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Re: Meeting in Germantown, Maryland

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  • Steve Karg
    Hi Lighting Applications Working Group! I have been advised that the block of rooms at the Hampton Inn are reserved under the name Mike Whitcomb, not ASHRAE.
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 17, 2005
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      Hi Lighting Applications Working Group!

      I have been advised that the block of rooms at the Hampton Inn are
      reserved under the name Mike Whitcomb, not ASHRAE. Give them both
      and it works just fine.

      Hampton Inn
      20260 Goldenrod Lane
      Germantown, MD 20876
      Hotel Contact: Giulia
      Phone: +1 (301) 428-1300
      Fax: +1 (301) 428-9034
      website: http://www.hampton-inn.com/hi/germantown-gaithers
      Block: Mike Whitcomb and ASHRAE
      Rate: $109.00 + tax
      Location: Get maps and directions from the hotel website. The
      Hampton Inn is located on property adjacent to the Germantown Campus
      and is a 5 minute walk through parking lots that adjoin the campus
      to the meeting rooms.

      Best Regards,

      Steve Karg
      Lithonia Lighting
    • Steve Karg
      Hi Lighting Applications Working Group! Here are the draft minutes of our meeting in Germantown, Maryland. Please post any corrections to this list:
      Message 2 of 12 , May 16 2:29 PM
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        Hi Lighting Applications Working Group!

        Here are the draft minutes of our meeting in Germantown, Maryland.
        Please post any corrections to this list:
        mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com

        Steve

        =======================

        Meeting Minutes (DRAFT)
        28 April 2005
        Germantown, Maryland

        Participants - Affiliation
        --------------------------
        Steve Karg - Lithonia Lighting
        Craig Spangler - Square D
        Robert Hick - Leviton Lighting
        Jack Neyer - Polarsoft
        David Fisher - Polarsoft
        Bill Jennings - NAVFAC MIDLANT
        Ernie Bryant - NAVFAC MIDLANT
        Don Gottschalk - Johnson Controls
        Pete Baselici - The WattStopper
        Bob Johnson - Siemens Bldg. Tech.
        Steve Treado - NIST

        The meeting was called to order at 1pm.

        A timekeeper (Pete Baselici) and a scribe (Robert Hicks) were assigned.
        Don Gottschalk was volunteered to track the non-agenda items.

        Review of minutes - approved

        Meeting agenda approved

        Liason Reports
        Robert Hick reported no NEMA DALI activity since last meeting:

        LA-WG proposal discussion:

        DMF028-02 Famous Times
        David Fisher reported that problems have been discovered with DMF028-02
        and requested that we withdraw and table this proposal until we enlist
        help from other working groups, such as the OS group. All agreed.

        DMF030-3 WriteGroup Service
        David Fisher presented this revision to his original proposal as a
        partial solution to the requirement in lighting systems to change a
        large number of values quickly.

        Primary change was the addition of an acknowledgement mechanism and
        supporting services. Whereas, if the sender required an acknowledgement
        from the group members, the sender would include a REPLY REQUESTED ID.
        The group members would be required to reply through a WriteGroupAck
        service.

        It was noted that control mode is similar to activating "presets" in a
        lighting control system and that a device may have membership in
        multiple groups. The broadcast may be sent locally, to a remote BACnet
        network number, or using the global BACnet network address.

        There was a question about returning error codes. It was decided that
        error codes may be difficult to define and may be unnecessary.

        There was discussion about why the current Command Object could not be
        modified to accomplish the same. The conclusion was that the Command
        Object was unsuitable.

        There was also a question concerning how long to wait for replies. The
        decision was to leave it unspecified and a local matter.

        Motion to move DMF030-3 to SSPC committee, as is, was seconded and
        passed with no opposed and one abstaining.

        Speed of Lighting Control on the Wire.

        Furthering the discussion from last meeting.

        There is still a need in the lighting community for a service that would
        allow many individual values to be set to individual levels in one
        packet, similar to DMX512.
        David Fisher presented his notes on a concept for a GroupWriteMultiple
        service. David’s concept involved "slots" that may be configured in
        each dimmer or switching device.

        Three possible methods were described:
        Method 1 - Typical BACnet tagged approach.
        Method 2 - Use only one datatype, map is local matter.
        Method 3 - Octet string, canonically encoded.

        The third method was most efficient, but was furthest from BACnet norms.
        It was noted that MSTP networks would limit the packet size to 480
        bytes, so efficiency was very important. It was suggested that the
        service needs to address at least 100 values in a packet.

        It was also suggested that a separate priority need not be sent with
        each value, and that 8 bit data may be sufficient for lighting control
        but may not be sufficient for other uses.

