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RE: [BACnetLighting] Digest Number 157

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  • winston BASS
    David, Thank you for your reply. I apologize for the delay in sending this thank you. In the interim my wife passed away. She had been struggling with MS for
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 27 10:12 AM
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      BACnet Lighting Apps. Working Group

      David,

       

      Thank you for your reply.

       

      I apologize for the delay in sending this thank you. In the interim my wife passed away. She had been struggling with MS for several years and in great pain and misery.

       

      Her struggle is over and she is at her eternal rest. I am happy for her and I am at peace.

       

      Take care. More about lighting at another time.

       

      Winston Hetherington  BAS Specialist. LM_ASHRAE 

      BASS Consulting Services

      907 - 1300 Pinecrest Rd.

      Ottawa, Ontario.  K2C3M5

      Phone 613 829-2039 or Cell 613 296-2188

      winston_bass@...

      http://www.bass-consulting-services.ca

       

       

      Please consider the environment before printing this email.

       


      From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 3:32 AM
      To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [BACnetLighting] Digest Number 157

       

      Messages In This Digest (1 Message)

      1a.

      Re: Digest Number 155 From: David Fisher

      Message

      1a.

      Re: Digest Number 155

      Posted by: "David Fisher" dfisher@...   polars15213

      Fri Jul 9, 2010 6:25 am (PDT)



      Winston,

      One of the objectives for the LAWG has been to develop a new Lighting Output
      object

      type. One of the goals for the LO object was (and still is) to provide
      mechanisms

      that take advantage of DALI-like features in a standardized manner. We have
      deliberated

      at great length on what those features should be, how they should work, and
      how

      a given implementation with and without DALI devices could exploit this
      featureset.

      After four public reviews, there are aspects of the proposed LO object that
      remain

      somewhat contentious. None of these is really at issue with the proposed
      DALI

      features. The hold up has been that several individuals have questioned some

      of the proposed behavior and mechanisms. Yet their counter-proposals have
      not

      been able to reach a consensus.

      In the Albuquerque meetings, an extensive review of the proposals has
      indicated

      a possible way forward. We are in the process of drafting revisions to the
      LO

      object that may satisfy the remaining issues. Hopefully this could lead to a
      consensus

      in the Atlanta meetings this autumn, which in turn would trigger another
      public review.

      The outcome of that review would determine what additional work if any is
      required

      prior to publication. Recent changes in ASHRAE standards rules and policy
      may help

      to accelerate this procedure somewhat. However, the actual publication of
      the new

      documents is still some time in the future.

      David Fisher

      PolarSoft® Inc.

      914 South Aiken Ave

      Pittsburgh PA 15232-2212

      <mailto:dfisher@polarsoft. biz> dfisher@polarsoft. biz

      www.polarsoft. biz

      412-683-2018

      412-683-5228 fax

      _____

      From: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com]
      On Behalf Of winston BASS
      Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:45 PM
      To: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [BACnetLighting] Digest Number 155

      Steve and all,

      I have not been able to meet with the WG other than on Telco’s. That being
      said I am not up to speed with the overall discussions, so if I sound a
      little off base, that’s because I may be. When I first joined group last
      year, my interest was to see the interconnect with DALI through to a
      published definition. My question now is did the last addendum submitted
      make it through the public review process and when will ASHRAE release the
      latest version?

      Reading through the attached minutes from Albuquerque , I have the Impression
      that the present discussion revolves around functions not necessarily
      intended to interconnect with DALI but would support lighting control
      functions beyond the capabilities of DALI. In fact, functions being
      discussed would supersede DALI in several areas. Am I correct in my
      observations?

      I am not against the concept at all but I am just trying to verify that the
      DALI interface is now a finished work and that product will be available
      with the latest changes included. Can anyone validate my question? I
      apologize if this is a finished work and I have missed the announcement.

      Thanks.

      Winston Hetherington BAS Specialist. LM_ASHRAE

      BASS Consulting Services

      907 - 1300 Pinecrest Rd.

      Ottawa , Ontario . K2C3M5

      Phone 613 829-2039 or Cell 613 296-2188

      winston_bass@ sympatico. ca

      http://www.bass- <http://www.bass- consulting- services. ca/>
      consulting-services .ca

      Please consider the environment before printing this email.

      _____

      From: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com]

      Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 3:34 AM
      To: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [BACnetLighting] Digest Number 155

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      GltZQMxMjc4NTc0NDM0 > BACnet Lighting Apps. Working Group

      Messages In This Digest (1 Message)

      1a.

      Re: Meeting in Albuquerque From: Klaus Waechter

      View
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      1a.

