was just relating my experiences with the scanner. I've had luck with the 396 in Cedar Rapids and really look forward to getting the 396XT.


                Jason W. Watts
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: johnstark
                To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:00
                Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
                timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
                thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
                Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
                coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
                get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
                $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.

                John

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>
                To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AM
                Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems

                > The 396 works fine on the Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS
                > that I use the 396 for. And it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then
                > it does have a hiccup, but it is very much usable.
                >
                > I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600 baud system. I was in the
                > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded garbled. I was on the move
                > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around with settings much. Also,
                > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems with the system itself.
                >
                >
                > Jason Watts
                > Cedar Rapids, IA
                > -------------- Original message from MCH <mch@...>: --------------
                >
                > Threaded...
                >
                > Peter Elke wrote:
                >> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an area with a P25
                >> simulcast system.
                >>
                >> I have been traveling around the country and testing the BCD396T in
                >> states where they are common. In my testing I compare the 396 (with
                >> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro Saber (Mot Type II Digital)
                >> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is that the the 396 works
                >> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost unusable in
                >> simulcast areas.
                >
                > That's odd. It works fine on my local P25 simulcast system.
                >
                >> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Denver, Orange
                >> County, San Diego.
                >>
                >> It is amazing how the Motorola radios never hiccup and the 396 stops
                >> decoding even after playing with the "hold key" adjustments.
                >
                > Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are you using? Although
                > my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that upgrades to the
                > firmware could have made a difference on the systems you mentioned.
                >
                > What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS portable
                > and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when the user
                > radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the same.
                >
                >> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of these
                >> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how to
                >> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.
                >>
                >> If they get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop
                >> lugging single band portables around with me on planes.
                >
                > Again, maybe the answer is that it's already been done and you simply
                > haven't bothered to install the upgrades. You've described doing things
                > that you cannot do with the latest firmware.
                >
                > Joe M.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • MCH
                Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities of the XTS as well
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                  Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                  that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                  of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                  still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.

                  The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                  unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                  front end of a scanner.

                  It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                  ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                  sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.

                  Joe M.

                  johnstark wrote:
                  > Also you honestly cannot compare a
                  > $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                  >
                  > John
                • johnstark
                  Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance, gllobal warming is a joke in my book, and it won t affect the system other than needing
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                    Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance, gllobal
                    warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
                    needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a P16
                    statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some microwave
                    sites because they got too cold and failed.

                    John


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                    To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                    Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                    Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
                    also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
                    scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
                    mixed results with them all.

                    John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                    poor manufacturing or global warming?



                    To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
                    2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                    As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
                    timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
                    thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
                    Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
                    coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
                    get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
                    $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
                    Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
                    <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
                    Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
                    Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
                    it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
                    it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
                    baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
                    garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
                    with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
                    with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
                    Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
                    Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
                    area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
                    country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
                    testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
                    Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
                    that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
                    unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
                    simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
                    Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
                    radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
                    "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
                    you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
                    upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
                    mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
                    portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
                    the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
                    same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
                    these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
                    to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
                    get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
                    band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
                    it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
                    upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
                    firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>





                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                    http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • johnstark
                    I own a PSR 600 and don t see an overload issue, but then I don t use cheap coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a regular $29
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                      I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use cheap
                      coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                      regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                      antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using thin
                      LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                      Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                      got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical noise
                      of the car.

                      John


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                      To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                      Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                      > Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                      > that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                      > of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                      > still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                      >
                      > The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                      > unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                      > front end of a scanner.
                      >
                      > It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                      > ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                      > sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                      >
                      > Joe M.
                      >
                      > johnstark wrote:
                      >> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                      >> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                      >>
                      >> John
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • johnstark
                      The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem is many
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
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                        The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the
                        scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem
                        is many of the systems aren't actually using that specification and then
                        decoding is an issue. I don't see any scanner being able to "fix" that, it's
                        up to the radio system techs to bring them into spec, not Uniden or GRE for
                        that matter.

                        John


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                        To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                        Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                        Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
                        also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
                        scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
                        mixed results with them all.

                        John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                        poor manufacturing or global warming?



                        To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
                        2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                        As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
                        timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
                        thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
                        Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
                        coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
                        get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
                        $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
                        Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
                        <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
                        Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
                        Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
                        it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
                        it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
                        baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
                        garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
                        with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
                        with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
                        Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
                        Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
                        area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
                        country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
                        testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
                        Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
                        that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
                        unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
                        simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
                        Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
                        radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
                        "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
                        you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
                        upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
                        mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
                        portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
                        the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
                        same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
                        these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
                        to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
                        get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
                        band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
                        it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
                        upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
                        firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>





                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                        http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • MCH
                        Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in stronger
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                          more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                          stronger signals and more overload.

                          Joe M.

                          johnstark wrote:
                          > I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use cheap
                          > coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                          > regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                          > antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using thin
                          > LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                          > Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                          > got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical noise
                          > of the car.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                          > To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                          >
                          >
                          >> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                          >> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                          >> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                          >> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                          >>
                          >> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                          >> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                          >> front end of a scanner.
                          >>
                          >> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                          >> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                          >> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                          >>
                          >> Joe M.
                          >>
                          >> johnstark wrote:
                          >>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                          >>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                          >>>
                          >>> John
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • johnstark
                          The cheap stuff doesn t have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more issues. John ... From: MCH To: Sent:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The cheap stuff doesn't have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more
                            issues.