        Steve Karg and Robert Hick presented an example of a typical case for
        the use of this service where a ballroom may be serviced by partial
        number of outputs from several dimmer cabinets. The "slot" concept was
        questioned and a more global "channel" assignment similar to DMX was
        discussed. Whereas, each output of dimmer or switching devices would be
        configured locally with an identifier, commonly referred to as a
        "channel number" in the lighting community. The identifier may be
        unique, or several outputs may have the same identifier if the outputs
        were designed to always operate in tandem. The GroupWriteMultiple
        service would utilize Method 3 and encode the Values as "GroupChannel,
        Value, GroupChannel, Value, etc".

        Further discussion resolved that both the GroupChannel and GroupValue
        should be an unsigned 16bit. It was also decided that a single priority
        should be included as an overall priority for the packet. Relinquish
        would be handled as a specially encoded value such as 0xFFFF indicating null

        David agreed to cast the new WriteGroupMultiple service and present a
        proposal to be discussed at the next meeting. David requested email
        discussion prior to the meeting.

        Other needs of lighting community.

        Steve asked what were the other needs for the lighting community. A
        method for "Room Combining" was suggested. It was noted that the
        mechanics of this may be kept a local matter, although there may be a
        way of supervising using current BACnet objects and services. This may
        be discussed in future meetings.

        Future Meeting.

        It was decided that the next meeting would be held in Denver, possible
        on Sunday, June 26th , 2005. Steve will confirm the date and time
        through email.
      • Steve Karg
        Hi Lighting Applications Working Group! As proposed at our last meeting, next scheduled meeting of the Lighting Applications working group will be at the
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 17, 2007
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          Hi Lighting Applications Working Group!

          As proposed at our last meeting, next scheduled meeting of the Lighting
          Applications working group will be at the Spring interim SSPC meeting,
          which is being held at Montgomery College Germantown Campus. The
          Lighting Applications working group will be meeting on Tuesday, April
          24, 2007, from 1PM to 5PM. Other working groups will be meeting as
          well. More information about the other working groups can be found at
          the BACnet.org website:
          http://www.bacnet.org/WG/

          Montgomery College is served by three major international airports in
          the Washington, DC area, Baltimore-Washington International(BWI), Dulles
          International(IAD) and Reagan National (DCA).

          Our host arranged a block of rooms at the nearby Hampton
          Inn which is within easy walking distance of the meetings.

          Hampton Inn
          20260 Goldenrod Lane
          Germantown, MD 20876
          Contact: John Jordan
          Phone: +1 (301) 428-1300
          Fax: +1 (301) 428-9034
          http://www.hampton-inn.com/hi/germantown-gaithers
          Group/Convention Code: ASH
          Rate: $109.00 + tax
          Location: The Hampton Inn is located on property adjacent to the
          Germantown Campus and is a 2 block walk through parking lots that adjoin
          the campus. Maps and directions can be found on the website.

          Meeting Schedule and Location:
          High Technology Sciences Center (HTSC), Room 216
          Humanities and Social Sciences (HSS), Room 007
          Montgomery College Germantown Campus
          20200 Observation Drive
          Germantown, Maryland 20876
          Contact: Mike Whitcomb, P.E.
          Office Phone: +1 (301) 251-7375
          http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/maps/gcamp.html

          Monday, April 23
          8AM-3PM HTSC 216 Applications
          3PM-5PM HTSC 216 Internet Protocol
          Noon-5PM HSS-007 BACnet Testing Labs

          Tuesday, April 24
          8AM-5PM HTSC 216 Life Safety and Security
          1PM-3PM Life Safety and Security / Network Security joint session
          8PM-Noon HSS-007 Testing and Interoperability
          1PM-5PM HSS-007 Lighting Applications
          6:30 PM Group Dinner

          Wednesday, April 25
          8AM-5PM HTSC 216 SSPC 135 BACnet

          Thursday, April 26
          8AM-10AM HTSC 216 Wireless Networking
          10AM-11AM HTSC 216 Master-Slave/Token-Passing
          11AM-Noon HTSC 216 XML Applications
          1PM-3PM HTSC 216 Utility Integration
          3PM-5PM HTSC 216 Objects and Services

          Friday, April 27
          8AM-Noon HTSC 216 Objects and Services

          Please send Bill Swan <mailto:Bill.Swan@...> a courtesy e-mail
          to let him know if you plan on attending.

          The Lighting Applications working group Agenda will include the
          following items:
          1. Review DMF-032 WriteGroup service with Multiplexor object internals
          2. Review any Addendum i public review comments
          Please post any additional LA-WG agenda items to this list.