      <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/BACnetLigh ting/message/ 224;_ylc= X3oDMTJwcHRzc
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      Posted by: "Klaus Waechter" waechter_klaus@
      <mailto:waechter_klaus@ yahoo.com?Subject=%20Re% 3A%20Meeting% 20in%20Albuquerq
      ue> yahoo.com waechter_klaus <http://profiles. yahoo.com/ waechter_ klaus>

      Wed Jul 7, 2010 1:11 am (PDT)

      Howdy Steve

      I am missing David Ritter at the participant list.
      As far as I remember we talked about a telco where we then decide if a
      'Lighting
      Application Summit ' is needed or not.
      My expectation is to have this telco mid of August when most people are back

      from holidays.

      Kind Regards
      Klaus Waechter

      Siemens
      Gubelstrasse 22
      6301 Zug , Switzerland

      Tel direct: +41 41 724 56 13
      Fax: +41 41 723 55 58
      Mobile : +41 79 260 58 47
      Mailto: waechter.klaus@ <mailto:waechter. klaus%40siemens. com> siemens.com

      ____________ _________ _________ __
      From: SKarg <steve@kargs. <mailto:steve% 40kargs.net> net>
      To: BACnetLighting@ <mailto:BACnetLight ing%40yahoogroup s.com>
      yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 6:41:52 PM
      Subject: [BACnetLighting] Re: Meeting in Albuquerque

      Hello Lighting Applications Working Group!

      The Lighting Applications working group met at the Summer SSPC meeting, held
      in
      Albuquerque on June 24, 2010, and June 25, 2010.

      Below are the minutes, which will be posted to the BACnet committee as
      LA032.

      Best Regards,

      Steve Karg
      WattStopper
      --
      Minutes
      BACnet Lighting Applications Working Group
      BACnet Summer Meeting
      Albuquerque , New Mexico

      8:00AM – 5:00 PM on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - Enchantment C, Hyatt Regency
      3:15PM– 5:00 PM on Friday, June 25, 2010 - Sandia, Convention Center
      ------------ --------- --------- --
      1. Opening remarks - working group (8:00PM - 5 minutes)
      2. Circulation of attendance sheet, and introduction of those present (8:05
      - 5
      minutes)
      Name Organization
      Bernhard Isler Siemens
      Klaus Waechter Siemens
      Sharon DingesTrane- Ingersoll Rand
      Scott ZiegenfusLutron Electronics
      Chariti Young ALC
      Christoph ZellerSauter
      Duane L. King Acuity Brands Controls
      Rick LeinenLeviton
      Steve Karg Watt Stopper
      RenéKälin Siemens
      Dana Petersen Johnson Controls
      David Fisher Polarsoft

      3. Meeting role assignments (8:10 - 5 minutes)
      • time keeper: (breaks: 10AM, 2PM, 3PM, 4PM) – Rick Leinen
      • scribe – Chariti Young
      • non-agenda item attendant – CristophZeller
      4. Approval of the minutes from the previous meeting. (8:15 - 5 minutes)

      Some discussion of the previous minutes.
      Corrected misspelling of Rene's name and "idea".
      Refer SSPC 135 minutes for details on RK-006 presentation and discussion

      >> David Ritter moved that the minutes be accepted as amended. Seconded
      by
      Duane
      >>King. Unanimously approved.

      Updated minutes posted to server.

      5. Discussion and approval of the agenda for this meeting. (8:20 - 5
      minutes)

      Added action item from SSPC 135 to clarify how lighting output object should

      work within a BACnet system as part of the bigger picture - develop a design
      and
      usage guide for object.

      Added action from SSPC 135 to sort through proposals in terms of what is
      still
      valid or not. Continue, table, reject, completed.

      >> Revised agenda approved..

      6. Liason updates (NEMA, IESNA, DALI) (8:25 - 5 minutes)
      No updates

      7. Action Items – Proposals and Responses (8:30 – 7 hours)
      8. Clarify how lighting output object should work within a BACnet system as
      part
      of the bigger picture – develop a design and usage guide for object. Discuss

      Use Cases developed in Germantown (STK-029-3.doc) .

      Began with discussion of Rene's proposal for a Design and Usage guide.
      (Design_And_ Usage_Lighting_ Output_Object_ EN.ppt)

      Proposal was coordinated among Siemens control and lighting resources.

      Slide 12: In = information sent to lamp. Out = information provided from
      lamp.

      Slide 15: If we can make the assumptions that control logic always exists
      outside of the lighting output object and that there is no direct
      interaction
      between input and output, then the resolution of multiple inputs (perhaps
      with
      the exception of priority arbitration) should be handled by the control
      logic,
      not by the output object.

      If we remove the control logic type specifications from the output object
      specification (e.g. handling of input chatter, how to handle timeout
      switches),
      other objects could be added in the future if needed to standardize the way
      that
      control logic and interface are handled. May have difficulty deciding what's
      an
      important interface to the control logic and what's an integral piece of the

      output object – where is the line? Need to discuss and decide which pieces
      of
      the control logic truly belong in the output (perhaps minimum on/off), and
      which
      can be better or more appropriately handled external to (above or before)
      the
      output object.

