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Re: Question from Town Meeting

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  • David Roland
    Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience. That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton can
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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      Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience.

      That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady
      Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
      business as has been previously discussed at length. They have been
      used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
      meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as a
      way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
      official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business are
      not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list are
      discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
      Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as the
      Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who read
      this list should already be aware of.

      Ian the Green


      > That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that
      indicates
      > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
      venues,
      > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
      > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
      appropriate
      > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
      > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges
      an
      > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
      >
      > Cordially,
      > Christian Fournier
      >
    • John Adams
      Good morning, all. Hopefully whatever snarkiness some have perceived, it has not been on my part, for that has not been my intent. While it is true that some
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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        Good morning, all.

         

        Hopefully whatever 'snarkiness' some have perceived, it has not been on my part, for that has not been my intent.

         

        While it is true that some SCA business is required to be conducted at events, such as court business (e.g. awards, etc), and that some local business is conducted at events, e.g. presentations to the Crown, etc., please do not distort my meaning when I refer to Baronial business.

         

        As has been stated several times, by several good people, that this proposed transition to Barony is hardly business-as-usual, and should be an inclusive process, not an exclusive one. I know you, Master Christian, have agreed with that, both in principal and in writing. That having been said, I think my meaning should be plain when I reiterate that local business related to the proposed transition should be conducted in an open forum (meaning not in a forum where there is a pre-requisite for attendance), and convening unannounced meetings exclusively at events does not meet that criterion.

         

        As for official SCA business, on the whole, face-to-face business is indeed held 'whenever it is possible and appropriate to do so', and I believe the operative term there is 'appropriate'. In my 35 years in the Society, that tradition is routinely predicated upon the subject at hand, and to generalize that all SCA business is simply conducted at the whims of decision makers would be misleading.

        -- Grimkirk

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Christian Fournier <cf@...>
        To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:21:47 AM
        Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

        .
        And the issue of holding business at events where a gate fee is required to attend remains.

        Hesitant as I am to step into the snarkfest here, this is actually a point that I've been thinking about lately, and I'm eager to share those thoughts...  so, here goes:

        I would like to suggest, as clearly as I can, that it is a noble and laudable goal that we should discuss business related to the transition process at open events, free to any who wish to come (member and non-member alike).  I'm very pleased to know that the officer election will occur in such a venue.

        That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that indicates that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open venues, and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and appropriate to do so.  To suggest that no official business may occur at official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges an entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.  

         Cordially,
         Christian Fournier



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      • John Adams
        ... Master Phillip, while I most certainly make reference to appearances , I am not quite so certain what assumptions you think I am making. From the very
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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          :: sigh :: Please read my posts more closely.

           

          Master Phillip, while I most certainly make reference to 'appearances', I am not quite so certain what assumptions you think I am making. From the very beginning of this thread, I have been asking questions. Regrettably, what I have been getting in response (in some cases), have either not been very straightforward responses, or simply displeasure with my conclusions based upon those responses. In any case, I can assure you no conclusions have been inadvertently 'jumped to'. Respectfully, please read my posts more closely.

           

          Indeed, e-mail can be a pale replacement for face-to-face communication. However, the SCA wasn't crafted solely for the young and child-less (e.g. 'real life'), and to suggest that people not make decisions on which events to attend based upon what is to transpire there in particular is rather unrealistic. I hope you're not suggesting that only people who attend the events where these ad-hoc meetings are being held are entitled to participate in the process of transition. Or are you?

           

          In case you've forgotten, electronic forms of communication have recently been promoted in the strongest of terms as acceptable modes of communication (TGS list, 1.29.08, Subject: Dragon Runes), especially in lieu of more traditional forms such as snail-mailed newsletters. Consequently, I don't feel that conducting this exchange via this list is inappropriate.

           

          As for my attendance, I have been to two of the three events held in Chicagoland since the first of this year. I've even had several face-to-face conversations at both. Just ask either the Kingdom Transition Officer, or the Lord Mayor, both to whom I spoke at length. And I have missed but few local business meetings in the last two years, and attended many committee meetings to form the TGS Charter. Therefore, I really don't think my level of participation or attendance is a subject for discussion or oblique criticism.