          Best Regards,

          Steve Karg
          Lithonia Lighting
          --
          http://steve.kargs.net/
        • Steve Karg
          Hi Lighting Applications Working Group! Here are the meeting minutes from our last meeting. The meeting minutes have also been submitted to the BACnet
          Message 4 of 12 , May 25 12:28 PM
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            Hi Lighting Applications Working Group!

            Here are the meeting minutes from our last meeting. The meeting
            minutes have also been submitted to the BACnet committee chair as
            LA019.doc.

            Best Regards,

            Steve Karg

            --------------------------------------------
            BACnet - Lighting Applications Working Group
            Meeting Minutes
            April, 24 2007
            Germantown, Maryland

            The minutes from the last meeting, LA018.doc, were approved without
            changes.

            The agenda for the meeting was modified to include a discussion of the
            "Color" property that was recently removed from the Lighting Output
            object.

            There were no Liaison reports.

            Status of unpublished work:
            Addendum i to 135-2004 went out for public review in March. This
            addendum defines a new Lighting Output Object. David Fisher was asked
            about the status of the "Famous Times" feature, but the status is
            unknown.

            Simple Value Objects (Famous Times for Dawn and Dusk): David Fisher
            said that he has been given a mandate [not during this meeting] to
            write a proposal that makes almost all of the properties of the
            "Value" objects optional, to create the opportunity for very
            "lightweight" objects.

            Hand-Off-Auto feature: Some of this is included in Addendum i, but
            some people are interested in a property that indicates the H-O-A
            switch position separately from the Present_Value. This proposal is
            in front of the Objects and Services working group.

            David Fisher said that there is a flaw in Addendum i related to the
            fact that the Blink behavior does not map onto Binary Value objects
            well because Binary Value objects are not required to have a
            Priority_Array property. David then presented proposal DMF-019-10.doc
            to the LA-WG meeting attendees as a solution to this problem. The
            basis of the solution is that the Blink_Priority_Threshold property is
            not required in non-commandable Binary Value objects. A question
            was raised as to how this change would affect the blink behavior.
            David answered that this is detailed in section 12.8.29.1 of
            DMF-019-10.doc.

            Pete stated that a local switch would typically override the off delay
            (which is the whole point of the off delay, to give occupants the
            chance to prevent the lights from going out), so could a sentence be
            added about cancelling the off delay if PV becomes Active? The group
            agreed that a sentence like the following should be added:

            "During off delay, if PV becomes Active, off delay should be canceled
            and the output should remain Active".

            Pete raised the issue that the maximum ON time of manual overrides
            should not be applicable when the area is occupied. David said that
            this would need to be an additional feature. Pete said that the same
            end result could be accomplished by "sweeping" areas with an OFF
            command at regular intervals during unoccupied times, and this seemed
            to satisfy the application requirements without requiring changes to
            the proposal.

            The discussion returned to the changes proposed related to the blink
            feature and non-commandable BV objects. Did the group want to submit
            this as a change to the standard AFTER Addendum i is approved, or
            should this be submitted as a comment to Addendum i during the public
            review period to get the changes incorporated before Addendum i is
            approved for publication? The general consensus was that it would be
            better to submit a comment during the public review to get Addendum i
            modified before publication. David Fisher agreed to submit this
            comment to ASHRAE as part of the Addendum i public review.

            New issue. Steve asked "What is returned by ReadProperty when reading
            the Lighting_Command property? What if Lighting_Command has never
            been commanded, i.e. what is its initial value?" The group decided
            that when Lighting_Command is read by ReadProperty, it should return
            the value last commanded and the command parameters, or STOP if it has
            never been commanded.

            Steve suggested that the sentence prior to Table 12-Z in Addendum i
            needed to be reworded. The group agreed on the following change to
            that sentence:

            "Optional fields of the BACnetLightingOperation value that are
            allowable as indicated by table 12-Z for each operation are shown in
            bold." David Fisher agreed to submit Steve's comment to ASHRAE as part
            of the Addendum i public review.

            Review of proposal DMF-043-1:
            David Fisher explained that the objective of this proposal is to take
            Steve Karg's original Multiplexer object and cast it as a Channel
            object. This fixes a problem with the original idea of the "Channel"
            command: no network visibility. Writing the PV of the Channel object
            causes writes to all objects in the List_Of_Object_Property_References
            at the same priority. The Channel object can also coerce the data
            between different datatypes. The Channel object itself is not
            commandable but the command priority is passed down to the target
            objects. The Channel object's instance number is the same as the
            channel number.

            There was a lengthy discussion about the need for a channel number
            that is independent of the channel object Object_Identifier. David
            Fisher proposed that a property be added to the Device object to
            indicate which control groups it belongs to. Bob said that he wanted
            each application to have its own group association, and that group
            association should not be tied to the hardware which is what would
            happen if the list of control groups was a property of the Device
            object.