      If compare Addendum I to design and usage guide proposal, most of the
      contents
      fall within the proposed paradigm. A few properties may need some further
      discussion to either provide a more abstract interface specification (rather

      than a specific output object specification) or to determine that the
      specified
      property is indeed control logic that should be exposed in the output
      object.
      Per comments received, blink behavior is one area that may need to be
      revisited,
      as well as the resolution of command, priority arbitration, and blink.
      Expected
      behavior should also be considered as part of the specification. If
      integrate
      multiple BACnet systems, could vendor-unique implementation and behavior
      cause a
      problem for the end-use customer? Agreement on the paradigm may help the
      committee come to consensus on contentious inclusions to the specification.

      Blink Warn: Should blink warn be part of this object? Primary objection is
      the
      coupling of the blink warning functionality with the priority array. There
      is a
      day-to-day need for blink warning. Decision re: whether or not to blink warn

      could be source-dependent, application- specific, device-specific, and/or
      time-sensitive. Network latency issues require that blink happen at the
      output
      device.

      Possible needs identified:
      1. An inherent property (output object supports/performs blink or doesn't)
      2. A command-included property that specifies blink/not
      3. Property to auto-trigger blink when present value transitions to zero

      In the case of (3), interleaved commands can cause unexpected behavior.
      "Blink" is tied to "off." But "off" is not necessarily tied to "blink."

      History: having a zero present value write trigger blink allows legacy
      client
      devices to treat the output object as an analog object, yet enable this
      lighting-specific behavior to occur.

      9. SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR4 comment review and response
      add-135-2008i- ppr4-draft
      LAWG-135-2008i- PPR4-Comment- Detail

      0002-001: How do we handle blink? Much discussion. Resolution over whether
      we
      need to allow legacy scheduler a way to achieve a blink warning directly: it
      is
      acceptable to require some external control logic that can consume a signal
      from
      a legacy scheduler and convert it to a command to the lighting output
      object.
      Concern over removing the entire blink sequence from the output object,
      because
      if non-atomic, execution and interruption becomes unreliable. Remove
      "present
      value (0) = blink." Replace with a lighting command (blink and off). Blink
      occurs via the lighting command only, and the language re: interaction
      between
      blink and priority array goes away. If default behavior is no blink, need
      Relinquish and Blink_ and_Relinquish. The lighting output object should only

      require one timer, although more are allowed (and may be required, depending
      on
      the implementation) .

      If blink and relinquish is commanded to a priority and a higher priority is
      in
      effect, the command never writes a value to the priority array, it just
      relinquishes the slot. If blink and relinquish is commanded to a priority,
      then
      something happens at a higher priority, cancel the command and execute
      higher
      priority command. (Should the value at the lower priority slot be
      relinquished?
      Behavior must be defined.)

      Need to be able to interrupt blink and begin a timeout with a switch input.
      And
      an input from a second switch should interrupt the original timeout and
      begin a
      second timeout. All BACnet clients that can write are also responsible for
      relinquishing.

      Having only one priority allowed for lighting commands is problematic –
      multiple
      priorities are used regularly to decide which lighting command to execute.
      They
      provide a way to have a fade to value and fade to relinquish happen on
      exceptional situations. For example, a lighting test in a board room that
      allows
      both the on and off command to fade rather than jump to a value.

      Other primary objection with existing proposal is with the concept of
      auto-relinquish after a delay/duration. Also, what to do with stale
      commands.

      Next steps:
      Dave F to draft resolution of removing present value (0) = blink and add new

      blink commands by 7/31.
      Dave R to comb review comments, add any open issues to those raised at this
      meeting
      * automatic relinquish
      * stale commands
      * need for lighting command at multiple priorities
      * Need for binary properties, or can the object just be analog
      * Blink warning
      and send email to LA-WG on yahoo group by 6/30.

      10. Discuss Annex H clause H.X "Using BACnet with DALI"
      RLH-001-3b – Not discussed.
      11. Discuss Lighting Application BIBB and 135.1 Testing additions.
      STK-021-1 – Not discussed.
      12. Discussion of Non-Agenda Items (4:45PM - 10 minutes)
      13. Sort through proposals in terms of what is still valid or not. Continue,

      table, reject, or completed. – Not completed.
      14. Schedule for future meetings.(4: 55PM - 5 minutes)

      6/25 3-5pm CC Sandia

      Once we have a draft to discuss, Steve K will publish an agenda and schedule
      one
      or more teleconference( s).

      Steve K to publish minutes to yahoo group by 6/30

      If another interim meeting is not scheduled, the next meeting will be in
      conjunction with the SSPC 135 interim fall meeting in October.

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