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Question from Town Meeting

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  • Craig
    Greetings All – Thanks to everyone for making such a wonderful time at Carnivale. I had a ton of fun teaching and the performance set went great. And I loved
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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      Greetings All –

      Thanks to everyone for making such a wonderful time at Carnivale.

      I had a ton of fun teaching and the performance set went great. And I
      loved the Honey ham with a sauce of raisin wine and the watermelon
      with mint. Excellent.

      Yesterday during our Town Meeting there was a question brought up
      about officers also being able to run for Baron or Baroness. To
      follow up with what I stated at the meeting, I wanted to post the
      relevant Kingdom Policy to help clarify for those who were
      interested:

      From the Middle Kingdom Seneschal website under Baronial Polling and
      Advancement Information in the "Baronial Advancement and Transitions"
      section (http://www.midrealm.org/seneschal/BaronialAdvancement.pdf)"

      The rules for both types of transitions

      • A seneschal who is a candidate for baronial office will be asked to
      step down for the duration of the process. This person may re-assume
      the office once the process is complete (if they are not selected as
      Baron/Baroness). One may not hold the office of Baron/Baroness and
      the office of seneschal at the same level concurrently.

      Of course we don't want to put the cart before the horse – all of
      this may not even affect us depending on the outcome of our polling –
      but at least it will help answer the question as raised yesterday.

      Your Servant to Command,
      ~Philip White
    • John Adams
      Greetings, all. Happy Easter. A) What Towne Meeting? B) Was there no site fee charged for the Carnivale? I was under the impression since the meeting at Stone
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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        Greetings, all. Happy Easter.

        A) What Towne Meeting?

        B) Was there no site fee charged for the Carnivale? I
        was under the impression since the meeting at Stone
        Dog Inn, that the 'next' Towne Meeting would be held
        at a venue that would not require a site fee.

        C) When was it announced that there would be a Towne
        Meeting at the Ayreton Carnivale? I don't recall
        having seen any posting to that effect, or an
        announcement on our group's list (TGS). How were
        people expected to know to attend the event, even if
        only to attend the Towne Hall Meeting?

        D) Finally, I'm glad you had a good time, Master
        Phillip, but I'm presuming there will be meeting
        minutes from the Towne Cryer to follow along with some
        official answers to these questions?

        -- Lord Grimkirk


        --- Craig <philipwhite@...> wrote:

        > Greetings All –
        >
        > Thanks to everyone for making such a wonderful time
        > at Carnivale.
        >
        > I had a ton of fun teaching and the performance set
        > went great. And I
        > loved the Honey ham with a sauce of raisin wine and
        > the watermelon
        > with mint. Excellent.
        >
        > Yesterday during our Town Meeting there was a
        > question brought up
        > about officers also being able to run for Baron or
        > Baroness. To
        > follow up with what I stated at the meeting, I
        > wanted to post the
        > relevant Kingdom Policy to help clarify for those
        > who were
        > interested:
        >
        > From the Middle Kingdom Seneschal website under
        > Baronial Polling and
        > Advancement Information in the "Baronial Advancement
        > and Transitions"
        > section
        >
        (http://www.midrealm.org/seneschal/BaronialAdvancement.pdf)"
        >
        > The rules for both types of transitions
        >
        > • A seneschal who is a candidate for baronial office
        > will be asked to
        > step down for the duration of the process. This
        > person may re-assume
        > the office once the process is complete (if they are
        > not selected as
        > Baron/Baroness). One may not hold the office of
        > Baron/Baroness and
        > the office of seneschal at the same level
        > concurrently.
        >
        > Of course we don't want to put the cart before the
        > horse – all of
        > this may not even affect us depending on the outcome
        > of our polling –
        > but at least it will help answer the question as
        > raised yesterday.
        >
        > Your Servant to Command,
        > ~Philip White
        >
        >
        >



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • Craig
        Lord Grimkirk, and others who have similar questions – Perhaps I can address your questions, as my post appears to have confused you. Did you make the last
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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          Lord Grimkirk, and others who have similar questions –

          Perhaps I can address your questions, as my post appears to have
          confused you.

          Did you make the last Ayreton Carnivale? We met much in the same way
          as we did last year.

          You see, as our groups have no formal representatives of the Crown,
          the Lord Mayor gathers us together to thank everyone for their
          contributions of the day.

          He gives recognition to the people who have demonstrated their
          prowess on the field – those winners of the different tourneys. The
          regional A&S representative also called forward the different
          artisans to receive their recognition for entering the Regional A&S
          Fair.

          Yes, there was a site fee. I believe you know this because it was
          posted on the event website. I think you are referring to the next
          time we meet to discuss the issues surrounding the possible formation
          of a Barony. Our purpose in meeting yesterday was not for that
          purposes. No decisions were made; no one has been left out.

          The Mayor did bring up a few ideas for the possible Barony. But I
          don't think this should surprise you. It was posted on the webpage
          that people would be designing possible badges. Names were also
          proposed. He shared that with us. And as we were gathered together,
          those who have volunteered to hold a proto-incipient-Baronial
          position were introduced. We were told that all that information will
          be online, and we were reminded that more submissions for devise and
          name can be made, and that more people can volunteer for positions.