            It was noted that since the proposed Write Group service is
            unconfirmed by design so that it can be used as a sort of multicast,
            there is no way to verify whether a Device is responding to Write
            Group or not.

            After the lengthy discussion of various uses of Channels and Groups in
            lighting applications, a vote was taken on the following: "Should
            Channel number be decoupled from the Channel Object instance number?"
            The result of the vote was 5 to 1 in favor of decoupling.

            David explained that the Transition Time service parameter was removed
            from the Write Group service because the concept of transition time is
            not easy to apply to all of the objects that could be in the
            List_Of_Object_Property_References.

            Steve suggested the idea of a randomized command delay, to prevent
            power surges. After some discussion, the group agreed to the
            following proposal: Write Group has a delayed execution flag, but the
            amount to delay is a local matter. David Fisher will incorporate this
            into the next revision of DMF-043.

            Bob asked a couple of questions:
            Q:"Does Write Group have to be sent as a broadcast?"
            A: "No, it can be unicast".

            Q:"Can it be confirmed?".
            A: "No."

            Discussion of the Color property:

            David Fisher explained that the Color property originally had 2 purposes:
            1.Indication of fixed color lights, like lights with filters,
            2.controllable color, like RGB LEDs.

            Some of the problems that arose:
            1.BACnet needed a new datatype for RGB values.
            2.It would be nice if the Lighting Output indicated support for
            commandable color.
            3.Multiple commandable properties in the same object is a problem.
            4.Min and Max level don't apply well to color.

            For these reasons, David thought it might be better to create a
            different Lighting Output specifically intended for color lights,
            complete with new services such as Ramp to Color, Go to Color, and
            Step Color (no - stepping color doesn't make sense).

            So the question is, do we want a separate object for color lights?
            The group decided that this was the right direction, but that we
            should also include support for other advanced lighting control
            features that are beyond the capabilities of the greyscale Lighting
            Output object, such as those used in theatrical lighting like pan,
            zoom, and tilt. David also would like to collect input on which color
            space we should use. RGB24 would be simple, but is it adequate?
            Steve Karg to provide David Fisher with a list of theatrical lighting
            features and properties. David Fisher to create a proposal based on
            the input he receives.

            Next Meeting
            ------------
            The next meeting of the LA-WG will be in Long Beach, CA, on Sunday,
            June 24, 2007, from 8:30am to noon in the Long Beach Convention
            Center, Seaside Section, Room 306A.

            Thank you to Mike Danner for taking meeting notes, to Coleman Brumley
            for keeping time, and David Fisher for keeping track of non-agenda items.

            Attendees
            ---------
            Note: The list of attendees is probably not correct as I created it
            from memory. I seemed to have misplaced the sign in sheet during my
            recent change in employers from Lithonia Lighting to The Wattstopper.
            Any error or omissions are unintended and corrections are welcome. -
            Steve

            Name, Organization
            ------------------
            David Fisher, Polarsoft
            Coleman Brumley, Polarsoft
            Pete Baselici, The WattStopper
            Steve Karg, Lithonia Lighting
            Bob Johnson, Siemens Building Technology
            Steve Treado, NIST
            Mike Danner, Automated Logic
            Dave Robin, Automated Logic
            Rolf Hunt, Automated Logic
          • Steve Karg
            Hello Lighting Applications working group! As suggested in our last meeting, our next scheduled meeting will be at the interim SSPC meeting, which is being
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 18, 2008
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              Hello Lighting Applications working group!

              As suggested in our last meeting, our next scheduled meeting will be
              at the interim SSPC meeting, which is being held at Montgomery College
              Germantown Campus.

              The Lighting Applications working group meeting is scheduled during
              the morning for two days (8am-noon) on Monday, April 21, 2008 and
              Tuesday, April 22, 2008, in room HS-007.

              Our major agenda items include:
              1. Discuss Color and associated properties for lighting. What needs to
              be included in an object or profile for BACnet interoperabilty?
              Specifications for the Chromaticity of Solid
              State Lighting Products developed by ANSI may apply:
              http://www.nema.org/stds/ANSI-ANSLG-C78-377.cfm

              2. Discuss Addendum H clause H.X "Using BACnet with DALI"

              3. Lighting Application BIBB? 135.1 Testing additions?

              See you there!

              Steve
              ====================================
              ASHRAE SSPC 135 BACnet Interim Meeting
              April 21 - April 25, 2008

              Location:
              Montgomery College Germantown Campus
              20200 Observation Drive
              Germantown, Maryland 20876

              Building:
              High Technology Sciences Center (HT)
              Humanities and Social Sciences Building (HS) (cafeteria)
              http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/maps/gcamp.html

              Directions:
              http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/
              Look under information for: visitors and community: maps & directions:
              Germantown campus. They are located just Northwest of Washington, DC,
              directly off of Interstate I-270 North, not far from the National
              Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).

