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Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky

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  • Steve Karg
    Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group! We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm, in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville,
    Message 1 of 7 , May 29, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!

      We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
      in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
      http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3rdFloor_Skywalk_Level.pdf

      All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
      The Galt House Hotel and Suites
      140 North Fourth St
      Louisville, KY 40202.

      As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
      and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
      will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
      June 21).

      LA-WG agenda items:

      1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.

      2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI (RLH-001)

      Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
      items to this list.

      Best Regards,

      Steve Karg
      The Watt Stopper / Legrand
      --
      http://steve.kargs.net/
    • David Ritter
      Hi Steve & all, I don t know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment

        Hi Steve & all,

         

        I don’t know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.

         

        See you in Louisville.

         

        David Ritter M.Sc.

        Delta Controls Inc.

        17850 56th Ave

        Surrey, BC

        V3S 1C7

        604.574-8492 (direct)

        604.574.9444 (office)

        604.837-1330 (cellphone)

         

        From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
        Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
        To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
        Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky

         




        Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!

        We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
        in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
        http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3rdFloor_Skywalk_Level.pdf

        All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
        The Galt House Hotel and Suites
        140 North Fourth St
        Louisville, KY 40202.

        As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
        and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
        will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
        June 21).

        LA-WG agenda items:

        1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.

        2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI (RLH-001)

        Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
        items to this list.

        Best Regards,

        Steve Karg
        The Watt Stopper / Legrand
        --
        http://steve.kargs.net/

      • Paul Ericson
        All,   I m responding to David s sunrise/sunset comment.   I either use a photocell input to the control system or sunrise/sunset.   If S/S, then you must
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 5, 2009
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          All,
           
          I'm responding to David's sunrise/sunset comment.   I either use a photocell input to the control system or sunrise/sunset.   If S/S, then you must also include a parameter for time before and after, ie: I want lights to come on 1/2 hour after sunset.   Also must include location info, lat/long?, or time zone so the S/S can be calculated by the control system.
           
          If photocell, we would also want the offsets if it's just a photocell switch.  In that case, I might want to turn it on 1/2 hour before it's really dark.  Some of the new photocells will actually give light level readings to the software and the threshold then has to be set as to what level to lights turn on and off (and they probably would be different).
          Just some food for thougth.
           
          Keep up the good work with lighting controls under BacNet.

          Paul K. Ericson, VP
          VP Lighting Design, Syska Hennessy Group
          San Diego, CA

          --- On Thu, 6/4/09, David Ritter <dritter@...> wrote:

          From: David Ritter <dritter@...>
          Subject: RE: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky
          To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:15 AM

          Hi Steve & all,

           

          I don’t know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.

           

          See you in Louisville.

           

          David Ritter M.Sc.

          Delta Controls Inc.

          17850 56th Ave

          Surrey, BC

          V3S 1C7

          604.574-8492 (direct)

          604.574.9444 (office)

          604.837-1330 (cellphone)

           

          From: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:BACnetLight ing@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
          Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
          To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
          Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky

           




          Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!

          We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
          in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
          http://www.galthous e.com/uploadedFi les/Meetings_ and_Events/ SUITE_Tower_ 3rdFloor_ Skywalk_Level. pdf

          All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
          The Galt House Hotel and Suites
          140 North Fourth St
          Louisville, KY 40202.

          As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
          and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
          will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
          June 21).

          LA-WG agenda items:

          1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.

          2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI (RLH-001)

          Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
          items to this list.

          Best Regards,

          Steve Karg
          The Watt Stopper / Legrand
          --
          http://steve. kargs.net/


        • Steve Karg
          Hi David, I will add the item to the agenda. Is not the Addendum that just went out for public review with Primitive Value objects and the Time reference not
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 8, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi David,

            I will add the item to the agenda.

            Is not the Addendum that just went out for public review with
            Primitive Value objects and the Time reference not sufficient for
            Sunrise and Sunset?