          Again, please keep in mind all of this may mean nothing depending on
          how our polling turns out.

          Also, in my experience, people are not expected to attend an event.
          Our organization is voluntary so it is the choice of the individual
          to come.

          And as usual, I expect the Cryer will post minutes. No need for you
          to presume. Our Cryer did make that commitment previously on this
          list. But, of course, I would ask us to be reasonable and allow her
          some time to post them.

          My apologies for any confusion I have caused you.

          Your Servant to Command,
          ~Philip White


          >
          > Greetings, all. Happy Easter.
          >
          > A) What Towne Meeting?
          >
          > B) Was there no site fee charged for the Carnivale? I
          > was under the impression since the meeting at Stone
          > Dog Inn, that the 'next' Towne Meeting would be held
          > at a venue that would not require a site fee.
          >
          > C) When was it announced that there would be a Towne
          > Meeting at the Ayreton Carnivale? I don't recall
          > having seen any posting to that effect, or an
          > announcement on our group's list (TGS). How were
          > people expected to know to attend the event, even if
          > only to attend the Towne Hall Meeting?
          >
          > D) Finally, I'm glad you had a good time, Master
          > Phillip, but I'm presuming there will be meeting
          > minutes from the Towne Cryer to follow along with some
          > official answers to these questions?
          >
          > -- Lord Grimkirk
        • Victor Townsend
          Greetings All. I am saddened that, once again, my employer has seen fit to require my missing this event. Having come recently to this shell barony debate, I
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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            Greetings All.
             
            I am saddened that, once again, my employer has seen fit to require my missing this event.
             
            Having come recently to this "shell barony" debate, I subscribed to this list to try and keep current on the latest information. 
             
            Thank you for posting the minutes here.  I look forward to reviewing them.
             
            Dagan.

          • John Adams
            Master Phillip, Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the least confused. Your presentation of the weekend s events seemed fairly replete
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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              Master Phillip,

              Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
              least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
              events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
              surprised that you thought that someone on this list
              didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
              Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
              attend fighting events when they know fighting is
              taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
              announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
              all the citizens of a community expected to know they
              should attend an event where business meetings are
              being convened unless such information is made public?
              And since you seem confused about my questions,
              permit me to explain.

              I asked about gate fees because I was under the
              well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
              meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
              business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
              Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
              of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
              business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.

              I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
              year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
              last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
              weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
              find it presented only stale information about last
              year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
              can confirm that?)

              Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
              were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
              website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
              full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
              the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
              expectation does exist for business meetings at events
              being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
              reasonable expectation for members to have to check
              the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
              expects members to look for regular local business on
              an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
              been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
              relevant venue that I am aware of.

              Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
              community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
              to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
              Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
              somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
              Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
              business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
              which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
              being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
              in which case, why was it not announced?

              Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or the
              appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
              participants and its staff. But just because a group
              lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
              justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
              and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
              autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
              to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
              only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
              hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.

              'Introducing the volunteers' for the
              incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
              than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
              were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
              Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
              to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
              expect them to be there, if information about this
              meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
              business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
              were there), a full week before the event and nothing
              was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
              anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
              anything related to baronial business was to be held
              at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
              the locals), anywhere?

              Given that official information was dispensed
              indicates that official business was conducted. And
              the previously announced schedule for presenting
              candidates for those offices to the populace has not
              taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
              business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
              unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
              that some who might have attended had they known were
              left out of the process, regardless of whether any
              decisions about anything were made this weekend or
              not.

              Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
              perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
              for which offices, and who of those people were there
              to speak on their own behalf?


              In Service,
              (since A.S. VII)

              -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor



              --- Craig <philipwhite@...> wrote:

              > Lord Grimkirk, and others who have similar questions
              > –
              >
              > Perhaps I can address your questions, as my post
              > appears to have confused you.
              >
              > Did you make the last Ayreton Carnivale? We met much
              > in the same way as we did last year.
              >
              > You see, as our groups have no formal
              > representatives of the Crown, the Lord Mayor gathers
              > us together to thank everyone for their
              > contributions of the day.
              >
              > He gives recognition to the people who have
              > demonstrated their prowess on the field – those
              > winners of the different tourneys. The regional A&S
              > representative also called forward the different
              > artisans to receive their recognition for entering
              > the Regional A&S Fair.
              >
              > Yes, there was a site fee. I believe you know this
              > because it was posted on the event website. I think
              > you are referring to the next time we meet to
              > discuss the issues surrounding the possible
              > formation of a Barony. Our purpose in meeting
              > yesterday was not for that purposes. No decisions
              > were made; no one has been left out.
              >
              > The Mayor did bring up a few ideas for the possible
              > Barony. But I don't think this should surprise you.
              > It was posted on the webpage that people would be
              > designing possible badges. Names were also proposed.
              > He shared that with us. And as we were gathered
              > together, those who have volunteered to hold a
              > proto-incipient-Baronial position were introduced.
              > We were told that all that information will be
              > online, and we were reminded that more submissions
              > for devise and name can be made, and that more
              > people can volunteer for positions.
              >
              > Again, please keep in mind all of this may mean
              > nothing depending on how our polling turns out.
              >
              > Also, in my experience, people are not expected to
              > attend an event. Our organization is voluntary so it
              > is the choice of the individual to come.
              >
              > And as usual, I expect the Cryer will post minutes.
              > No need for you to presume. Our Cryer did make that
              > commitment previously on this list. But, of course,
              > I would ask us to be reasonable and allow her
              > some time to post them.
              >
              > My apologies for any confusion I have caused you.
              >
              > Your Servant to Command,
              > ~Philip White