              Parking:
              Park in any white line space.

              Contact:
              Mike Whitcomb, P.E.
              Mike Whitcomb, P.E.
              Energy Manager
              Montgomery College
              40 West Gude Drive, Suite 200
              Rockville, Maryland, 20850
              Office Phone: +1 (240) 567-7375
              Mobile Phone: +1 (301) 509-3723
              mailto:mike.whitcomb@...

              Airports:
              Montgomery College is served by the three major airports in the
              Washington, DC area:
              Baltimore-Washington International(BWI)
              Dulles International(IAD)
              Reagan National(DCA)

              Metro:
              Montgomery College is located just North(approximately 10 miles) of
              the Red Line, Shady Grove Metro Station. The Metro is the subway rail
              system serving the DC metro area. A shuttle service is available from
              the Hampton Inn. Taxi service is also available.

              Hotel:
              Hampton Inn Germantown
              20260 Goldenrod Lane
              Germantown, MD 20876
              Contact: Elijah Hammonds
              Phone: +1 (301) 428-1300
              Fax: +1 (301) 428-2870
              http://www.hampton-inn.com/hi/germantown-gaithers
              Block: ASHRAE Rate: $115.00 + tax
              Location: Get maps and directions from website. The Hampton Inn is
              located on property adjacent to our Germantown Campus and is a 2 block
              walk through parking lots that adjoin the campus.

              Booking online (please note: the Group Code does not appear to work –
              call the hotel):
              1) Log onto www.hamptoninngermantown.com and click on the upper right
              hand corner in the box labeled "Book Now!"
              2) Click on link that reads, "Need to Book Multiple Group Reservations?"
              3) Type in dates of stay and room preference and then scroll down to
              Special Accounts and enter ASHRAE in the Group/Convention Box and
              click "continue."
              4) Your rates (both for standards and suites) will appear and you can
              continue with the reservation as normal

              Meeting Schedule
              --------------------------
              Monday April 21
              BTL WG (HT216 8am-noon)
              LA-WG (HS-007 8am-noon)
              Lunch (noon-1pm)
              TI-WG (HT216 1pm-5pm)
              AP-WG (HS-007 1pm-5pm)

              Tuesday April 22
              XML WG (HT216 8am-noon)
              LA-WG (HS-007 8am-noon)
              Lunch (noon-1pm)
              MSTP-WG (HT216 1pm-3pm)
              IP-WG (HT216 3pm-5pm)
              AP-WG (HS-007 1pm-5pm)

              Wednesday April 23
              SSPC-135 (HT216 8am-noon)
              Lunch (noon-1pm)
              SSPC-135 (HT216 1pm-5pm)

              Thursday April 24
              OS WG (HT216 8am-noon)
              LSS-WG (HS-007 8am-noon)
              Lunch (noon-1pm)
              NS/LSS-WG (HT216 1pm-3pm)
              NS-WG (HT216 3pm-5pm)
              WN-WG (HS-007 1pm-3pm)
              UI-WG (HS-007 3pm-5pm)

              Friday April 25
              OS WG (HT216 8am-noon)
              --
              http://steve.kargs.net/
            • Steve Karg
              Hello Lighting Applications Working Group! We met in Germantown for two days, and had some fantastic discussion. Appended are the meeting minutes, which are
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 17, 2008
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                Hello Lighting Applications Working Group!

                We met in Germantown for two days, and had some fantastic discussion.
                Appended are the meeting minutes, which are also in the LA023.doc file
                which has been uploaded to the BACnet FTP server.

                Best Regards,

                Steve
                ===============
                1.Opening remarks – by Steve Karg (8:30AM)
                2.Circulation of attendance sheet, and introduction of those present
                Name, Affiliation
                David Fisher, Polarsoft
                Coleman Brumley, Polarsoft
                Steve Karg, The Watt Stopper
                Robert Hick, Leviton
                Duane King, Acuity Brands Lighting
                Dana Peterson, Johnson Controls
                Christoph Zeller, Sauter
                David Ritter, Delta Controls

                3.Meeting role assignments
                time keeper - David Fisher
                scribe - Robert Hick, Steve Karg
                non-agenda item attendant - Coleman
                4.Approval of the minutes from the previous meeting.
                5.Discussion and approval of the agenda for this meeting.
                6.Liaison updates (NEMA, IESNA, DALI)

                Robert Hick reported on progress of NEMA 243 DALI protocol standard
                and harmonization with IEC 602386 DALI protocol standard. Hope was to
                have a final draft for IEC voting by summer.

