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Re: Feedback DMF-011

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  • jbroeker2712
    Hi Steve, No problem. I will try to write a Annex H.X. However, it might take a while, since currently I am pretty busy. Or do you think it is urgent? Best
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 18, 2006
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      Hi Steve,

      No problem. I will try to write a Annex H.X. However, it might take a
      while, since currently I am pretty busy. Or do you think it is urgent?

      Best regards,

      Jörg

      --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jörg,
      >
      > > > 2. add Power_On_Value
      > > I would add:
      > >
      > > "If the lighting output is a DALI ballast this value corresponds to
      > > the DALI register 'POWER-ON LEVEL' of the ballast."
      >
      > I think that this kind of information is valuable, but should not be
      > part of the Lighting Output object. We typically put this kind of
      > mapping in ANNEX H - COMBINING BACnet NETWORKS WITH NON-BACnet NETWORKS
      > (NORMATIVE). It will probably be similar to what was done with H.5
      > Using BACnet with EIB/KNX.
      >
      > Since you are familiar with the top, perhaps you can create the "Annex
      > H.X Using BACnet with DALI" proposal. If you are able, use the Change
      > Proposal Style Guide for guidance on the document structure. It can be
      > found at:
      > ftp://SSPC:135@.../home/SSPC/Change Proposal Style Guide v15.doc
      > When you are finished you can post it here on this list for feedback,
      > and then we can submit to the BACnet committee. What do you think?
      >
      > > > [change 12.X.4 Present_Value]
      > > >
      > > > If the object supports fading (indicated by the presence of
      Fade_Time),
      > > > ramping (indicated by the presence of Ramp_Rate), or delaying
      (indicated
      > > > by the presence of On_Delay), then it is possible that
      Present_Value may
      > > > not indicate the actual state of the lighting output due to a fade,
      > > > ramp, or delay in progress.
      > >
      > > Shouldn't Off_Delay be mentioned as well ("...or delaying (indicated
      > > by the presence of Off_Delay) ...")?
      >
      > Yes, it should.
      >
      > > Do you attend the Plug-Fest in Vancouver in two weeks? Me and a
      > > college of mine will be there. If so, maybe we can continue the
      > > discussion over a nice beer ... :-)
      >
      > I am planning to attend the BTL meetings and the Plugfest in Vancouver.
      > We can certainly continue the discussion there!
      >
      > > BTW, maybe you can direct me to a manufacturer of DALI equipment in
      > > the US. I need a 110V bus-power supply and ballast for the plug-fest.
      > > The stuff I have is 230V only.
      >
      > I have some. I will plan to bring a 110V DALI ballast and a bus-power
      > supply along.
      >
      > Best Regards,
      >
      > Steve Karg
      > Lithonia Lighting
      > --
      > http://kargs.net/
      >
    • Steve Karg
      Hi Jörg (and other interested parties), ... We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are discussing the use-case for On_Delay.
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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        Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),

        > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
        > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or vice
        > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these properties.

        We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are
        discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
        using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
        Output objects from creating a load spike.

        The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
        should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
        since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once, for
        example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing Output
        objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
        more problems than it solves.

        Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
        Output object?

        Best Regards,

        Steve Karg
        Lithonia Lighting
      • craig.spangler@us.schneider-electric.com
        Steve, We use the On_Delay in our lighting products. The main user of this feature is in large warehouses. It s not a real lighting application but here is
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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          Steve,

          We use the On_Delay in our lighting products. The main user of this feature is in large warehouses. It's not a "real" lighting application but here is how it is used. The large exhaust fans in warehouses have louvers that need opened before a fan starts and needs to close only after the fan stops. Typically the user will open the louvers 10 seconds before turning the fan on and wait a certain period of time after turning the fan off before closing them. I am not sure if there are other similar applications that are not lighting apps, but are used with lighting devices.

          Craig Spangler
          Staff Firmware Engineer
          Powerlink Group
          Square D / Schneider Electric




          Steve Karg <steve@...>
          Sent by: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com

          11/08/2006 10:45 AM

          Please respond to
          BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com

          To
          BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
          cc
          Subject
          Re: [BACnetLighting] Feedback DMF-011





          Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),

          > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
          > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
          vice
          > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these properties.

          We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are
          discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
          using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
          Output objects from creating a load spike.

          The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
          should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
          since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once, for
          example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing Output
          objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
          more problems than it solves.

          Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
          Output object?