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            • JC Ravage
              Since we can t get everyone together at the same time (for reasons you outline extensively here), surely it makes sense to have a series of meetings in the
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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                Since we can't get everyone together at the same time (for reasons you
                outline extensively here), surely it makes sense to have a series of
                meetings in the hope of catching up to everyone. That's what's being
                done--at every event, there are meetings, and since no official
                business was conducted at this one, and it precluded no other meeting
                at which official business might be conducted, I see no harm in there
                having been such a meeting.

                You often complain on this list about things not being done. It's
                quite ironic that you're now complaining that there are -more-
                meetings than you'd like.

                On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:44 PM, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                >
                > [many paragraphs]
              • John Adams
                Good Lord William, I fear you have mistaken my intent. As you have noted (now, and previously), I do often remark upon the irregularities of the ongoing
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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                  Good Lord William,
                   
                  I fear you have mistaken my intent. As you have noted (now, and previously), I do often remark upon the irregularities of the ongoing process when there is something to remark upon, and it is my hope to help fix those irregularities. That is why I'm attempting to participate in the process (I wasn't told it was by invitation only). I'm sorry you choose to view that as 'complaining' or somehow ironic given that none of my views or observations have ever been at odds with any view of mine. But, if the 'meeting that wasn't really a meeting' went as was described, then yes, there was business, and it was clearly barony related.
                   
                  And the issue of holding business at events where a gate fee is required to attend remains. Does viewing my commentary as complaining mean you are in favor of paying to participate in local matters? I'm afraid I haven't heard you comment on it either way.
                   
                  If the intent is to have many meetings to catch up to everyone (as you propose), then it stands to reason that advertising them would be most effective way to accomplish that, would it not? Just waiting for people to wander into an event means this process will take forever, a pitfall you yourself observed back in January.
                   
                  -- Grimkirk

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: JC Ravage <ravagio@...>
                  To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:51:25 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                  Since we can't get everyone together at the same time (for reasons you
                  outline extensively here), surely it makes sense to have a series of
                  meetings in the hope of catching up to everyone. That's what's being
                  done--at every event, there are meetings, and since no official
                  business was conducted at this one, and it precluded no other meeting
                  at which official business might be conducted, I see no harm in there
                  having been such a meeting.

                  You often complain on this list about things not being done. It's
                  quite ironic that you're now complaining that there are -more-
                  meetings than you'd like.

                  On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:44 PM, John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  >
                  > [many paragraphs]




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                • mandy lemke
                  i wish to say thank you to all of ayreton for coming together and showing the support of the many folks here in our area. I heard there was quite a turn out
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 23, 2008
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                    i wish to say thank you to all of ayreton for coming together and showing the support of the many folks here in our area. I heard there was quite a turn out for the a&s stuff, and i also heard the auction though, not big, went well as well. I just wish to say thanks to all. I spent most of my day in the kitchen however, so I was not able to see all that went on, but I am glad that we are able to get together and have fun. I'm also pleased to see that as it is posted we are working together and helping many causes all while having fun. I hope that all enjoyed the event as well, and that next year our carnivale will grow and will continue to be a fun event.
                    just a member of the area hoping for more fun events to continue to grow and prosper.
                    francesca del mar
                    mandy
                  • Christian Fournier
                    ... Hesitant as I am to step into the snarkfest here, this is actually a point that I ve been thinking about lately, and I m eager to share those thoughts...
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                      And the issue of holding business at events where a gate fee is required to attend remains.

                      Hesitant as I am to step into the snarkfest here, this is actually a point that I've been thinking about lately, and I'm eager to share those thoughts...  so, here goes:

                      I would like to suggest, as clearly as I can, that it is a noble and laudable goal that we should discuss business related to the transition process at open events, free to any who wish to come (member and non-member alike).  I'm very pleased to know that the officer election will occur in such a venue.

                      That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that indicates that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open venues, and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and appropriate to do so.  To suggest that no official business may occur at official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges an entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.  

                       Cordially,
                       Christian Fournier
                    • Craig
                      Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) – You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would caution you from this
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                        Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                        You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                        caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                        you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                        conclusions.

                        A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                        to say "it is out."

                        I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                        all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                        please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                        you have.