            Best Regards,

            Steve

            On 6/4/09, David Ritter <dritter@...> wrote:
            > Hi Steve & all,
            >
            >
            >
            > I don't know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but
            > could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to
            > the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are
            > currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they
            > would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.
            >
            >
            >
            > See you in Louisville.
            >
            >
            >
            > David Ritter M.Sc.
            >
            > Delta Controls Inc.
            >
            > 17850 56th Ave
            >
            > Surrey, BC
            >
            > V3S 1C7
            >
            > 604.574-8492 (direct)
            >
            > 604.574.9444 (office)
            >
            > 604.837-1330 (cellphone)
            >
            >
            >
            > From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
            > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
            > To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
            > Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!
            >
            > We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
            > in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
            > http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3
            > rdFloor_Skywalk_Level.pdf
            >
            > All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
            > The Galt House Hotel and Suites
            > 140 North Fourth St
            > Louisville, KY 40202.
            >
            > As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
            > and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
            > will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
            > June 21).
            >
            > LA-WG agenda items:
            >
            > 1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.
            >
            > 2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI
            > (RLH-001)
            >
            > Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
            > items to this list.
            >
            > Best Regards,
            >
            > Steve Karg
            > The Watt Stopper / Legrand
            > --
            > http://steve.kargs.net/
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Sent from my mobile device

            http://steve.kargs.net/
          • David Fisher
            Steve & David, One outcome of the interim meeting in Germantown was the review of comments on time references. My direction from that meeting s consensus was
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 9, 2009
            • 0 Attachment

              Steve & David,

               

              One outcome of the interim meeting in Germantown was the review of comments on

              time references. My direction from that meeting's consensus was to eliminate

              "offset" from time references because of the issues that result in Scheduling

              overflowing midnight by having them in there.

               

              Perhaps there is a way to salvage the notion of offseted time references by

              adding explicit caveats and clarification to Schedule clauses, but frankly

              there does not seem to be much support for doing this. Personally I would

              prefer to let someone who is deeply passionate about offset references

              take that on, since this small point is a sea anchor that has dragged down the

              rest of the proposal.

               

              David Fisher

              PolarSoft® Inc.

              914 South Aiken Ave

              Pittsburgh PA 15232-2212

              dfisher@...

              www.polarsoft.biz

              412-683-2018

              412-683-5228 fax

               


              From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
              Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:51 PM
              To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [BACnetLighting] Re: Meeting in Louisville , Kentucky

               




              Hi David,

              I will add the item to the agenda.

              Is not the Addendum that just went out for public review with
              Primitive Value objects and the Time reference not sufficient for
              Sunrise and Sunset?

              Best Regards,

              Steve

              On 6/4/09, David Ritter <dritter@deltacontro ls.com> wrote:

              > Hi Steve & all,
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't know if we will have time for this agenda item in
              w:st="on">Louisville but
              > could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to
              > the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are
              > currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they
              > would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.
              >
              >
              >
              > See you in Louisville .
              >
              >
              >
              > David Ritter M.Sc.
              >
              > Delta Controls Inc.
              >
              > 17850 56th Ave
              >
              > Surrey ,
              w:st="on">BC
              >
              > V3S 1C7
              >
              > 604.574-8492 (direct)
              >
              > 604.574.9444 (office)
              >
              > 604.837-1330 (cellphone)
              >
              >
              >
              > From: BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com
              > [mailto:BACnetLighting@ yahoogroups. com]
              On Behalf Of Steve Karg
              > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
              > To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
              > Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville ,
              Kentucky
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!
              >
              > We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
              > in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in
              w:st="on">Louisville , Kentucky .
              >
              href="http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3">http://www.galthous e.com/uploadedFi les/Meetings_ and_Events/ SUITE_Tower_ 3
              > rdFloor_Skywalk_ Level.pdf
              >
              > All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
              > The Galt House Hotel and Suites
              > 140 North Fourth St
              > Louisville ,
              w:st="on">KY 40202 .
              >
              > As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
              > and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
              > will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
              > June 21).
              >
              > LA-WG agenda items:
              >
              > 1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.
              >
              > 2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI
              > (RLH-001)
              >
              > Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
              > items to this list.
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Steve Karg
              > The Watt Stopper / Legrand
              > --
              > http://steve. kargs.net/
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Sent from my mobile device

              http://steve. kargs.net/

            • David Ritter
              Hi Steve & all, Thanks for all the responses to my previous email. Let me give a bit more background regarding the sunrise/sunset issue. As Steve has pointed
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment

                Hi Steve & all,

                 

                Thanks for all the responses to my previous email.