           

          I have not referred to the Towne Hall meeting as 'secret'. Please do not misrepresent my words with pejoratives. I have referred to the Towne Hall meeting as unannounced. That is a fact. My remark about what information was 'out', and subsequent query about it, was in reference to the premature announcement of candidates for the incipient-Barony. Again, please read my posts more closely.

           

          Contrary to your inference. I am not without patience, and I am entirely confident that Mistress Gianetta will post the minutes at her earliest convenience. As she can attest, I have not bothered her with any concerns about it. I did make a request of you, however, to which you haven't replied. Perhaps you missed it? I suggest you read my posts more closely.

           

          Thus far, the only point on which we appear to agree is that we do our best when working in 'harmony' (since, in truth we need not all be "friends"). But, please, do not confuse friendly, impromptu dialogs with the conduct of official business.

           

          And please, read my posts more closely.

           

          -- Grimkirk

           

           

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Craig <philipwhite@...>
          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34:22 AM
          Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

          Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

          You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
          caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
          you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
          conclusions.

          A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
          to say "it is out."

          I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
          all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
          please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
          you have.

          I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
          perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
          in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
          in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
          email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

          Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
          called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
          Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
          Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

          Your Servant to Command,
          ~Philip White

          > Master Phillip,
          >
          > Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
          > least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
          > events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
          > surprised that you
          thought that someone on this list
          > didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
          > Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
          > attend fighting events when they know fighting is
          > taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
          > announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
          > all the citizens of a community expected to know they
          > should attend an event where business meetings are
          > being convened unless such information is made public?
          > And since you seem confused about my questions,
          > permit me to explain.
          >
          > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
          > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
          > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
          > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
          > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
          > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend
          public
          > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' .
          >
          > I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
          > year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
          > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
          > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
          > find it presented only stale information about last
          > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
          > can confirm that?)
          >
          > Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
          > were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
          > website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
          > full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
          > the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
          > expectation does exist for business meetings at events
          > being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
          > reasonable expectation for members to have to
          check
          > the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
          > expects members to look for regular local business on
          > an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
          > been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
          > relevant venue that I am aware of.
          >
          > Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
          > community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
          > to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
          > Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
          > somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
          > Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
          > business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
          > which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
          > being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
          > in which case, why was it not announced?
          >
          > Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or
          the
          > appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
          > participants and its staff. But just because a group
          > lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
          > justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
          > and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
          > autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
          > to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
          > only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
          > hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.
          >
          > 'Introducing the volunteers' for the
          > incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
          > than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
          > were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
          > Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
          > to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
          > expect them to be there, if information about this
          >
          meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
          > business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
          > were there), a full week before the event and nothing
          > was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
          > anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
          > anything related to baronial business was to be held
          > at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
          > the locals), anywhere?
          >
          > Given that official information was dispensed
          > indicates that official business was conducted. And
          > the previously announced schedule for presenting
          > candidates for those offices to the populace has not
          > taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
          > business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
          > unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
          > that some who might have attended had they known were
          > left out of the process,
          regardless of whether any
          > decisions about anything were made this weekend or
          > not.
          >
          > Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
          > perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
          > for which offices, and who of those people were there
          > to speak on their own behalf?
          >
          >
          > In Service,
          > (since A.S. VII)
          >
          > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor



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        • Kyla
          Greetings all, Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent, although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections. If there is
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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            Greetings all,

            Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
            although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
            If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
            especially and particularly on this list.
            I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
            announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
            That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
            an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
            people out of the loop.

            If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
            then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
            disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

            Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
            this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
            makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
            In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
            kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

            Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
            as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
            attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
            gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
            all.
            Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
            meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
            of the event?

            Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
            That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

            Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
            Ravenslake, Midlands,
            Middle Kingdom

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
            Of Craig
            Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting


            Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

            You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
            caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
            you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
            conclusions.

            A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
            to say "it is out."

            I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
            all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
            please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
            you have.