                7.Status of SSPC-135-2004 Addendum i PPR2

                PPR2 ends on May 9. Steve Karg submitted one comment due to initial
                PPR2 document not matching the draft submitted. Current PPR2 document
                matches the draft, and the public review period was extended. Steve's
                comment is now mute.

                8.LA-WG proposal discussion / resolution via consensus

                DMF-051-1: Color Lighting Object

                David Fisher presented DMF-051-1 and a discussion ensued.
                DMF-051-1 proposed a new color object with separate properties for
                control of fading and luminance.

                There was another proposal that color should be merged into the
                current lighting object since it already has the Luminance properties
                built in.

                David Ritter also suggested that we should reference the color object
                with the light object instead.

                After much discussion there was a consensus to add color functionality
                to the existing light object. David F agreed to create a proposal to
                amend the Light object to incorporate the color properties and
                commands.

                There was also discussion on how to best define color?

                It was noted that there were several ways to define color.
                RGB values – used in entertainment lighting and combines luminance
                CIE xy coordinates – Precise color only, used to define LED's
                Color Temperature Tc– Used to define white light – warm to cool

                After much discussion, it was determined that all three methods have
                specific benefits for different applications of color in lighting.
                There was a consensus to use the Lighting Command to command the color
                in any of the 3 different ways. David F suggested that the xy
                coordinates be expressed in integers.

                Another issue discussed was how to present the current color value and
                should the device only present the color method being used or be
                required to calculate values for all methods.

                David Ritter also expressed a need for a light weight object for
                lighting control. There was a brief discussion about adding Color to
                BO, however it was decided that color would rarely be used with Binary
                devices. The subject of the need for Blink Warn in the BO resurfaced
                and the group is considering reviving the past proposal.

                References in Clause 25:
                CIE 13.3
                ANSI, NEMA ASNL6C78-377-2008

                Discussion of Delta Comments on SSPC 135-2004 Addendum i PPR2

                David Ritter and his team at Delta Controls reviewed Addendum I and
                provided a number of comments that were submitted to the Lighting
                Applications working group and discussed. Concern was raised that the
                time it takes for PPR to happen would delay the publication at least
                another year.

