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Re: [BACnetLighting] Re: Feedback DMF-011

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  • Steve Karg
    Hi Jörg, ... I think that this kind of information is valuable, but should not be part of the Lighting Output object. We typically put this kind of mapping
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 16, 2006
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      Hi Jörg,

      > > 2. add Power_On_Value
      > I would add:
      >
      > "If the lighting output is a DALI ballast this value corresponds to
      > the DALI register 'POWER-ON LEVEL' of the ballast."

      I think that this kind of information is valuable, but should not be
      part of the Lighting Output object. We typically put this kind of
      mapping in ANNEX H - COMBINING BACnet NETWORKS WITH NON-BACnet NETWORKS
      (NORMATIVE). It will probably be similar to what was done with H.5
      Using BACnet with EIB/KNX.

      Since you are familiar with the top, perhaps you can create the "Annex
      H.X Using BACnet with DALI" proposal. If you are able, use the Change
      Proposal Style Guide for guidance on the document structure. It can be
      found at:
      ftp://SSPC:135@.../home/SSPC/Change Proposal Style Guide v15.doc
      When you are finished you can post it here on this list for feedback,
      and then we can submit to the BACnet committee. What do you think?

      > > [change 12.X.4 Present_Value]
      > >
      > > If the object supports fading (indicated by the presence of Fade_Time),
      > > ramping (indicated by the presence of Ramp_Rate), or delaying (indicated
      > > by the presence of On_Delay), then it is possible that Present_Value may
      > > not indicate the actual state of the lighting output due to a fade,
      > > ramp, or delay in progress.
      >
      > Shouldn't Off_Delay be mentioned as well ("...or delaying (indicated
      > by the presence of Off_Delay) ...")?

      Yes, it should.

      > Do you attend the Plug-Fest in Vancouver in two weeks? Me and a
      > college of mine will be there. If so, maybe we can continue the
      > discussion over a nice beer ... :-)

      I am planning to attend the BTL meetings and the Plugfest in Vancouver.
      We can certainly continue the discussion there!

      > BTW, maybe you can direct me to a manufacturer of DALI equipment in
      > the US. I need a 110V bus-power supply and ballast for the plug-fest.
      > The stuff I have is 230V only.

      I have some. I will plan to bring a 110V DALI ballast and a bus-power
      supply along.

      Best Regards,

      Steve Karg
      Lithonia Lighting
      --
      http://kargs.net/
    • jbroeker2712
      Hi Steve, No problem. I will try to write a Annex H.X. However, it might take a while, since currently I am pretty busy. Or do you think it is urgent? Best
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 18, 2006
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        Hi Steve,

        No problem. I will try to write a Annex H.X. However, it might take a
        while, since currently I am pretty busy. Or do you think it is urgent?

        Best regards,

        Jörg

        --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jörg,
        >
        > > > 2. add Power_On_Value
        > > I would add:
        > >
        > > "If the lighting output is a DALI ballast this value corresponds to
        > > the DALI register 'POWER-ON LEVEL' of the ballast."
        >
        > I think that this kind of information is valuable, but should not be
        > part of the Lighting Output object. We typically put this kind of
        > mapping in ANNEX H - COMBINING BACnet NETWORKS WITH NON-BACnet NETWORKS
        > (NORMATIVE). It will probably be similar to what was done with H.5
        > Using BACnet with EIB/KNX.
        >
        > Since you are familiar with the top, perhaps you can create the "Annex
        > H.X Using BACnet with DALI" proposal. If you are able, use the Change
        > Proposal Style Guide for guidance on the document structure. It can be
        > found at:
        > ftp://SSPC:135@.../home/SSPC/Change Proposal Style Guide v15.doc
        > When you are finished you can post it here on this list for feedback,
        > and then we can submit to the BACnet committee. What do you think?
        >
        > > > [change 12.X.4 Present_Value]
        > > >
        > > > If the object supports fading (indicated by the presence of
        Fade_Time),
        > > > ramping (indicated by the presence of Ramp_Rate), or delaying
        (indicated
        > > > by the presence of On_Delay), then it is possible that
        Present_Value may
        > > > not indicate the actual state of the lighting output due to a fade,
        > > > ramp, or delay in progress.
        > >
        > > Shouldn't Off_Delay be mentioned as well ("...or delaying (indicated
        > > by the presence of Off_Delay) ...")?
        >
        > Yes, it should.
        >
        > > Do you attend the Plug-Fest in Vancouver in two weeks? Me and a
        > > college of mine will be there. If so, maybe we can continue the
        > > discussion over a nice beer ... :-)
        >
        > I am planning to attend the BTL meetings and the Plugfest in Vancouver.
        > We can certainly continue the discussion there!
        >
        > > BTW, maybe you can direct me to a manufacturer of DALI equipment in
        > > the US. I need a 110V bus-power supply and ballast for the plug-fest.
        > > The stuff I have is 230V only.
        >
        > I have some. I will plan to bring a 110V DALI ballast and a bus-power
        > supply along.
        >
        > Best Regards,
        >
        > Steve Karg
        > Lithonia Lighting
        > --
        > http://kargs.net/
        >
      • Steve Karg
        Hi Jörg (and other interested parties), ... We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are discussing the use-case for On_Delay.
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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          Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),

          > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
          > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or vice
          > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these properties.

          We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are
          discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
          using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
          Output objects from creating a load spike.

          The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
          should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
          since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once, for
          example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing Output
          objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
          more problems than it solves.

          Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
          Output object?

          Best Regards,

          Steve Karg
          Lithonia Lighting
        • craig.spangler@us.schneider-electric.com
          Steve, We use the On_Delay in our lighting products. The main user of this feature is in large warehouses. It s not a real lighting application but here is
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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            Steve,

            We use the On_Delay in our lighting products. The main user of this feature is in large warehouses. It's not a "real" lighting application but here is how it is used. The large exhaust fans in warehouses have louvers that need opened before a fan starts and needs to close only after the fan stops. Typically the user will open the louvers 10 seconds before turning the fan on and wait a certain period of time after turning the fan off before closing them. I am not sure if there are other similar applications that are not lighting apps, but are used with lighting devices.

            Craig Spangler
            Staff Firmware Engineer
            Powerlink Group
            Square D / Schneider Electric




            Steve Karg <steve@...>
            Sent by: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com

            11/08/2006 10:45 AM

            Please respond to
            BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com

            To
            BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
            cc
            Subject
            Re: [BACnetLighting] Feedback DMF-011





            Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),

            > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
            > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
            vice
            > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these properties.

            We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and are
            discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
            using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
            Output objects from creating a load spike.

            The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
            should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
            since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once, for
            example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing Output
            objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
            more problems than it solves.

            Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
            Output object?

            Best Regards,

            Steve Karg
            Lithonia Lighting


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          • Steve Karg
            Hello Lighting Applications working group! DMF-011 - The BACnet Lighting Output object was voted out for public review today (13-0-2) at the SSPC 135 committee
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 8, 2006
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              Hello Lighting Applications working group!

              DMF-011 - The BACnet Lighting Output object was voted out for public
              review today (13-0-2) at the SSPC 135 committee meeting in Atlanta,
              Georgia. We included the "Tripped" reliability status from STK-015. We
              still have some work to do adding the ANSI/ASHRAE 135.1 tests for this
              object, and getting the document into the correct format for public
              review. Thank you David Fisher of Polarsoft for continuing to work on
              this object. Thank you to the members of this working group for putting
              this object together and reviewing it.

              We also discussed STK-004 - Multiplexer object, DMF-032 - WriteGroup
              Service, DMF-030 - WriteGroupMode Service. The general consensus after
              a long discussion was that the Lighting Applications working group needs
              to re-convene to consolidate the three ideas into a single proposal.
              Although we can collaborate online or meet to discuss these at another
              venue, the next BACnet meeting is planned to be held January 27-31,
              2007, in Dallas, Texas. More details about a specific date and time for
              a meeting will be posted here as it becomes available. More details
              about the ASHRAE meeting in Dallas can be found on their website:
              http://www.ashrae.org/dallas

              Best Regards,

              Steve Karg
              Lithonia Lighting
            • jbroeker2712
              Hi Steve, as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it is, that I
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 10, 2006
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                Hi Steve,

                as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of
                any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it
                is, that I have taken a look at lighting controllers for LonWorks and
                at least the ones I looked at have this feature. So I thought they
                must have a reason to implement that. Maybe that was naive ... ;-)

                Seriously, I do not have any objection if this property is removed.