            I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
            perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
            in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
            in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
            email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

            Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
            called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
            Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
            Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

            Your Servant to Command,
            ~Philip White

            > Master Phillip,
            >
            > Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
            > least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
            > events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
            > surprised that you thought that someone on this list
            > didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
            > Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
            > attend fighting events when they know fighting is
            > taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
            > announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
            > all the citizens of a community expected to know they
            > should attend an event where business meetings are
            > being convened unless such information is made public?
            > And since you seem confused about my questions,
            > permit me to explain.
            >
            > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
            > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
            > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
            > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
            > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
            > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
            > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.
            >
            > I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
            > year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
            > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
            > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
            > find it presented only stale information about last
            > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
            > can confirm that?)
            >
            > Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
            > were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
            > website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
            > full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
            > the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
            > expectation does exist for business meetings at events
            > being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
            > reasonable expectation for members to have to check
            > the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
            > expects members to look for regular local business on
            > an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
            > been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
            > relevant venue that I am aware of.
            >
            > Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
            > community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
            > to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
            > Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
            > somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
            > Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
            > business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
            > which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
            > being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
            > in which case, why was it not announced?
            >
            > Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or the
            > appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
            > participants and its staff. But just because a group
            > lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
            > justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
            > and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
            > autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
            > to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
            > only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
            > hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.
            >
            > 'Introducing the volunteers' for the
            > incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
            > than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
            > were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
            > Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
            > to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
            > expect them to be there, if information about this
            > meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
            > business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
            > were there), a full week before the event and nothing
            > was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
            > anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
            > anything related to baronial business was to be held
            > at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
            > the locals), anywhere?
            >
            > Given that official information was dispensed
            > indicates that official business was conducted. And
            > the previously announced schedule for presenting
            > candidates for those offices to the populace has not
            > taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
            > business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
            > unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
            > that some who might have attended had they known were
            > left out of the process, regardless of whether any
            > decisions about anything were made this weekend or
            > not.
            >
            > Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
            > perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
            > for which offices, and who of those people were there
            > to speak on their own behalf?
            >
            >
            > In Service,
            > (since A.S. VII)
            >
            > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor


            ------------------------------------

            ~~~~~

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          • John Adams
            Greetings. I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are not business meetings , especially in the context of matters related to the
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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              Greetings.
               
              I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are not 'business meetings', especially in the context of matters related to the incipient-Barony. Since the petition for transition, they have been used as such, and have been acknowledged by the committee as the forum in which business for the incipient-Barony would be conducted, at least until a more formal structure is arranged. At the very least, they are certainly no less an official function of the incipient-Barony, than the impending selection of officers for this unofficial Barony, that coming upon the advice of the Kingdom Transition Officer.
               
              I will acknowledge that 'spin' is quite period, and requires a skilled, master hand; but I believe that it is the most unworthy feature of this endeavor.
               
              -- Grimkirk
              ----- Original Message ----
              From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46:26 AM
              Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

              Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience.

              That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady
              Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
              business as has been previously discussed at length. They have been
              used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
              meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as a
              way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
              official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business are
              not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list are
              discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
              Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as the
              Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who read
              this list should already be aware of.

              Ian the Green

              > That said, there is no requirement
              of which I am aware that
              indicates
              > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
              venues,
              > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
              > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
              appropriate
              > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
              > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges
              an
              > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
              >
              > Cordially,
              > Christian Fournier
              >




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            • John Adams
              M lady Tabitha, I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                M'lady Tabitha,
                 
                I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you agree with me.
                 
                I am a plain spoken gentle, and my style is intent on one purpose: to make clear that which I see through the lens of many many years of Societal perspective. In truth, those who know me best know I seldom ask questions I don't already know the answer to. However, asking those questions 'in public' permits those with the answers to be forthcoming (or otherwise), and allows everyone paying attention to see/hear (and then think) for themselves. Someting about horses and water comes to mind.
                 
                Nevertheless, I appreciate that you share some of my viewpoints, and your gracious reply.
                -- Grimkirk
                    "Perspective is a burden only to those who have it."
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Kyla <skycat@...>
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:11:11 AM
                Subject: RE: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                Greetings all,

                Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
                although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
                If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
                especially and particularly on this list.
                I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
                announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
                That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
                an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
                people out of the loop.

                If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
                then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
                disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

                Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
                this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
                makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
                In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
                kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

                Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
                as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
                attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
                gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
                all.
                Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
                meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
                of the event?

                Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
                That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

                Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
                Ravenslake, Midlands,
                Middle Kingdom

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                Of Craig
                Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                conclusions.

                A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                to say "it is out."

                I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                you have.