                1. In_Process property should be a required property since the
                lighting command property is required and its purpose is to show the
                progress of the lighting command.
                Discussion: There are no objections from the working group to making
                In_Process a required property, except that this comment on its own
                should not be cause to have a PPR3. This would be a substantive
                comment.
                2. In the Lighting_Command property the sentence "..the write shall
                fail and a Result(-) with an error class of PROPERTY and a error class
                of OPTIONAL_FUNCTIONALITY_NOT_SUPPORTY." the second "error class"
                should be "error code".
                Discussion: This item is an erratta.
                3. In the Lighting_Command property should there be a subset of
                operations which are required to be supported?
                Can a device not support any lighting command operations? If a device
                is not required to support any operations the sentence "Devices are
                not required to support all BACnetLightingOperations" should be
                changed to "Devices are not required to support any
                BACnetLightingOperations".
                Discussion: The working group agreed that it was assumed to be at
                least one command. STOP, GOTO_LEVEL, and RELINQUISH should be
                required. Seems that this potential ambiguity could eventually receive
                an interpretation request and we should address it now. It would be
                substantive.
                Can vendors extend the Lighting_Command enumeration? Working group
                decided that extending the enumeration for vendors would be okay, and
                agreed that the values be 16-bit, 0-255 reserved for ASHRAE. This may
                promote non-interoperability, however.
                4. In the Lighting_Command property there are 6 different ramp
                commands defined. This is an excessive number of similar commands. The
                commands can be reduced to two choices:
                RAMP_TO
                RAMP_TO_AT_RATE
                The other 4 commands can easily be achieved by these two commands.
                Discussion: While it may be better to be simpler, the Addendum is not
                unclear by having them. However, it may result in more
                interoperability problems having more choices. Simplifying the number
                of commands would be a substantive change.
                5. In the Lighting_Command property the commands RAMP_UP and RAMP_DOWN
                should be changed to RAMP_MAX and RAMP_MIN respectively to better
                denote the function of the commands.
                Discussion: If we accept #4 comment to simplify, then this comment is
                mute. Yes, these may be better names. The change would be
                substantive.
                6. The Blink_Time property should be changed to tenths of a second
                rather than hundredths. Specifying a blink time in hundredths of a
                second is excessive.
                Discussion: The only sub-seconds defines in BACnet are currently
                milliseconds or hundredths or REAL seconds. Adds complexity for
                clients to have an additional time conversion. Should use milliseconds
                to be SI compliant, but resolution a local matter. Blink is probably
                only visible if it is longer than 50ms, so tenths of seconds may be
                not enough resolution. The change to milliseconds would be
                substantive.
                7. There is a type inconsistency among the properties that specify
                time duration. Some properties specify the duration in seconds as a
                REAL (Lighting_Command.fade-time, Fade_Time, Off_Delay, On_Delay)
                while other specify the duration in seconds as an Unsigned
                (Lighting_Command.Duration, Elaspsed_Active_Time). It would be
                preferable to have a consistent measure and unit of duration
                throughout the object type.
                Discussion: The non-REAL are consistent with other objects similar
                properties. The REAL were changed from non-REAL during SSPC and
                working group discussion prior to PPR1.
                8. On_Delay/Off_Delay property should specify that the value cannot
                take on negative values. It should specify what error code to return
                if an invalid value is attempted to be written.
                Discussion: Time values in this object should never be negative.
                Should we specify this as affecting all time properties in this
                object? Which Error class/code?
                9. The property name "Off_Delay" should be changed to "Blink Warn
                Delay" as it is only used when a blink warning is in effect.
                Discussion: Permits Off_Delay when Blink_Time is zero - see
                Blink_Time. Perhaps some language is needed to define this ability
                clearly. Perhaps a diagram would be useful - see David's white paper.
                Note that most of the diagrams from David Fisher's white paper would
                be useful in this object.
                On_Delay does not utilize a priority threshold, and this behavior
                seems to be an omission. Perhaps use Blink Priority Threshold, but
                change the name to Delay_Priority_Threshold.
                10. The order of properties in the property descriptions should match
                the order given in the table (i.e., Profile Name should be last).
                Discussion: editorial
                11. Power should be specified in watts not kilowatts as most lighting
                fixtures would be significantly less than 1 kilowatt. The value may
                also be changed to Unsigned from REAL.
                Discussion: The Power units and datatype are consistent with Load
                Control object Full_Duty_Baseline property. Perhaps the Power
                property name should be changed to be consistent with the Load Control
                object property.
                12. The Power property would be more useful for load shedding if it
                was the instantaneous power consumption rather than maximum power
                consumption.
                Discussion: It might make it more useful, but it doesn't make it
                invalid or bad by keeping it the way it is. We could add another
                property.
                13. The Binary_Active_Value, Binary_Inactive_Value and Polarity
                properties should be removed from this object.
                13a. Adding these properties adds significant confusion to the object
                as it is unclear whether the object is an analog or binary lighting
                object. It would be much more clear to have different objects for
                binary and analog lighting.
                13b. If these optional properties are in the object then the object
                must behave as a binary lighting object. For manufacturers who have
                static object definitions per device this is a problem as it means
                that you cannot controller both analog and binary lights from a single
                device.
                Discussion: The language seems to prescribe the behavior even in the
                case of analog lighting. What of the case of a dimmer which includes a
                relay and could be used in either case? Change the language? The
                functionality is necessary - whether it is necessary to expose and
                define it is really the question. Should this functionality be moved
                to a Binary Lighting object, or just add blink warn into Binary Output
                as in Addendum i PPR1?
                14. In the Elapsed_Active_Time property the statement "…that the
                Present_Value has been ACTIVE since this property was most recently
                set to a zero value" should be replaced with "…that the Present_Value
                has been ACTIVE. This value is reset when a value of zero is written
                to this property.". As it is written there may be confusion concerning
                whether "this property" refers to the Present_Value property or the
                Elapsed_Time_Property.
                Discussion: Perhaps the language should be more clear and refer to
                Present_Value by name.
                15. Property descriptions of 12.x.22 – 12.x.26 should state "This
                optional property…" to be consistent with the property table.
                Discussion: yes, the table is correct.
                16. The Min_Pres_Value property should have a value range of 0...100
                rather than 1...100. What is the reasoning for restricting it to
                non-zero values? The default for this should be 0.
                Discussion: Minimum on value cannot be zero - but why? The default
                value is currently undefined when this property is present. Is there a
                use case for 0? Yes, it could be 0 if the property is present but the
                functionality is not used. Perhaps 0 should be default, and allowed.
                17. The Max_Pres_Value property should value a value range of 0...100.
                The default value should be 100.
                Discussion: The default value is currently undefined when this
                property is present. Why is the range not using the full range? Is
                there a use case for 100? Yes, it could be 100 if the property is
                present but the functionality is not used. Perhaps 100 should be
                default, and allowed.
                Are Max_Pres_Value and Min_Pres_Value both really required to be
                present? No, it seems they are not coupled, and there could be a use
                case for having one and not the other. Are they really required to be
                writable? There seem to be cases where it might be desirable to have
                this property Read-Only when limiting outside applications.
                18. The Power_On_Value and System_Failure_Value properties are
                problematic because both are only used in the special case when
                communication to a remote lighting device, which is being controlled
                by this object, is lost. Neither of these properties has anything to
                do with the functionality of this object and should be considered to
                be outside of the scope of BACnet.
                Discussion: We received PPR1 and comments from vendors who want to use
                these in non-DALI remote systems, along with pre-PPR1 comments that
                desired these properties to adequately model their DALI systems via
                BACnet. Removing the DALI like properties would disenfranchise these
                vendors.
                18a. When communication is lost to the remote device should the object
                take on the System_Failure_Value value? If so, at what priority should
                it be written at in the priority array?
                Discussion: These values are used as configuration values that the
                output device uses before it sets the value from the Priority_Array)
                In addition, Power_On_Value is confusing because its name implies that
                this is the value the object will take on when the device starts up.
                Discussion: The name is derived from the DALI property of the same name)
                BACnet does not specify what the values of the Priority_Array are
                after a power failure, and these values might be useful in that case
                (for example, when Out of Service is TRUE and non-volatile). We could
                also define a value that gets written to Priority_Array (at a specific
                priority) upon power up when the Priority_Array is volatile. This
                property might or might not be this property.