                Best regards,

                Jörg

                p.s.: Did not find the time to review the current/new proposal. Since
                I am on vacation starting next week, I will have to take a look at it
                when I come back.

                --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),
                >
                > > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
                > > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
                vice
                > > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these
                properties.
                >
                > We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and
                are
                > discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
                > using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
                > Output objects from creating a load spike.
                >
                > The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
                > should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
                > since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once,
                for
                > example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing
                Output
                > objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
                > more problems than it solves.
                >
                > Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
                > Output object?
                >
                > Best Regards,
                >
                > Steve Karg
                > Lithonia Lighting
                >
              • Langels, Hans-Joachim
                Hello Steve, an On-Delay is not uncommon for output devices in the industry. Hence, I see value in keeping this Property. Best regards, Hans J. Langels Siemens
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 11, 2006
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                  Hello Steve,

                  an On-Delay is not uncommon for output devices in the industry.

                  Hence, I see value in keeping this Property.

                  Best regards,
                  Hans J. Langels

                  Siemens AG
                  A&D ET BC PM
                  Product Management
                  Siemensstrasse 10
                  93055 Regensburg
                  GERMANY

                  FON: +49 (941) 790-2992
                  FAX: +49 (941) 790-2603
                  MOBILE: +49 (151) 121-32281
                  EMAIL: Hans-Joachim.Langels@...

                  Technische Dokumentation instabus EIB und Produktdatenbankeinträge für ETS
                  http://www.ad.siemens.de/et/gamma/html_00/support/techdoku.htm

                  Technical Documentation instabus EIB and productdatabase for ETS
                  http://www.ad.siemens.de/et/gamma/html_76/support/techdoku.htm

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                  -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                  Von: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von jbroeker2712
                  Gesendet: Freitag, 10. November 2006 10:18
                  An: BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com
                  Betreff: [BACnetLighting] Re: Feedback DMF-011

                  Hi Steve,

                  as I mentioned in a previous discussion, I personally do not know of
                  any specific application for On_Delay. The reason, why I suggested it
                  is, that I have taken a look at lighting controllers for LonWorks and
                  at least the ones I looked at have this feature. So I thought they
                  must have a reason to implement that. Maybe that was naive ... ;-)

                  Seriously, I do not have any objection if this property is removed.

                  Best regards,

                  Jörg

                  p.s.: Did not find the time to review the current/new proposal. Since
                  I am on vacation starting next week, I will have to take a look at it
                  when I come back.

                  --- In BACnetLighting@yahoogroups.com, Steve Karg <steve@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Jörg (and other interested parties),
                  >
                  > > o On_Delay (REAL, seconds) Off_Delay (REAL, seconds): If the
                  > > Present_Value is changed from 0 to some value greater than zero or
                  vice
                  > > versa the dim action is delayed for the time given in these
                  properties.
                  >
                  > We are discussing DMF-011-10 in SSPC 135 BACnet committee today, and
                  are
                  > discussing the use-case for On_Delay. The only use-case that we see is
                  > using it for distributed start to keep the load from many Lighting
                  > Output objects from creating a load spike.
                  >
                  > The objections of having an On_Delay property is that this use-case
                  > should really be a client feature, not an end-point object feature,
                  > since scheduling a lot of Lighting Output objects would happen once,
                  for
                  > example, in the morning. Any subsequent accesses to the Ligthing
                  Output
                  > objects would probably not need the On_Delay, and so On_Delay creates
                  > more problems than it solves.
                  >
                  > Any discussion for or against having On_Delay property in the Lighting
                  > Output object?
                  >
                  > Best Regards,
                  >
                  > Steve Karg
                  > Lithonia Lighting
                  >





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