                I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                Your Servant to Command,
                ~Philip White



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              • Sarafina Sinclair
                Good Morning Friends, I am working on updating the Ayreton webpage that I started a few years ago to include the information on the baronial transition. I will
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                  Good Morning Friends,
                  I am working on updating the Ayreton webpage that I started a few years ago to include the information on the baronial transition. I will include all newsletters and minutes. These are also available in the archives on the yahoo group, I believe.
                   
                  I will post all announcements of future meetings and anything else that comes up. I am kindly requesting that all candidates for baronial officers send me a short bio and statement about why you want to be elected from whichever position you are running for for the benefit of the populace. Also, if you will include a picture I will post it as well so that the folks can recognize each of the persons running. I will also include a link to your email (with permission) for those folks in the area to contact you directly. You can send all that to me at sarafina.sinclair@....
                   
                  My hope is to further reduce any misunderstandings or lack of communication and provide a static repository for information.
                   
                  The webpage can be found at http://ayreton.home.att.net. It is quite basic, but I will do my best to keep it up to date.
                   
                  As we continue down the path to barony, I urge everyone to continue to discuss the topics and speak up with your concerns. However, please remember that email is easy to misinterpret. Do not infer malice and think the best of each other.
                   
                  In Service,
                   
                  Sarafina

                  --
                  Mistress Sarafina Sinclair, OL
                  http://ladysarafina.home.att.net
                • David Roland
                  I will agree that spin is a most unworthy endevour and so I do not do so. Indeed every meeting I attended/was a part of very directly stated that official
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                    I will agree that "spin" is a most unworthy endevour and so I do not
                    do so. Indeed every meeting I attended/was a part of very directly
                    stated that official business regarding the Barony issue, voting of
                    interest etc. could only be done at local groups meetings. That the
                    Ayreton Towne meetings were a place where announcements regarding
                    results and any "progress" one way or the other could and would be
                    made. Often discussion about what those results and "progess" one
                    way or the other, meant did occur. The decisions were being made
                    within the local groups, presumably (though I have little direct
                    knowledge except for the shire I am a part of), at their business
                    meetings, which you did participate in by your own admission. As
                    the Ayreton Towne meetings merely made announcements of results
                    and "progress" one way or the other, they can hardly be called
                    official business meetings. Important? Some, including myself,
                    would certainly say they are/were important.

                    Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                    Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                    citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                    questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                    given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                    memories.

                    Ian

                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings.
                    >
                    > I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are
                    not 'business meetings', especially in the context of matters
                    related to the incipient-Barony. Since the petition for transition,
                    they have been used as such, and have been acknowledged by the
                    committee as the forum in which business for the incipient-Barony
                    would be conducted, at least until a more formal structure is
                    arranged. At the very least, they are certainly no less an official
                    function of the incipient-Barony, than the impending selection of
                    officers for this unofficial Barony, that coming upon the advice of
                    the Kingdom Transition Officer.
                    >
                    > I will acknowledge that 'spin' is quite period, and requires a
                    skilled, master hand; but I believe that it is the most unworthy
                    feature of this endeavor.
                    >
                    > -- Grimkirk
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                    > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46:26 AM
                    > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                    >
                    > Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my
                    experience.
                    >
                    > That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the
                    Lord/Lady
                    > Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
                    > business as has been previously discussed at length. They have
                    been
                    > used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
                    > meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as
                    a
                    > way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
                    > official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business
                    are
                    > not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list
                    are
                    > discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
                    > Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as
                    the
                    > Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who
                    read
                    > this list should already be aware of.
                    >
                    > Ian the Green
                    >
                    > > That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that
                    > indicates
                    > > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
                    > venues,
                    > > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
                    > > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
                    > appropriate
                    > > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
                    > > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event
                    charges
                    > an
                    > > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
                    > >
                    > > Cordially,
                    > > Christian Fournier
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    _____________________________________________________________________
                    _______________
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                  • Kyla
                    To be fair, Lord Grimkirk, I find it equally unfortunate that you must (justifiably) raise these questions at all. I find it hardly believable that no one
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                      To be fair, Lord Grimkirk, I find it equally unfortunate that you must (justifiably) raise these questions at all.
                      I find it hardly believable that no one thought about having this meeting until they were at the event.
                      Of course it is a time when a large number of the people involved will be in one place; it's an event!
                      I chalk it up to poor planning.
                       