                        I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                        perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                        in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                        in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                        email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                        Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                        called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                        Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                        Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                        Your Servant to Command,
                        ~Philip White

                        > Master Phillip,
                        >
                        > Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
                        > least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
                        > events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
                        > surprised that you thought that someone on this list
                        > didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
                        > Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
                        > attend fighting events when they know fighting is
                        > taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
                        > announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
                        > all the citizens of a community expected to know they
                        > should attend an event where business meetings are
                        > being convened unless such information is made public?
                        > And since you seem confused about my questions,
                        > permit me to explain.
                        >
                        > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                        > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                        > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                        > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                        > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                        > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                        > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.
                        >
                        > I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
                        > year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
                        > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                        > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                        > find it presented only stale information about last
                        > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                        > can confirm that?)
                        >
                        > Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
                        > were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
                        > website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
                        > full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
                        > the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
                        > expectation does exist for business meetings at events
                        > being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
                        > reasonable expectation for members to have to check
                        > the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
                        > expects members to look for regular local business on
                        > an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
                        > been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
                        > relevant venue that I am aware of.
                        >
                        > Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
                        > community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
                        > to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
                        > Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
                        > somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
                        > Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
                        > business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
                        > which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
                        > being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
                        > in which case, why was it not announced?
                        >
                        > Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or the
                        > appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
                        > participants and its staff. But just because a group
                        > lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
                        > justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
                        > and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
                        > autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
                        > to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
                        > only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
                        > hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.
                        >
                        > 'Introducing the volunteers' for the
                        > incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
                        > than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
                        > were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
                        > Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
                        > to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
                        > expect them to be there, if information about this
                        > meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
                        > business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
                        > were there), a full week before the event and nothing
                        > was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
                        > anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
                        > anything related to baronial business was to be held
                        > at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
                        > the locals), anywhere?
                        >
                        > Given that official information was dispensed
                        > indicates that official business was conducted. And
                        > the previously announced schedule for presenting
                        > candidates for those offices to the populace has not
                        > taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
                        > business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
                        > unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
                        > that some who might have attended had they known were
                        > left out of the process, regardless of whether any
                        > decisions about anything were made this weekend or
                        > not.
                        >
                        > Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
                        > perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
                        > for which offices, and who of those people were there
                        > to speak on their own behalf?
                        >
                        >
                        > In Service,
                        > (since A.S. VII)
                        >
                        > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
                      • David Roland
                        Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience. That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton can
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                          Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience.

                          That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady
                          Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
                          business as has been previously discussed at length. They have been
                          used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
                          meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as a
                          way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
                          official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business are
                          not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list are
                          discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
                          Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as the
                          Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who read
                          this list should already be aware of.

                          Ian the Green


                          > That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that
                          indicates
                          > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
                          venues,
                          > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
                          > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
                          appropriate
                          > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
                          > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges
                          an
                          > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
                          >
                          > Cordially,
                          > Christian Fournier
                          >
                        • John Adams
                          Good morning, all. Hopefully whatever snarkiness some have perceived, it has not been on my part, for that has not been my intent. While it is true that some
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Good morning, all.

                             

                            Hopefully whatever 'snarkiness' some have perceived, it has not been on my part, for that has not been my intent.

                             

                            While it is true that some SCA business is required to be conducted at events, such as court business (e.g. awards, etc), and that some local business is conducted at events, e.g. presentations to the Crown, etc., please do not distort my meaning when I refer to Baronial business.

                             

                            As has been stated several times, by several good people, that this proposed transition to Barony is hardly business-as-usual, and should be an inclusive process, not an exclusive one. I know you, Master Christian, have agreed with that, both in principal and in writing. That having been said, I think my meaning should be plain when I reiterate that local business related to the proposed transition should be conducted in an open forum (meaning not in a forum where there is a pre-requisite for attendance), and convening unannounced meetings exclusively at events does not meet that criterion.

                             

                            As for official SCA business, on the whole, face-to-face business is indeed held 'whenever it is possible and appropriate to do so', and I believe the operative term there is 'appropriate'. In my 35 years in the Society, that tradition is routinely predicated upon the subject at hand, and to generalize that all SCA business is simply conducted at the whims of decision makers would be misleading.

                            -- Grimkirk

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Christian Fournier <cf@...>
                            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:21:47 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                            .
                            And the issue of holding business at events where a gate fee is required to attend remains.

                            Hesitant as I am to step into the snarkfest here, this is actually a point that I've been thinking about lately, and I'm eager to share those thoughts...  so, here goes:

                            I would like to suggest, as clearly as I can, that it is a noble and laudable goal that we should discuss business related to the transition process at open events, free to any who wish to come (member and non-member alike).  I'm very pleased to know that the officer election will occur in such a venue.

                            That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that indicates that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open venues, and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and appropriate to do so.  To suggest that no official business may occur at official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges an entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.  

                             Cordially,
                             Christian Fournier



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                          • John Adams
                            ... Master Phillip, while I most certainly make reference to appearances , I am not quite so certain what assumptions you think I am making. From the very
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              :: sigh :: Please read my posts more closely.