          Best Regards,

          Steve Karg
          Lithonia Lighting


          ________________________________________________________________________
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        • Steve Karg
          Hello Lighting Applications working group! DMF-011 - The BACnet Lighting Output object was voted out for public review today (13-0-2) at the SSPC 135 committee
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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            Hello Lighting Applications working group!

            DMF-011 - The BACnet Lighting Output object was voted out for public
            review today (13-0-2) at the SSPC 135 committee meeting in Atlanta,
            Georgia. We included the "Tripped" reliability status from STK-015. We
            still have some work to do adding the ANSI/ASHRAE 135.1 tests for this
            object, and getting the document into the correct format for public
            review. Thank you David Fisher of Polarsoft for continuing to work on
            this object. Thank you to the members of this working group for putting
            this object together and reviewing it.

            We also discussed STK-004 - Multiplexer object, DMF-032 - WriteGroup
            Service, DMF-030 - WriteGroupMode Service. The general consensus after
            a long discussion was that the Lighting Applications working group needs
            to re-convene to consolidate the three ideas into a single proposal.
            Although we can collaborate online or meet to discuss these at another
            venue, the next BACnet meeting is planned to be held January 27-31,
            2007, in Dallas, Texas. More details about a specific date and time for
            a meeting will be posted here as it becomes available. More details
            about the ASHRAE meeting in Dallas can be found on their website:
            http://www.ashrae.org/dallas

            Best Regards,

            Steve Karg
            Lithonia Lighting
          • jbroeker2712
            Hi Steve, as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it is, that I
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 10, 2006
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              Hi Steve,

              as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of
              any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it
              is, that I have taken a look at lighting controllers for LonWorks and
              at least the ones I looked at have this feature. So I thought they
              must have a reason to implement that. Maybe that was naive ... ;-)

              Seriously, I do not have any objection if this property is removed.

              Best regards,

              Jörg

              p.s.: Did not find the time to review the current/new proposal. Since
              I am on vacation starting next week, I will have to take a look at it
              when I come back.

              --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),
              >
              > > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
              > > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
              vice
              > > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these
              properties.
              >
              > We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and
              are
              > discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
              > using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
              > Output objects from creating a load spike.
              >
              > The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
              > should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
              > since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once,
              for
              > example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing
              Output
              > objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
              > more problems than it solves.
              >
              > Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
              > Output object?
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Steve Karg
              > Lithonia Lighting
              >
            • Langels, Hans-Joachim
              Hello Steve, an On-Delay is not uncommon for output devices in the industry. Hence, I see value in keeping this Property. Best regards, Hans J. Langels Siemens
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 11, 2006
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                Hello Steve,

                an On-Delay is not uncommon for output devices in the industry.

                Hence, I see value in keeping this Property.

                Best regards,
                Hans J. Langels

                Siemens AG
                A&D ET BC PM
                Product Management
                Siemensstrasse 10
                93055 Regensburg
                GERMANY

                FON: +49 (941) 790-2992
                FAX: +49 (941) 790-2603
                MOBILE: +49 (151) 121-32281
                EMAIL: Hans-Joachim.Langels@...

                Technische Dokumentation instabus EIB und Produktdatenbankeinträge für ETS
                http://www.ad.siemens.de/et/gamma/html_00/support/techdoku.htm

                Technical Documentation instabus EIB and productdatabase for ETS
                http://www.ad.siemens.de/et/gamma/html_76/support/techdoku.htm

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                -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                Von: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von jbroeker2712
                Gesendet: Freitag, 10. November 2006 10:18
                An: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                Betreff: [BACnetLighting] Re: Feedback DMF-011

                Hi Steve,

                as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of
                any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it
                is, that I have taken a look at lighting controllers for LonWorks and
                at least the ones I looked at have this feature. So I thought they
                must have a reason to implement that. Maybe that was naive ... ;-)

                Seriously, I do not have any objection if this property is removed.

                Best regards,

                Jörg

                p.s.: Did not find the time to review the current/new proposal. Since
                I am on vacation starting next week, I will have to take a look at it
                when I come back.

                --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),
                >
                > > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
                > > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
                vice
                > > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these
                properties.
                >
                > We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and
                are
                > discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
                > using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
                > Output objects from creating a load spike.
                >
                > The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
                > should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
                > since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once,
                for
                > example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing
                Output
                > objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
                > more problems than it solves.
                >
                > Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
                > Output object?
                >
                > Best Regards,
                >
                > Steve Karg
                > Lithonia Lighting
                >





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