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Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07

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  • TCD3125@aol.com
    The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal.
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 5 2:33 PM
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      "The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal. When this meeting is over, we should have a final text to return to the advancement packet as our baronial charter, with all issues addressed."
       
      With the major changes being made to this document is there a plan to send it to the populace as we did for the First Charter.  I am uneasy with major revisions being made to a document and then being submitted without giving the people it will affect a chance to voice their opinions and vote upon it's adoption. 
       
      Tim  


    • Bernal Schooley
      Greetings Tim, The changes to the charter so far have either been to comply with kingdom law or have been made to clarify the original meaning without changing
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 7 8:53 AM
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        Greetings Tim,

        The changes to the charter so far have either been to comply with kingdom law or have been made to clarify the original meaning without changing it.

        If all goes well at today's meeting, the final set of changes will comply with Their Majesties wishes while still retaining as much of our original intent as possible.

        I will make sure that your concern is brought up at the meeting today. We will at the least, publish the changes on the Ayreton mailing list for review as has been our practice all along. But assuming there is agreement at the meeting today, we will also submit the changes to the Kingdom Seneschal for his review as well. Then, assuming there are no significant objections, we will then resubmit the petition.

        In your service,
        --Richard

        On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:33 PM, <TCD3125@...> wrote:


         
         
        "The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal. When this meeting is over, we should have a final text to return to the advancement packet as our baronial charter, with all issues addressed."
         
        With the major changes being made to this document is there a plan to send it to the populace as we did for the First Charter.  I am uneasy with major revisions being made to a document and then being submitted without giving the people it will affect a chance to voice their opinions and vote upon it's adoption. 
         
        Tim  





      • kevin purtrell
        I agree with Tim. I consider this to be a major revision, and should be discussed in our local groups for at least 2-3 months.  I can in no way condone what
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 14 10:23 AM
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          I agree with Tim.
          I consider this to be a major revision, and should be discussed in our local groups for at least 2-3 months.  I can in no way condone what his Majesty proposes. It gives the Baron & Baroness way too much power. They decide who the Offiicers are, Who runs Events, and which Events are to be held. There is no recourse for the Populace if they Baron & Baroness are unacceptable. They only power we have is to shun them.
           
          Kevin Ambrozijwski

          --- On Fri, 2/5/10, TCD3125@... <TCD3125@...> wrote:

          From: TCD3125@... <TCD3125@...>
          Subject: [Ayreton] Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07
          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 4:33 PM

           
           
           
          "The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal. When this meeting is over, we should have a final text to return to the advancement packet as our baronial charter, with all issues addressed."
           
          With the major changes being made to this document is there a plan to send it to the populace as we did for the First Charter.  I am uneasy with major revisions being made to a document and then being submitted without giving the people it will affect a chance to voice their opinions and vote upon it's adoption. 
           
          Tim  



        • Jill Elaine Hughes
          I m not at all into SCA politics. I hate them with a passion in fact. So take the below with a huge grain of salt.  I m just a passive observer who likes to
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 14 11:35 AM
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            I'm not at all into SCA politics. I hate them with a passion in fact. So take the below with a huge grain of salt.  I'm just a passive observer who likes to watch these things objectively from the sidelines.
             
            I'm not usually someone who pipes in on subjects like this, but what is being proposed is simply how all other baronies in the Midrealm (and in other kingdoms) are run.  I remember it being this way when I was a kid in Flaming Gryphon back in the 80s.  It's not necessarily a bad thing.  In many ways, it's a good thing, especially if the Populace makes their polling choices carefully and conscientiously.  An effective Baron and Baroness rules in full cooperation with the Populace, and not as tyrants with iron fists.  Diplomacy is an important part of the job and an essential skill. 
             
            On the other hand, I've personally seen how poor choices in Barons and Baronesses can wreak havoc on a barony.  The Populace should elect someone who can rule benevolently, not someone who just looks good in armor and pretty garb and fights well. It shouldn't be a popularity contest. We the people have the ultimate power in this regard, since we help elect our barons and baronesses.
             
            The Midrealm has more limits on royal/peer power than just about any other kingdom, too, thanks to the Curia.  If we lived anywhere else, the King's word would be law, and there wouldn't be much any of us could do about it.   And it's also my understanding that term limits for barons/baronesses have been added in recent years (way back when, it was basically a lifetime appointment, so if you didn't like a Baron/Baroness, your only option was to either shut up or move to another barony). 
             
            The Middle Kingdom is not a democracy. That's why we have a King and Queen and not an elected president. Democracy didn't exist in the Middle Ages either.  Just saying.
             