                               

                              Master Phillip, while I most certainly make reference to 'appearances', I am not quite so certain what assumptions you think I am making. From the very beginning of this thread, I have been asking questions. Regrettably, what I have been getting in response (in some cases), have either not been very straightforward responses, or simply displeasure with my conclusions based upon those responses. In any case, I can assure you no conclusions have been inadvertently 'jumped to'. Respectfully, please read my posts more closely.

                               

                              Indeed, e-mail can be a pale replacement for face-to-face communication. However, the SCA wasn't crafted solely for the young and child-less (e.g. 'real life'), and to suggest that people not make decisions on which events to attend based upon what is to transpire there in particular is rather unrealistic. I hope you're not suggesting that only people who attend the events where these ad-hoc meetings are being held are entitled to participate in the process of transition. Or are you?

                               

                              In case you've forgotten, electronic forms of communication have recently been promoted in the strongest of terms as acceptable modes of communication (TGS list, 1.29.08, Subject: Dragon Runes), especially in lieu of more traditional forms such as snail-mailed newsletters. Consequently, I don't feel that conducting this exchange via this list is inappropriate.

                               

                              As for my attendance, I have been to two of the three events held in Chicagoland since the first of this year. I've even had several face-to-face conversations at both. Just ask either the Kingdom Transition Officer, or the Lord Mayor, both to whom I spoke at length. And I have missed but few local business meetings in the last two years, and attended many committee meetings to form the TGS Charter. Therefore, I really don't think my level of participation or attendance is a subject for discussion or oblique criticism.

                               

                              I have not referred to the Towne Hall meeting as 'secret'. Please do not misrepresent my words with pejoratives. I have referred to the Towne Hall meeting as unannounced. That is a fact. My remark about what information was 'out', and subsequent query about it, was in reference to the premature announcement of candidates for the incipient-Barony. Again, please read my posts more closely.

                               

                              Contrary to your inference. I am not without patience, and I am entirely confident that Mistress Gianetta will post the minutes at her earliest convenience. As she can attest, I have not bothered her with any concerns about it. I did make a request of you, however, to which you haven't replied. Perhaps you missed it? I suggest you read my posts more closely.

                               

                              Thus far, the only point on which we appear to agree is that we do our best when working in 'harmony' (since, in truth we need not all be "friends"). But, please, do not confuse friendly, impromptu dialogs with the conduct of official business.

                               

                              And please, read my posts more closely.

                               

                              -- Grimkirk

                               

                               

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Craig <philipwhite@...>
                              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34:22 AM
                              Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                              Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                              You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                              caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                              you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                              conclusions.

                              A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                              to say "it is out."

                              I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                              all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                              please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                              you have.

                              I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                              perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                              in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                              in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                              email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                              Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                              called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                              Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                              Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                              Your Servant to Command,
                              ~Philip White

                              > Master Phillip,
                              >
                              > Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
                              > least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
                              > events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
                              > surprised that you
                              thought that someone on this list
                              > didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
                              > Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
                              > attend fighting events when they know fighting is
                              > taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
                              > announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
                              > all the citizens of a community expected to know they
                              > should attend an event where business meetings are
                              > being convened unless such information is made public?
                              > And since you seem confused about my questions,
                              > permit me to explain.
                              >
                              > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                              > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                              > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                              > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                              > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                              > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend
                              public
                              > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' .
                              >
                              > I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
                              > year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
                              > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                              > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                              > find it presented only stale information about last
                              > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                              > can confirm that?)
                              >
                              > Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
                              > were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
                              > website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
                              > full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
                              > the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
                              > expectation does exist for business meetings at events
                              > being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
                              > reasonable expectation for members to have to
                              check
                              > the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
                              > expects members to look for regular local business on
                              > an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
                              > been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
                              > relevant venue that I am aware of.
                              >
                              > Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
                              > community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
                              > to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
                              > Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
                              > somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
                              > Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
                              > business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
                              > which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
                              > being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
                              > in which case, why was it not announced?
                              >
                              > Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or
                              the
                              > appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
                              > participants and its staff. But just because a group
                              > lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
                              > justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
                              > and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
                              > autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
                              > to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
                              > only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
                              > hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.
                              >
                              > 'Introducing the volunteers' for the
                              > incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
                              > than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
                              > were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
                              > Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
                              > to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
                              > expect them to be there, if information about this
                              >
                              meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
                              > business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
                              > were there), a full week before the event and nothing
                              > was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
                              > anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
                              > anything related to baronial business was to be held
                              > at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
                              > the locals), anywhere?
                              >
                              > Given that official information was dispensed
                              > indicates that official business was conducted. And
                              > the previously announced schedule for presenting
                              > candidates for those offices to the populace has not
                              > taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
                              > business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
                              > unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
                              > that some who might have attended had they known were
                              > left out of the process,
                              regardless of whether any
                              > decisions about anything were made this weekend or
                              > not.
                              >
                              > Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
                              > perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
                              > for which offices, and who of those people were there
                              > to speak on their own behalf?
                              >
                              >
                              > In Service,
                              > (since A.S. VII)
                              >
                              > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor



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                            • Kyla
                              Greetings all, Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent, although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections. If there is
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Greetings all,

                                Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
                                although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
                                If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
                                especially and particularly on this list.
                                I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
                                announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
                                That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
                                an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
                                people out of the loop.