                 

                Let me give a bit more background regarding the sunrise/sunset issue. As Steve has pointed out there was an changed proposed to the BACnet schedule object in Addendum w called “Add reference times for scheduling”. There were public review comments on this part of the addendum which pointed out a few flaws with it and consequentially it was decided to remove it from the addendum when it goes out for a second public review (sometime this fall). I was tasked with coming up with new change proposal for adding sunrise/sunset to the BACnet schedule.

                 

                In internal meetings here at Delta last week this issue was discussed and it became obvious that simply adding sunrise/sunset to the schedule may cause problems and unintended results. The problems are realized in high north (and lower south locations) when sunrise and sunset can flip as you approach summer solstice. For example, today in Fairbanks Alaska the sun sets at 3:11 AM but rises at 12:29 AM. If you were to set up a BACnet schedule to control the parking lot lights to come on at sunset and turn off at midnight, this would work fine in Fairbanks until May 29th. On May 30th  Fairbanks does not have a sunset and on May 31st  sunset would occur at 12:02 AM so you would effectively leave the parking lot lights on for almost the whole day. An analogous situation occurs when you approach the winter solstice. It can be argued that adding sunrise and sunset, without explicit restrictions to avoid these complications, would be a bad thing.

                 

                As we were discussing how to solve this problem the question came up as to who would use this feature? Our lighting people indicated that they would rarely do a sunrise/sunset application using schedules but would use photocells. Paul’s email from Friday would seem to back this up.

                 

                So the question is do we really need sunrise and sunset infused into the BACnet schedule or are there better ways to handle this?

                 

                Thanks

                 

                David Ritter M.Sc.

                Delta Controls Inc.

                17850 56th Ave

                Surrey, BC

                V3S 1C7

                604.574-8492 (direct)

                604.574.9444 (office)

                604.837-1330 (cellphone)

                 

                From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
                Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:51 PM
                To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [BACnetLighting] Re: Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky

                 




                Hi David,

                I will add the item to the agenda.

                Is not the Addendum that just went out for public review with
                Primitive Value objects and the Time reference not sufficient for
                Sunrise and Sunset?

                Best Regards,

                Steve

                On 6/4/09, David Ritter <dritter@...> wrote:

                > Hi Steve & all,
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but
                > could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to
                > the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are
                > currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they
                > would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.
                >
                >
                >
                > See you in Louisville.
                >
                >
                >
                > David Ritter M.Sc.
                >
                > Delta Controls Inc.
                >
                > 17850 56th Ave
                >
                > Surrey, BC
                >
                > V3S 1C7
                >
                > 604.574-8492 (direct)
                >
                > 604.574.9444 (office)
                >
                > 604.837-1330 (cellphone)
                >
                >
                >
                > From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Steve Karg
                > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
                > To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
                > Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!
                >
                > We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
                > in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
                >
                href="http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3">http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3
                > rdFloor_Skywalk_Level.pdf
                >
                > All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
                > The Galt House Hotel and Suites
                > 140 North Fourth St
                > Louisville, KY 40202.
                >
                > As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
                > and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
                > will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
                > June 21).
                >
                > LA-WG agenda items:
                >
                > 1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.
                >
                > 2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI
                > (RLH-001)
                >
                > Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
                > items to this list.
                >
                > Best Regards,
                >
                > Steve Karg
                > The Watt Stopper / Legrand
                > --
                > http://steve.kargs.net/
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Sent from my mobile device

                http://steve.kargs.net/

              • David Ritter
                I should have proof read this before it went out: In Fairbanks today the sun rises at 3:11 AM but sets at 12:29 AM. From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment

                  I should have proof read this before it went out:

                   

                  In Fairbanks today the sun rises at 3:11 AM but sets at 12:29 AM.

                   

                  From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Ritter
                  Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:03 AM
                  To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [BACnetLighting] Re: Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky


                  Hi Steve & all,

                  Thanks for all the responses to my previous email.

                  Let me give a bit more background regarding the sunrise/sunset issue. As Steve has pointed out there was an changed proposed to the BACnet schedule object in Addendum w called “Add reference times for scheduling”. There were public review comments on this part of the addendum which pointed out a few flaws with it and consequentially it was decided to remove it from the addendum when it goes out for a second public review (sometime this fall). I was tasked with coming up with new change proposal for adding sunrise/sunset to the BACnet schedule.