                      I feel that I must point out to the event planners that their poor planning adversely effected my participation in the Ayreton Carnivale.
                       
                      Lord Grimkirk, I accept your apology, and I appreciate your graciousness in offering it.
                      As noted previously, if at all possible, someone WILL misunderstand anything said.  *sigh*
                       
                      Tabitha Pennywarden
                      Ravenslake, Midlands,
                      Middle Kingdom
                       
                      Who frequently bites her tongue, rather than be misunderstood.
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John Adams
                      Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:32 AM
                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                      M'lady Tabitha,
                       
                      I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you agree with me.
                       
                      I am a plain spoken gentle, and my style is intent on one purpose: to make clear that which I see through the lens of many many years of Societal perspective. In truth, those who know me best know I seldom ask questions I don't already know the answer to. However, asking those questions 'in public' permits those with the answers to be forthcoming (or otherwise), and allows everyone paying attention to see/hear (and then think) for themselves. Someting about horses and water comes to mind.
                       
                      Nevertheless, I appreciate that you share some of my viewpoints, and your gracious reply.
                      -- Grimkirk
                          "Perspective is a burden only to those who have it."
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Kyla <skycat@...>
                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:11:11 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                      Greetings all,

                      Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
                      although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
                      If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
                      especially and particularly on this list.
                      I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
                      announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
                      That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
                      an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
                      people out of the loop.

                      If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
                      then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
                      disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

                      Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
                      this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
                      makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
                      In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
                      kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

                      Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
                      as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
                      attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
                      gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
                      all.
                      Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
                      meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
                      of the event?

                      Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
                      That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

                      Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
                      Ravenslake, Midlands,
                      Middle Kingdom

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                      Of Craig
                      Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                      Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                      Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                      You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                      caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                      you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                      conclusions.

                      A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                      to say "it is out."

                      I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                      all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                      please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                      you have.

                      I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                      perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                      in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                      in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                      email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                      Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                      called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                      Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                      Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                      Your Servant to Command,
                      ~Philip White



                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                    • John Adams
                      Where: [Ayreton] Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer When: 2/17/08 1:05pm Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be on the docket at Stone Dog Inn
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                        Where: [Ayreton]
                        Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                        When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                        Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                        -- Grimkirk

                         
                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                        To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:48:18 AM
                        Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                        .

                        <snipped for brevity>


                        Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                        Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                        citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                        questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                        given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                        memories.

                        Ian




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                      • kateslists@comcast.net
                        ... From: John Adams Nevertheless, when I ... http://tilted-windmill.com/carnival/ This is the event website linked off the kingdoms
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          From: John Adams <auldefarte@...>
                          "Nevertheless, when I
                          > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                          > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                          > find it presented only stale information about last
                          > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                          > can confirm that?)

                          http://tilted-windmill.com/carnival/

                          This is the event website linked off the kingdoms calendar of events. It all looks like this years info to me.


                          > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                          > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                          > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                          > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                          > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                          > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                          > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.
                          >

                          I'm confused about why "Pay-to-Play" would matter. The SCA IS pay to play in many ways. We pay site fees to get into events. We pay membership fees if we want to hold office or fight. When the kingdom officially conducts baranial polling it will be based off the membership rolls. (I vaguely recall someone saying you could also vote by showing up in person ... )

                          IMHO, It was the "Areyton Carnival." Not one groups event - a combined event. Complaining that
                          Areyton business -whether pre-announced or not - occured at the Areyton even is disingenious at best.

                          Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the area even matter to you?
                          .
                          Bojei
                        • David Roland
                          Please correct me if I am wrong Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2175 that: I asked about gate fees
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Please correct me if I am wrong

                            Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2175
                            that:

                            "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                            well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                            meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                            business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                            Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                            of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                            business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'."

                            In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                            respone:

                            "> Where: [Ayreton]
                            > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                            > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                            > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                            on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                            was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                            Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                            based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                            >
                            > -- Grimkirk?

                            Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.

                            Link:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2021

                            Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process that
                            I believe is relavent:

                            "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                            to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                            information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                            populace meeting, independent of an event."

                            If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above" came
                            from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                            __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                            that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of an
                            event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                            at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                            on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                            group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                            same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.