                                If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
                                then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
                                disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

                                Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
                                this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
                                makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
                                In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
                                kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

                                Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
                                as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
                                attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
                                gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
                                all.
                                Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
                                meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
                                of the event?

                                Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
                                That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

                                Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
                                Ravenslake, Midlands,
                                Middle Kingdom

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                                Of Craig
                                Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
                                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting


                                Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                                You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                                caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                                you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                                conclusions.

                                A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                                to say "it is out."

                                I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                                all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                                please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                                you have.

                                I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                                perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                                in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                                in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                                email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                                Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                                called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                                Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                                Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                                Your Servant to Command,
                                ~Philip White

                                > Master Phillip,
                                >
                                > Thank you for your concern, however, I do not feel the
                                > least confused. Your presentation of the weekend's
                                > events seemed fairly replete (although I was really
                                > surprised that you thought that someone on this list
                                > didn't know that event attendance is voluntary).
                                > Surely we all know that fighters are inclined to
                                > attend fighting events when they know fighting is
                                > taking place, as do artisans when artsy functions are
                                > announced. That being the norm, I'll ask: how then are
                                > all the citizens of a community expected to know they
                                > should attend an event where business meetings are
                                > being convened unless such information is made public?
                                > And since you seem confused about my questions,
                                > permit me to explain.
                                >
                                > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.
                                >
                                > I'm fairly certain you're aware I did not attend last
                                > year's Carnival, but perhaps not. Nevertheless, when I
                                > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                                > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                                > find it presented only stale information about last
                                > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                                > can confirm that?)
                                >
                                > Visiting that website this evening, I note that there
                                > were still no reference to a Towne Hall meeting on the
                                > website, having not been updated since March 10th, a
                                > full two weeks prior to the event. Perhaps nobody told
                                > the webmaster about the meeting? Regardless, since the
                                > expectation does exist for business meetings at events
                                > being announced on the Ayreton list, there was no
                                > reasonable expectation for members to have to check
                                > the event webpage for it anyway. Certainly, nobody
                                > expects members to look for regular local business on
                                > an event page. And since Stone Dog Inn, no meeting had
                                > been announced for the Carnival in any publicly
                                > relevant venue that I am aware of.
                                >
                                > Towne Meetings are for business of the citizens of a
                                > community, like 'Ayreton'. Since it is not reasonable
                                > to presume that the entirety of the attendants at the
                                > Carnival were exclusively Ayreton residents, it seems
                                > somewhat irregular to convene an impromptu Towne
                                > Meeting at an event, let alone to conduct any Towne
                                > business at it. Either it wasn't a Towne Meeting, in
                                > which case, why was business of the incipient-Barony
                                > being discussed?; or it was (as this thread states),
                                > in which case, why was it not announced?
                                >
                                > Certainly it is fitting that the autocrat or the
                                > appropriate representative extend thanks to an events
                                > participants and its staff. But just because a group
                                > lacks a formal representative of the Crown hardly
                                > justifies holding a business meeting to present thanks
                                > and recognition to the participants of an event. I've
                                > autocratted many events and I've never felt the need
                                > to convene a 'business meeting' to do so. And being
                                > only the 2nd Carnival, what transpired last year could
                                > hardly be considered 'precedent setting'.
                                >
                                > 'Introducing the volunteers' for the
                                > incipient-Baronial offices seems to be nothing less
                                > than 'Baronial business'. And last I heard, candidates
                                > were to be announced on April 2nd, not at the
                                > Carnival. To that point, were all the candidates there
                                > to introduce themselves? How could anyone necessarily
                                > expect them to be there, if information about this
                                > meeting were not made known? For example, TGS's
                                > business meeting was just last weekend (we were both
                                > were there), a full week before the event and nothing
                                > was mentioned about it there. By anyone. So why would
                                > anyone presume for a moment that another meeting where
                                > anything related to baronial business was to be held
                                > at the Carnival when nobody ever mentioned it (even to
                                > the locals), anywhere?
                                >
                                > Given that official information was dispensed
                                > indicates that official business was conducted. And
                                > the previously announced schedule for presenting
                                > candidates for those offices to the populace has not
                                > taken place as advertised. Since it appears that
                                > business of the incipient-Barony was conducted at an
                                > unannounced place and time, it is reasonable to assume
                                > that some who might have attended had they known were
                                > left out of the process, regardless of whether any
                                > decisions about anything were made this weekend or
                                > not.
                                >
                                > Still, since you *were* there and it's already 'out',
                                > perhaps you could share with us who was announced, and
                                > for which offices, and who of those people were there
                                > to speak on their own behalf?
                                >
                                >
                                > In Service,
                                > (since A.S. VII)
                                >
                                > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor


                                ------------------------------------

                                ~~~~~

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                              • John Adams
                                Greetings. I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are not business meetings , especially in the context of matters related to the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Greetings.
                                   