                            John

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                            To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
                            Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                            > Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                            > more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                            > stronger signals and more overload.
                            >
                            > Joe M.
                            >
                            > johnstark wrote:
                            >> I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use
                            >> cheap
                            >> coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                            >> regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                            >> antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using
                            >> thin
                            >> LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                            >> Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                            >> got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical
                            >> noise
                            >> of the car.
                            >>
                            >> John
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                            >> To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                            >> Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                            >>> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                            >>> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                            >>> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                            >>>
                            >>> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                            >>> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                            >>> front end of a scanner.
                            >>>
                            >>> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                            >>> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                            >>> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                            >>>
                            >>> Joe M.
                            >>>
                            >>> johnstark wrote:
                            >>>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                            >>>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> John
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • MCH
                            It s not the timing that is the problem - it s the deviation of the signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were perfect, the setting of
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It's not the timing that is the problem - it's the deviation of the
                              signal. Too many systems are too far out of spec. If they all were
                              perfect, the setting of '8' would have worked fine on all systems. Still
                              the same causes... sloppy installation/maintenance.

                              Global warming is very real. It happens in cycles. We happen to be in
                              the higher part of a cycle right now. The increased solar activity might
                              have something to do with it, too. We gotta stop making the sun hotter!
                              ;-> (as if we've ever done anything to cause any changes to the sun...)

                              As far as us *causing* global warming, I agree - mostly cow doo-doo.
                              Although there is a valid argument about there being more people living
                              on the planet right now than ever before. That could cause warming, too
                              - much like getting a large number of people in a room - even in the
                              winter you need to run the A/C or open some windows. But, the only
                              solution to that is to kill people. I don't think many would agree that
                              is a viable option.

                              But I digress...

                              Joe M.

                              johnstark wrote:
                              > The biggest issue, and it has been stated by Upman in the past is that the
                              > scanners are built to use the SPECIFIED timing for P25 systems, the problem
                              > is many of the systems aren't actually using that specification and then
                              > decoding is an issue. I don't see any scanner being able to "fix" that, it's
                              > up to the radio system techs to bring them into spec, not Uniden or GRE for
                              > that matter.
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                              > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I am
                              > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital trunking
                              > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and had
                              > mixed results with them all.
                              >
                              > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                              > poor manufacturing or global warming?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: BCD396XT@yahoogroups.comFrom: johnstark@...: Wed, 21 Jan
                              > 2009 11:00:44 -0500Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > As has been said before each P25 is supposed to be set up with specific
                              > timing, the problem is many systems are not set up within the specs and
                              > thats when you have decode problems, it's multiplied on a simulcast system.
                              > Additionally reception is differents too, lower power for the same, or more
                              > coverage. Antenna choice, even weather make huge differences in whether you
                              > get clean clear transmissions or not. Also you honestly cannot compare a
                              > $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.John----- Original
                              > Message ----- From: "Jason W. Watts, KB0KGH" <KB0KGH@...>To:
                              > <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:23 AMSubject:
                              > Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems> The 396 works fine on the
                              > Cedar Rapids Motorola Type II 3600 Digital TRS > that I use the 396 for. And
                              > it is a 2 site simulcast system. Now and then > it does have a hiccup, but
                              > it is very much usable.>> I have barely tested it on a P25 Standard 9600
                              > baud system. I was in the > Quad Cities on the Illinois side and it sounded
                              > garbled. I was on the move > in the vehicle, and couldn't really play around
                              > with settings much. Also, > it was STARCOM 21. I've heard of some problems
                              > with the system itself.>>> Jason Watts> Cedar Rapids, IA> --------------
                              > Original message from MCH <mch@...>: -------------- >> Threaded...>>
                              > Peter Elke wrote:>> My hope in that the Uniden development team move to an
                              > area with a P25>> simulcast system.>>>> I have been traveling around the
                              > country and testing the BCD396T in>> states where they are common. In my
                              > testing I compare the 396 (with>> firware v2.9 and 3.01) with ether an Astro
                              > Saber (Mot Type II Digital)>> or an XTS2500 (for 100% P25). What I found is
                              > that the the 396 works>> very well on single transmitter sites and is almost
                              > unusable in>> simulcast areas.>> That's odd. It works fine on my local P25
                              > simulcast system.>>> My testing was in Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans,
                              > Denver, Orange>> County, San Diego.>>>> It is amazing how the Motorola
                              > radios never hiccup and the 396 stops>> decoding even after playing with the
                              > "hold key" adjustments.>> Hold key adjustments? What version of firmware are
                              > you using? Although> my 396 has never sounded bad, it's possible that
                              > upgrades to the> firmware could have made a difference on the systems you
                              > mentioned.>> What's even more odd is that I have heard anomalies on my XTS
                              > portable> and XTL mobiles. Granted, the 396 will sometimes, too, but when
                              > the user> radios do it too, I doubt there is anything that would not do the
                              > same.>>> I am confident that if the development team lived near one of
                              > these>> sites (and lived with the results daily) they would discover how
                              > to>> mathematically work out the trick of multipath decoding.>>>> If they
                              > get this right I will buy both a 396XT and a 996XT and stop>> lugging single
                              > band portables around with me on planes.>> Again, maybe the answer is that
                              > it's already been done and you simply> haven't bothered to install the
                              > upgrades. You've described doing things> that you cannot do with the latest
                              > firmware.>> Joe M.>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]>>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Windows LiveT: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
                              > http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • MCH
                              Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but compared to the ingress at the antenna it s negligible. I just don t see the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes, it can allow for additional signal loss and signal ingress, but
                                compared to the 'ingress' at the antenna it's negligible. I just don't
                                see the relationship that poor coax = more overload. If anything, the
                                signal loss would reduce the overload potential.