                Discuss Addendum H clause H.X "Using BACnet with DALI"
                Robert agreed to continue working towards providing a draft later in the year.

                Lighting Application BIBB? 135.1 Testing additions?
                This discussion was tabled until next meeting.

                9.Discussion of Non-Agenda Items
                10.Schedule for future meetings.
                The group plans to meet at the next SSPC meeting in Salt Lake City in
                June, 2008. The date and time of the meeting will be determined at a
                later date.
                11.Adjournment

                Meeting minutes respectfully submitted by Robert Hick. Edits by Steve Karg.
                --
                http://steve.kargs.net/
              • Steve Karg
                Hi Lighting Applications Working Group! As proposed at our last meeting, the next scheduled meeting of the Lighting Applications working group will be at the
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 12, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Lighting Applications Working Group!

                  As proposed at our last meeting, the next scheduled meeting of the
                  Lighting Applications working group will be at the Spring interim SSPC
                  meeting, which is being held at Montgomery College Germantown Campus
                  from May 10, 2010, through May 14, 2010. The Lighting Applications
                  working group will be meeting on Monday, May 10, 2010, from 1pm to 5pm
                  in GB105, and Tuesday, May 11, 2010, from 8am to 10am in GB106. Other
                  working groups will be meeting during the week as well, and SSPC 135
                  BACnet will meet on Thursday and Friday, May 13-14, 2010, in GB105.

                  The Lighting Applications working group Agenda will include the following items:
                  1. SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR4 comment responses.
                  2. Discuss Annex H clause H.X "Using BACnet with DALI"
                  3. Discuss BACnet Schedule for Dawn Dusk (removed from 2008 Addendum W)
                  4. IESNA Computer Committee XML standard for photosensors - BACnet
                  applicability?
                  5. Discuss Lighting Application BIBB and 135.1 Testing additions.

                  Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
                  items to this mailing list.

                  Best Regards,

                  Steve Karg
                  Lithonia Lighting
                  --
                  Montgomery College is served by three major international airports in
                  the Washington, DC area, Baltimore-Washington International(BWI),
                  Dulles International(IAD) and Reagan National (DCA).

                  Our host arranged a block of rooms at the nearby Hampton Inn which is
                  within easy walking distance of the meetings.

                  Hampton Inn
                  20260 Goldenrod Lane
                  Germantown, MD 20876
                  Contact: Richard Petras, General Manager, e-mail: GermantownDOS@...
                  Phone: +1 (301) 428-1300
                  Fax: +1 (301) 428-9034
                  www.hamptoninngermantown.com
                  Group/Convention Code: ASH
                  Rate: $117.00 + tax (May 8, 2010 -May 16, 2009)
                  Location: The Hampton Inn is located on property adjacent to the
                  Germantown Campus and is a 2 block walk through parking lots that adjoin
                  the campus. Maps and directions can be found on the website.

                  Meeting Location:
                  Goldenrod Building (GB), Rooms GB105 & GB106
                  Goldenrod Lane
                  Germantown, Maryland 20876
                  Note: Goldenrod Building is across the street from the Hampton Inn on
                  Goldenrod Drive.
                  Contact: Mike Whitcomb, P.E.
                  Office Phone: Office Phone: +1 (240) 567-7375, Mobile Phone: +1 (301) 509-3723
                  e-mail: mike.whitcomb@...
                  http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/maps/gcamp.html
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