                                  I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are not 'business meetings', especially in the context of matters related to the incipient-Barony. Since the petition for transition, they have been used as such, and have been acknowledged by the committee as the forum in which business for the incipient-Barony would be conducted, at least until a more formal structure is arranged. At the very least, they are certainly no less an official function of the incipient-Barony, than the impending selection of officers for this unofficial Barony, that coming upon the advice of the Kingdom Transition Officer.
                                   
                                  I will acknowledge that 'spin' is quite period, and requires a skilled, master hand; but I believe that it is the most unworthy feature of this endeavor.
                                   
                                  -- Grimkirk
                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                  To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46:26 AM
                                  Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                  Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my experience.

                                  That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the Lord/Lady
                                  Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
                                  business as has been previously discussed at length. They have been
                                  used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
                                  meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as a
                                  way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
                                  official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business are
                                  not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list are
                                  discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
                                  Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as the
                                  Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who read
                                  this list should already be aware of.

                                  Ian the Green

                                  > That said, there is no requirement
                                  of which I am aware that
                                  indicates
                                  > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
                                  venues,
                                  > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
                                  > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
                                  appropriate
                                  > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
                                  > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event charges
                                  an
                                  > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
                                  >
                                  > Cordially,
                                  > Christian Fournier
                                  >




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                                • John Adams
                                  M lady Tabitha, I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    M'lady Tabitha,
                                     
                                    I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you agree with me.
                                     
                                    I am a plain spoken gentle, and my style is intent on one purpose: to make clear that which I see through the lens of many many years of Societal perspective. In truth, those who know me best know I seldom ask questions I don't already know the answer to. However, asking those questions 'in public' permits those with the answers to be forthcoming (or otherwise), and allows everyone paying attention to see/hear (and then think) for themselves. Someting about horses and water comes to mind.
                                     
                                    Nevertheless, I appreciate that you share some of my viewpoints, and your gracious reply.
                                    -- Grimkirk
                                        "Perspective is a burden only to those who have it."
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Kyla <skycat@...>
                                    To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:11:11 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                    Greetings all,

                                    Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
                                    although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
                                    If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
                                    especially and particularly on this list.
                                    I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
                                    announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
                                    That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
                                    an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
                                    people out of the loop.

                                    If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
                                    then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
                                    disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

                                    Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
                                    this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
                                    makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
                                    In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
                                    kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

                                    Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
                                    as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
                                    attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
                                    gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
                                    all.
                                    Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
                                    meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
                                    of the event?

                                    Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
                                    That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

                                    Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
                                    Ravenslake, Midlands,
                                    Middle Kingdom

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                                    Of Craig
                                    Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
                                    To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                                    Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                    Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                                    You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                                    caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                                    you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                                    conclusions.

                                    A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                                    to say "it is out."

                                    I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                                    all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                                    please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                                    you have.

                                    I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                                    perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                                    in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                                    in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                                    email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                                    Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                                    called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                                    Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                                    Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                                    Your Servant to Command,
                                    ~Philip White



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                                  • Sarafina Sinclair
                                    Good Morning Friends, I am working on updating the Ayreton webpage that I started a few years ago to include the information on the baronial transition. I will
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                      Good Morning Friends,
                                      I am working on updating the Ayreton webpage that I started a few years ago to include the information on the baronial transition. I will include all newsletters and minutes. These are also available in the archives on the yahoo group, I believe.
                                       
                                      I will post all announcements of future meetings and anything else that comes up. I am kindly requesting that all candidates for baronial officers send me a short bio and statement about why you want to be elected from whichever position you are running for for the benefit of the populace. Also, if you will include a picture I will post it as well so that the folks can recognize each of the persons running. I will also include a link to your email (with permission) for those folks in the area to contact you directly. You can send all that to me at sarafina.sinclair@....
                                       
                                      My hope is to further reduce any misunderstandings or lack of communication and provide a static repository for information.
                                       
                                      The webpage can be found at http://ayreton.home.att.net. It is quite basic, but I will do my best to keep it up to date.
                                       
                                      As we continue down the path to barony, I urge everyone to continue to discuss the topics and speak up with your concerns. However, please remember that email is easy to misinterpret. Do not infer malice and think the best of each other.
                                       
                                      In Service,
                                       
                                      Sarafina

                                      --
                                      Mistress Sarafina Sinclair, OL
                                      http://ladysarafina.home.att.net
                                    • David Roland
                                      I will agree that spin is a most unworthy endevour and so I do not do so. Indeed every meeting I attended/was a part of very directly stated that official
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                        I will agree that "spin" is a most unworthy endevour and so I do not
                                        do so. Indeed every meeting I attended/was a part of very directly
                                        stated that official business regarding the Barony issue, voting of
                                        interest etc. could only be done at local groups meetings. That the
                                        Ayreton Towne meetings were a place where announcements regarding
                                        results and any "progress" one way or the other could and would be
                                        made. Often discussion about what those results and "progess" one
                                        way or the other, meant did occur. The decisions were being made
                                        within the local groups, presumably (though I have little direct
                                        knowledge except for the shire I am a part of), at their business
                                        meetings, which you did participate in by your own admission. As
                                        the Ayreton Towne meetings merely made announcements of results
                                        and "progress" one way or the other, they can hardly be called
                                        official business meetings. Important? Some, including myself,
                                        would certainly say they are/were important.