            YIS,

            Lady Marissa de Courette


          • Bernal Schooley
            Greeting Kevin, While we did make some adjustments to the charter in light of His Majesties wishes, we didn t change the intent of the charter that we created.
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 14 11:59 AM
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              Greeting Kevin,

              While we did make some adjustments to the charter in light of His Majesties wishes, we didn't change the intent of the charter that we created. In the final version that came out of the charter meeting last Sunday, we actually removed the part where the Baron & Baron have to approve the officers. The changes we ended up with for officer selection were made to reflect kingdom law and are actually a copy of the wording used in Flaming Gryphon's charter. In section IX, it clearly states that events are under the purview of the baronial curia. And the section on decision making was changed to reflect both the wishes of His Majesty regarding the authority of the Baron and Baroness, while at the same time more clearly defining framework within which that authority can be exercised. To put it plainly it states what is there's by kingdom law or the charter is theirs, what is the purview of baronial officers is theirs, and anything left over is for the Baron and Baroness to decide only after they take into consideration the advice of the curia.

              I do plan to present the changes at the meeting tonight and take a vote on whether to proceed or not. This is the same process we used for approving the previous version of the charter as well.

              If anyone can't make it tonight and wants to put in a proxy vote, please send me an email with your vote. I've already received several proxy votes from others.

              In your service,
              --Richard de Scolay

              On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:23 PM, kevin purtrell <krpurtell@...> wrote:


              I agree with Tim.
              I consider this to be a major revision, and should be discussed in our local groups for at least 2-3 months.  I can in no way condone what his Majesty proposes. It gives the Baron & Baroness way too much power. They decide who the Offiicers are, Who runs Events, and which Events are to be held. There is no recourse for the Populace if they Baron & Baroness are unacceptable. They only power we have is to shun them.
               
              Kevin Ambrozijwski

              --- On Fri, 2/5/10, TCD3125@... <TCD3125@...> wrote:

              From: TCD3125@... <TCD3125@...>
              Subject: [Ayreton] Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07
              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 4:33 PM


               
               
               
              "The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal. When this meeting is over, we should have a final text to return to the advancement packet as our baronial charter, with all issues addressed."
               
              With the major changes being made to this document is there a plan to send it to the populace as we did for the First Charter.  I am uneasy with major revisions being made to a document and then being submitted without giving the people it will affect a chance to voice their opinions and vote upon it's adoption. 
               
              Tim  






            • kevin purtrell
              Sorry. The new job fried my brain. I had two weeks from conception of the new job, training, training my replacement, finishing up projects, and cleaning out
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 15 7:12 AM
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                Sorry. The new job fried my brain. I had two weeks from conception of the new job, training, training my replacement, finishing up projects, and cleaning out my desk.  Nevermind.
                 
                -Kevin Ambrozijwski

                --- On Sun, 2/14/10, Jen Small <jenrsmall@...> wrote:

                From: Jen Small <jenrsmall@...>
                Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07
                To: krpurtell@...
                Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 1:49 PM

                Kevin, did you re-read the newly revised charter?  I had read it once after Robyyan published it, and then again just now after your email -- it doesn't look like the charter works the way you say it does below.  Specifically, it indicates that there's a vote for officers, and that events are approved by Curia.  What are your concerns?

                --Gianetta



                From: kevin purtrell <krpurtell@...>
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, February 14, 2010 12:23:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07

                 
                I agree with Tim.
                I consider this to be a major revision, and should be discussed in our local groups for at least 2-3 months.  I can in no way condone what his Majesty proposes. It gives the Baron & Baroness way too much power. They decide who the Offiicers are, Who runs Events, and which Events are to be held. There is no recourse for the Populace if they Baron & Baroness are unacceptable. They only power we have is to shun them.
                 
                Kevin Ambrozijwski

                --- On Fri, 2/5/10, TCD3125@aol. com <TCD3125@aol. com> wrote:

                From: TCD3125@aol. com <TCD3125@aol. com>
                Subject: [Ayreton] Re:[CHARTER] Agenda for 2010-02-07
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 4:33 PM

                 
                 
                 
                "The goal for this meeting is to edit the charter to resolve issues that make it unacceptable to Their Majesties or are of concern to the kingdom Seneschal. When this meeting is over, we should have a final text to return to the advancement packet as our baronial charter, with all issues addressed."
                 
                With the major changes being made to this document is there a plan to send it to the populace as we did for the First Charter.  I am uneasy with major revisions being made to a document and then being submitted without giving the people it will affect a chance to voice their opinions and vote upon it's adoption. 
                 
                Tim  





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