                                There is a valid argument that better coax = more overload since there
                                would be more signal present.

                                Joe M.

                                johnstark wrote:
                                > The cheap stuff doesn't have good shielding Joe..... that allows for more
                                > issues.
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                                > To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:01 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                                >
                                >
                                >> Other than poor connections at the connectors, how would poor coax cause
                                >> more overload? If anything better coax will have less loss resulting in
                                >> stronger signals and more overload.
                                >>
                                >> Joe M.
                                >>
                                >> johnstark wrote:
                                >>> I own a PSR 600 and don't see an overload issue, but then I don't use
                                >>> cheap
                                >>> coax too, which I believe makes a huge difference. As a test I used a
                                >>> regular $29 CB antenna and it's built in coax and then my own coax and
                                >>> antenna, the cheap junk got lots of interference while my setup using
                                >>> thin
                                >>> LMR400 got none. I'd say the coax is a major contributor to problems.
                                >>> Another thing I found was that with the car running, or even the key on I
                                >>> got more noise as well, the cheap stuff was picking up the electrical
                                >>> noise
                                >>> of the car.
                                >>>
                                >>> John
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                >>> From: "MCH" <mch@...>
                                >>> To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                                >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:33 PM
                                >>> Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>> Given the price difference, I think the 396 does a great job. Much of
                                >>>> that price difference is going to be due to the transmitting abilities
                                >>>> of the XTS as well as some additional P25 VOCODER licensing fees, but
                                >>>> still, for $500 the 396 holds it's own very well.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> The XTS does have better sensitivity, but that is to be expected of a
                                >>>> unit designed for a specific band. You cannot compare that to the broad
                                >>>> front end of a scanner.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> It's probably better that the 396 doesn't have more sensitivity - just
                                >>>> ask any GRE scanner owner who travels into 'RF rich' areas. Their slight
                                >>>> sensitivity advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Joe M.
                                >>>>
                                >>>> johnstark wrote:
                                >>>>> Also you honestly cannot compare a
                                >>>>> $3000 radio to a $500 scanner.... thats just common sense.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> John
                                >>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>
                                >>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>
                                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >> ------------------------------------
                                >>
                                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Mike
                                A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps, we ve had them
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
                                  and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
                                  we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.

                                  Mike

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                                  Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
                                  gllobal
                                  warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
                                  needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
                                  P16
                                  statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
                                  microwave
                                  sites because they got too cold and failed.

                                  John


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                                  To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems



                                  Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
                                  am
                                  also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
                                  trunking
                                  scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
                                  had
                                  mixed results with them all.

                                  John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                                  poor manufacturing or global warming?
                                • johnstark
                                  I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with wind chills as low -35 John ... From: Mike To:
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have no clue, but they failed when it was between 10 above and -12 with
                                    wind chills as low -35

                                    John


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Mike" <pyro68@...>
                                    To: <BCD396XT@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 5:23 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems


                                    >A little OT, but what brand of microwaves? We run Harris Constellations
                                    > and while they normally run between 50 and 80 degrees ambient temps,
                                    > we've had them run fine as low as 35 degrees in the site.
                                    >
                                    > Mike
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "johnstark" <johnstark@...>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:33 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sloppy install to start with, and not fixing it during maintenance,
                                    > gllobal
                                    > warming is a joke in my book, and it won't affect the system other than
                                    > needing better cooling in the summer. Kind of odd situation here with a
                                    > P16
                                    > statewide system last week where they had to put heaters at some
                                    > microwave
                                    > sites because they got too cold and failed.
                                    >
                                    > John
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Larry Koch" <larrykoch@...>
                                    > To: <bcd396xt@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:21 AM
                                    > Subject: RE: [BCD396XT] Decoding simulcast P25 systems
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Good explanation John. I have the same problem as Peter described and I
                                    > am
                                    > also hoping that the XT will do better. I have tried every digital
                                    > trunking
                                    > scanner on the market (RS 2096, 96 - Uniden 996, 396 - PSR 600, 500) and
                                    > had
                                    > mixed results with them all.
                                    >
                                    > John, is the timing problem caused by sloppy maintenance, faulty design,
                                    > poor manufacturing or global warming?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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