                            As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                            please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                            needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or otherwise)
                            does not occur.

                            Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                            such.

                            Ian the Green


                            --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Where: [Ayreton]
                            > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                            > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                            > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                            on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                            was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                            Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                            based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                            >
                            > -- Grimkirk
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                            > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:48:18 AM
                            > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                            >
                            > .
                            > <snipped for brevity>
                            >
                            > Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                            > Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                            > citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                            > questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                            > given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                            > memories.
                            >
                            > Ian
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            _____________________________________________________________________
                            _______________
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                            > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                            http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                            >
                          • John Adams
                            I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would have this year s info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                              I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current (but still didn't mention the meeting).
                               
                              Why does it border on pay to play? Because the privilege of attending local business meetings is one of the things specifically NOT predicated upon membership.
                               
                              Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.
                               
                              And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be 'Kingdomers', instead.
                               
                              -- Grimkirk
                                  SCA #158733

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: "kateslists@..." <kateslists@...>
                              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:14:12 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                              ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                              From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                              "Nevertheless, when I
                              > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                              > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                              > find it presented only stale information about last
                              > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                              > can confirm that?)

                              http://tilted- windmill. com/carnival/

                              This is the event website linked off the kingdoms calendar of events. It all looks like this years info to me.

                              > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                              > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                              > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                              > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                              > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                              > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                              > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' .
                              >

                              I'm confused about why "Pay-to-Play" would matter. The SCA IS pay to play in many ways. We pay site fees to get into events. We pay membership fees if we want to hold office or fight. When the kingdom officially conducts baranial polling it will be based off the membership rolls. (I vaguely recall someone saying you could also vote by showing up in person ... )

                              IMHO, It was the "Areyton Carnival." Not one groups event - a combined event. Complaining that
                              Areyton business -whether pre-announced or not - occured at the Areyton even is disingenious at best.

                              Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the area even matter to you?
                              .
                              Bojei


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                            • John Adams
                              Cheerfully. A) The missive we ve quoted from the Towne Cryer indicates the intent to hold a non-event-based meeting. This is a fact that you have corroborated
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                Cheerfully.
                                 
                                A) The missive we've quoted from the Towne Cryer indicates the intent to hold a non-event-based meeting. This is a fact that you have corroborated through your own research, your interpretation of it not withstanding. Thank you.
                                 
                                B) IIRC, which I have no written proof of, statements of a similar nature were made at the meeting at SDI as well. Clearly my memory has no credibility with you, but it doesn't need it.
                                 
                                C) You are correct that no announcement of any such meeting has been made upon the list since that date, thus negating any real expectation of one. This doesn't change the fact that the expectation has already been set previously, that it remains an expectation, and that the meeting held at the AC wasn't announced in advance.
                                 
                                I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. Sadly, I suspect that is at the heart of some people's present dramatic consternation with me. If you concur with these observations, you may consider yourself corrected. Else, may we simply agree to disagree, with our mileages varying wildly.
                                 
                                -- Grimkirk

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:34:43 AM
                                Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                Please correct me if I am wrong

                                Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2175
                                that:

                                "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' ."

                                In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                                respone:

                                "> Where: [Ayreton]
                                > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                >
                                > -- Grimkirk?

                                Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.

                                Link:

                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2021

                                Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process that
                                I believe is relavent:

                                "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                                to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                                information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                                populace meeting, independent of an event."

                                If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above" came
                                from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                                __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                                that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of an
                                event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                                group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                                same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.

                                As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                                please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                                needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or otherwise)
                                does not occur.

                                Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                                such.

                                Ian the Green

                                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, John Adams <auldefarte@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Where: [Ayreton]
                                > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                >
                                > -- Grimkirk




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                              • kateslists@comcast.net
                                ... From: John Adams ... So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  From: John Adams <auldefarte@...>
                                  > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                  > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                  > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                  > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                  So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                  > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                  > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                  > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                  > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                  > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                  The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)


                                  > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                  > anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                  > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                  > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                  > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                  > 'Kingdomers', instead.

                                  Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                  I said
                                  > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                  > area even matter to you?

