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Re: [BACnetLighting] Write Group Service

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  • Carl Neilson
    Christoph, As I see it, the write-group service is an important part of BACnet s lighting control solution. In its absence, there is little to be done to
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 6, 2011
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      Christoph,

      As I see it, the write-group service is an important part of BACnet's lighting control solution. In its absence, there is little to be done to ensure timeliness of lighting control.

      But as you have noted, if insufficient forethought is given to its deployment, there will be signficant repercussions.

      Instead of using global broadcasts, I think that the use of network directed broadcasts is desirable (did we not make changes to the addenda to make this clear). When engineering lighting installations it would make sense to take into account the needs of lighting and structure the networks such that related lighs are located on the fewest number of BACnet networks as is possible.

      For B/IP, it would be best to split the network into multiple B/IP networks for the purpose of constraining broadcasts. Instead of having a monolithic B/IP network, use B/IP to B/IP routers in place of BBMDs and cut down on the propogation of broadcasts.

      <rant>
      And don't use ZigBee. It was a mistake to include it as a datalink in BACnet; it should included into BACnet networks via gateways, not as a first class citizen.
      </rant>

      Carl

      Christoph Zeller <christoph.zeller@...-bc.com> wrote:



      Dear members of LA-WG.

      attached you find my thoughts about the proposed write-group service


      Issues with Write-Group service.

      If I remember correctly, the original use-case for the write-group service was tunneling DMX commands through BACnet.
      In this scenario, a large group of lights shall immediately follow a human interaction (e.g. a Fader is moved and the lights should follow the faders position)

      The service was then extended with coercion rules to have a wider scope.

      Problem:
      If the service is used as a Unicast, there is no real advantage over existing write-property service (assuming that the device internally distributes the command received to its target).
      Broadcasting on the other hand is distributed to all nodes withing scope.

      The goal has to be that those devices listening to a particular group have to be reached.
      This can be achieved using broadcasts but at a potential high cost. All targets are receiving it, so we are flooding the network with such messages.
      The amount of flooding is determined by how often the service is used. As buildings grow, so will the number of occurencies.
      For example, if a wall-switch triggers such a service once an hour, 1000 wall-switches will do it every 3.6 seconds (on average).
      Therefore this can easily reach the networks capabilities.

      There are now 2 problems:
      1) Some networks are more vulnerable than others
      2) If the traffic is too high, messages will finally be dropped by network equipment (e.g. routers)

      To 1)
      In a Zigbee network, a Broadcast needs to be repeated by every Node (Mesh Network topology)
      In an BACnet-IP Ethernet Based Network, a broadcast is redistributed by BBMDs and every Switch of the underlying Ethernet network.
      In both cases, Broadcasts have a significantly higher cost than a unicast message.

      In MSTP Networks, the amount of network traffic is independent of whether the message is unicast or broadcast (shared media).


      Christoph Zeller
      Abteilung Technologies
      Sauter Head Office
      Fr. Sauter AG
      Im Surinam 55, CH-4016 Basel
      Telefon +41 (0)61 695 55 55
      Telefax +41 (0)61 695 56 19
      http://www.sauter-controls.com <http://www.sauter-controls.com/>

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    • Old, Bob
      Your devotion to the purity of BACnet is admirable, Carl. But perhaps it’s that devotion that blinds you to the elephant in the room. And that is the decade
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 7, 2011
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        Your devotion to the purity of BACnet is admirable, Carl.  But perhaps it’s that devotion that blinds you to the elephant in the room. 

         

        And that is the decade long discussion and the contortions elaborated in this email thread demonstrates that BACnet is incapable of meeting the requirements of the Lighting Application.

         

        We do seem to agree on the solution for this problem:  make a gateway to DALI.

         

        Br,

        B.O.   December 7, 2011

         

        Robert Old

        Siemens Industry, Inc.

        Infrastructure & Cities Sector

        Building Technologies Division

        1000 Deerfield Pkwy.

        Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-4513

        Tel.: +1 (847) 941-5623

        mailto:bob.old@...

        www.usa.siemens.com/buildingtechnologies

         

        From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Neilson
        Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 11:06 PM
        To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [BACnetLighting] Write Group Service

         

         

        Christoph,

        As I see it, the write-group service is an important part of BACnet's lighting control solution. In its absence, there is little to be done to ensure timeliness of lighting control.

        But as you have noted, if insufficient forethought is given to its deployment, there will be signficant repercussions.

        Instead of using global broadcasts, I think that the use of network directed broadcasts is desirable (did we not make changes to the addenda to make this clear). When engineering lighting installations it would make sense to take into account the needs of lighting and structure the networks such that related lighs are located on the fewest number of BACnet networks as is possible.

        [Bob Old] <snip>

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