                  In internal meetings here at Delta last week this issue was discussed and it became obvious that simply adding sunrise/sunset to the schedule may cause problems and unintended results. The problems are realized in high north (and lower south locations) when sunrise and sunset can flip as you approach summer solstice. For example, today in Fairbanks Alaska the sun sets at 3:11 AM but rises at 12:29 AM. If you were to set up a BACnet schedule to control the parking lot lights to come on at sunset and turn off at midnight, this would work fine in Fairbanks until May 29th. On May 30th  Fairbanks does not have a sunset and on May 31st  sunset would occur at 12:02 AM so you would effectively leave the parking lot lights on for almost the whole day. An analogous situation occurs when you approach the winter solstice. It can be argued that adding sunrise and sunset, without explicit restrictions to avoid these complications, would be a bad thing.

                  As we were discussing how to solve this problem the question came up as to who would use this feature? Our lighting people indicated that they would rarely do a sunrise/sunset application using schedules but would use photocells. Paul’s email from Friday would seem to back this up.

                   

                  So the question is do we really need sunrise and sunset infused into the BACnet schedule or are there better ways to handle this?

                   

                  Thanks

                   

                  David Ritter M.Sc.

                  Delta Controls Inc.

                  17850 56th Ave

                  Surrey, BC

                  V3S 1C7

                  604.574-8492 (direct)

                  604.574.9444 (office)

                  604.837-1330 (cellphone)

                   

                  From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Karg
                  Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:51 PM
                  To: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [BACnetLighting] Re: Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky

                   





                  Hi David,

                  I will add the item to the agenda.

                  Is not the Addendum that just went out for public review with
                  Primitive Value objects and the Time reference not sufficient for
                  Sunrise and Sunset?

                  Best Regards,

                  Steve

                  On 6/4/09, David Ritter <dritter@...> wrote:

                  > Hi Steve & all,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't know if we will have time for this agenda item in Louisville but
                  > could we have a brief discussion regarding adding sunrise and sunset to
                  > the schedule object? Specifically, I would like to know how people are
                  > currently using sunrise and sunset in their implementations and how they
                  > would expect it to work within a BACnet schedule.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > See you in Louisville.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > David Ritter M.Sc.
                  >
                  > Delta Controls Inc.
                  >
                  > 17850 56th Ave
                  >
                  > Surrey, BC
                  >
                  > V3S 1C7
                  >
                  > 604.574-8492 (direct)
                  >
                  > 604.574.9444 (office)
                  >
                  > 604.837-1330 (cellphone)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Steve Karg
                  > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:10 AM
                  > To: BACnet Lighting Working Group
                  > Subject: [BACnetLighting] Meeting in Louisville, Kentucky
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello BACnet Lighting Working Group!
                  >
                  > We are scheduled to meet on Thursday, June 18, 2009, from 8am to 5pm,
                  > in the Morrow Room of the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky.
                  >
                  href="http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3">http://www.galthouse.com/uploadedFiles/Meetings_and_Events/SUITE_Tower_3
                  > rdFloor_Skywalk_Level.pdf
                  >
                  > All meeting rooms are in the the conference hotel:
                  > The Galt House Hotel and Suites
                  > 140 North Fourth St
                  > Louisville, KY 40202.
                  >
                  > As usual, the plenary meetings for SSPC-135 BACnet will be on Saturday
                  > and Monday (June 20 and June 22). Other BACnet working group meetings
                  > will be held on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday (June 18, June 19, and
                  > June 21).
                  >
                  > LA-WG agenda items:
                  >
                  > 1. Review and respond to the SSPC-135-2008 Addendum i PPR3 Comments.
                  >
                  > 2. Discuss proposed Addendum H clause H.X Using BACnet with DALI
                  > (RLH-001)
                  >
                  > Please post any additional Lighting Application working group agenda
                  > items to this list.
                  >
                  > Best Regards,
                  >
                  > Steve Karg
                  > The Watt Stopper / Legrand
                  > --
                  > http://steve.kargs.net/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Sent from my mobile device

                  http://steve.kargs.net/

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