                                  So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                  Bojei
                                • John Adams
                                  Sure, Bojei. I m guessing here, but maybe it s because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they d feel like
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Sure, Bojei. I'm guessing here, but maybe it's because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they'd feel like participating in (maybe, for a change). It's not like you haven't known a 'kingdomer' or two in your day, nor why they've chosen to be one. Maybe it's because they feel this transition isn't in the best interest of the community, regardless of whether they 'play' (locally, or elsewhere). And besides, maybe they just feel for the $40+ they're out gives them some sense that they're entitled to a say. Slice it anyway you like, but in any case, it's not unreasonable.
                                     
                                    Re: Website. My point was that as recently as a few weeks ago (since SDI), the site didn't have current information. Another point was about exactly how late in the game are people expect to wait for current info to be posted, in order to make plans to attend?
                                    I don't think the Baronial heraldry activity, which was announced, constituted 'baronial business'. I understood it to be a function for those who wanted to have materials available to work a submission, something I frankly thought was a fabulous idea. Frankly, I'd like to see a Herald's point like that at more events, if only for those who don't yet have any personal heraldry submitted.
                                     
                                    YIS,
                                     
                                    -- Grimkirk
                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: "kateslists@..." <kateslists@...>
                                    To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:06:35 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                    ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                                    From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                                    > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                    > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                    > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                    > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                    So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                    > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                    > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                    > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                    > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                    > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                    The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)

                                    > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                    > anyone else, if they've paid
                                    for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                    > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                    > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                    > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                    > 'Kingdomers' , instead.

                                    Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                    I said
                                    > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                    > area even matter to you?

                                    So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                    Bojei


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                                  • Peg Cook
                                    Not to be super-picky, cuz lord knows I miss stuff myself, but on March 18th I received this posting to the Ayreton list--not to mention Village Green (and I
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Not to be super-picky, cuz lord knows I miss stuff myself, but on March 18th I received this posting to the Ayreton list--not to mention Village Green (and I think it got crossposted all over the place):

                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2157

                                      Greetings unto the Populace of Ayreton from the Town Cryer!
                                       
                                      REMINDERS:
                                       
                                      ***Elections for Officers for the Proto-Incipient Barony are coming soon!  If you would like to nominate yourself for any office, please send your name, the office you want, your home group, email, and a short (25 words) description of who you are to me, the Towne Cryer BY MARCH 31.  Remember that you must be a paid member to apply. 
                                       
                                      On April 2 the candidates will be announced for all offices.  Elections to be held on April 26th, voting from 1 - 2 pm, at the Congregational Church of Jefferson Park, 5320 West Giddings, 60630. Paid members may vote via proxy by email/snail mail/etc BY APRIL 25th, to any of the participating seneschals, if you cannot make the meeting.   Look for more information on the election process coming soon.
                                       
                                      **** There will be a brief Ayreton newsletter available at the Gatekeeper at Carnival this weekend!
                                       
                                      ****The Ayreton Device Competition will be held during Carnival.  Supplies will be available at the DizzyWulf merchant booth for anyone who wants to work on devices during the day.
                                       
                                      ****If you are pro-Barony and have not yet signed a Baronial Advancement petition, the petition for your local group will be available at Carnival -- please sign right away.  If you are opposed, you need to do nothing (abstain = no).
                                       
                                      Thanks everyone, and I look forward to seeing you on Saturday!


                                      Re-reading this, it seems like it could maybe have been spelled out a little more clearly that the "device competition" in question was for the PIB (as well as the procedures for said competition), but it seemed fairly obvious to me.  The newsletters were available all day, and I fail to see how an out-loud reading of such constitutes some kind of official business. Even the list of candidates was read as a partial, incomplete list of those who have so far thrown their hat into the ring. I was actually surprised by the disclosure that there hadn't been a preplanned Towne meeting at the Carnival--thinking back, I just "knew", in the way one knows these things, that there was going to be one. It may be that I read more into the quoted posting than was there--it's been known to happen.

                                      The words "we're making this up as we go along" were spoken at the meeting on Saturday, and I believe that this has been the case, all in good faith. However, we might be reaching a point, depending on the outcome of the initial petition, where it's no longer a good idea to keep making it up as we go. Of course the process of becoming a barony has its own procedures, etc, which will need to be followed. But there are plenty of other "baronial matters" that the populace of the barony will want to have some say in establishing. Careful thought about how that gets done should, IMO, be part of that process.

                                      YIS,

                                      Evzenie

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: John Adams
                                      Sent: Mar 24, 2008 1:20 PM
                                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                      Sure, Bojei. I'm guessing here, but maybe it's because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they'd feel like participating in (maybe, for a change). It's not like you haven't known a 'kingdomer' or two in your day, nor why they've chosen to be one. Maybe it's because they feel this transition isn't in the best interest of the community, regardless of whether they 'play' (locally, or elsewhere). And besides, maybe they just feel for the $40+ they're out gives them some sense that they're entitled to a say. Slice it anyway you like, but in any case, it's not unreasonable.
                                       
                                      Re: Website. My point was that as recently as a few weeks ago (since SDI), the site didn't have current information. Another point was about exactly how late in the game are people expect to wait for current info to be posted, in order to make plans to attend?
                                      I don't think the Baronial heraldry activity, which was announced, constituted 'baronial business'. I understood it to be a function for those who wanted to have materials available to work a submission, something I frankly thought was a fabulous idea. Frankly, I'd like to see a Herald's point like that at more events, if only for those who don't yet have any personal heraldry submitted.
                                       
                                      YIS,
                                       
                                      -- Grimkirk
                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: "kateslists@ comcast.net" <kateslists@comcast. net>
                                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                                      Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:06:35 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                      ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                                      From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                                      > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                      > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                      > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                      > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                      So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                      > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                      > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                      > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                      > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                      > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                      The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)

                                      > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                      > anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                      > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                      > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                      > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                      > 'Kingdomers' , instead.

                                      Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                      I said
                                      > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                      > area even matter to you?

                                      So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                      Bojei


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                                    • David Roland
                                      Grimkirk, Umm, no, I did not say that no announcment of any such meeting has been made upon the list since that date. Indeed I said the opposite. And so one
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Grimkirk,

                                        Umm, no, I did not say that no announcment of any such meeting has
                                        been made upon the list since that date. Indeed I said the opposite.

                                        "And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                        at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                        on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                                        group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                                        same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance."

                                        I specifically bring attention to a meeting being announced and on
                                        the list.

                                        Evzenzie quoted it and linked the site:

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2157

                                        "> I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. "


                                        As you say Lord Grimkirk about your carful reading...

                                        Ian the Green

                                        > C) You are correct that no announcement of any such meeting has
                                        been made upon the list since that date, thus negating any real
                                        expectation of one. This doesn't change the fact that the
                                        expectation has already been set previously, that it remains an
                                        expectation, and that the meeting held at the AC wasn't announced in
                                        advance.
                                        >
                                        > I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. Sadly, I suspect that is
                                        at the heart of some people's present dramatic consternation with
                                        me. If you concur with these observations, you may consider yourself
                                        corrected. Else, may we simply agree to disagree, with our mileages
                                        varying wildly.
                                        >
                                        > -- Grimkirk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                        > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:34:43 AM
                                        > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                                        >
                                        > Please correct me if I am wrong
                                        >
                                        > Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                                        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2175
                                        > that:
                                        >
                                        > "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                        > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                        > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                        > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                        > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                        > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                        > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' ."
                                        >
                                        > In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                                        > respone:
                                        >
                                        > "> Where: [Ayreton]
                                        > > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                        > > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                        > > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                        > on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                        > was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                        > Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                        > based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                        > >
                                        > > -- Grimkirk?
                                        >
                                        > Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.
                                        >
                                        > Link:
                                        >
                                        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2021
                                        >
                                        > Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process
                                        that
                                        > I believe is relavent:
                                        >
                                        > "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                                        > to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                                        > information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                                        > populace meeting, independent of an event."
                                        >
                                        > If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above"
                                        came
                                        > from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                                        > __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                                        > that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of
                                        an
                                        > event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                        > at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                        > on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the
                                        local
                                        > group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list
                                        for
                                        > same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.
                                        >
                                        > As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                                        > please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                                        > needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or
                                        otherwise)
                                        > does not occur.
                                        >
                                        > Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                                        > such.
                                        >
                                        > Ian the Green
                                        >
                                        > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, John Adams <auldefarte@ ...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Where: [Ayreton]
                                        > > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                        > > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                        > > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                        > on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                        > was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                        > Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                        > based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                        > >
                                        > > -- Grimkirk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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