                                        Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                                        Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                                        citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                                        questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                                        given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                                        memories.

                                        Ian

                                        --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Greetings.
                                        >
                                        > I take exception to the observation that Towne Hall meetings are
                                        not 'business meetings', especially in the context of matters
                                        related to the incipient-Barony. Since the petition for transition,
                                        they have been used as such, and have been acknowledged by the
                                        committee as the forum in which business for the incipient-Barony
                                        would be conducted, at least until a more formal structure is
                                        arranged. At the very least, they are certainly no less an official
                                        function of the incipient-Barony, than the impending selection of
                                        officers for this unofficial Barony, that coming upon the advice of
                                        the Kingdom Transition Officer.
                                        >
                                        > I will acknowledge that 'spin' is quite period, and requires a
                                        skilled, master hand; but I believe that it is the most unworthy
                                        feature of this endeavor.
                                        >
                                        > -- Grimkirk
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                        > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:46:26 AM
                                        > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                                        >
                                        > Indeed there are often official meetings at events in my
                                        experience.
                                        >
                                        > That said a Towne Meeting is not a business meeting as the
                                        Lord/Lady
                                        > Mayor of Ayreton can not and does not conduct any official SCA
                                        > business as has been previously discussed at length. They have
                                        been
                                        > used in the past, (I must say that this is the very first towne
                                        > meeting I have not been to so I can not speak directly to it,) as
                                        a
                                        > way to give out information, sometimes that information is about
                                        > official actions occuring, but decisions of official SCA business
                                        are
                                        > not made there. Unofficial things, such as this discussion list
                                        are
                                        > discussed there. The Ayreton Carnival event is discussed there.
                                        > Again, they are not, nor have they ever been, business meetings as
                                        the
                                        > Lord/Lady Mayor of Ayreton is not an official entity as all who
                                        read
                                        > this list should already be aware of.
                                        >
                                        > Ian the Green
                                        >
                                        > > That said, there is no requirement of which I am aware that
                                        > indicates
                                        > > that official SCA business MUST be held in such free and open
                                        > venues,
                                        > > and in fact the tradition of the Society is that face-to-face
                                        > > business tends to be handled whenever it is possible and
                                        > appropriate
                                        > > to do so. To suggest that no official business may occur at
                                        > > official, publicized SCA events, simply because the event
                                        charges
                                        > an
                                        > > entrance fee, seems to me to be unsupportable.
                                        > >
                                        > > Cordially,
                                        > > Christian Fournier
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        _____________________________________________________________________
                                        _______________
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                                      • Kyla
                                        To be fair, Lord Grimkirk, I find it equally unfortunate that you must (justifiably) raise these questions at all. I find it hardly believable that no one
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                          To be fair, Lord Grimkirk, I find it equally unfortunate that you must (justifiably) raise these questions at all.
                                          I find it hardly believable that no one thought about having this meeting until they were at the event.
                                          Of course it is a time when a large number of the people involved will be in one place; it's an event!
                                          I chalk it up to poor planning.
                                           
                                          I feel that I must point out to the event planners that their poor planning adversely effected my participation in the Ayreton Carnivale.
                                           
                                          Lord Grimkirk, I accept your apology, and I appreciate your graciousness in offering it.
                                          As noted previously, if at all possible, someone WILL misunderstand anything said.  *sigh*
                                           
                                          Tabitha Pennywarden
                                          Ravenslake, Midlands,
                                          Middle Kingdom
                                           
                                          Who frequently bites her tongue, rather than be misunderstood.
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John Adams
                                          Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:32 AM
                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                          M'lady Tabitha,
                                           
                                          I apologise if you have found my style of communicating to be insulting, and equally regrettable that you find it somehow unfortunate that you agree with me.
                                           
                                          I am a plain spoken gentle, and my style is intent on one purpose: to make clear that which I see through the lens of many many years of Societal perspective. In truth, those who know me best know I seldom ask questions I don't already know the answer to. However, asking those questions 'in public' permits those with the answers to be forthcoming (or otherwise), and allows everyone paying attention to see/hear (and then think) for themselves. Someting about horses and water comes to mind.
                                           
                                          Nevertheless, I appreciate that you share some of my viewpoints, and your gracious reply.
                                          -- Grimkirk
                                              "Perspective is a burden only to those who have it."
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: Kyla <skycat@...>
                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:11:11 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                          Greetings all,

                                          Unfortunately, I feel that I must agree with Grimkirk to some extent,
                                          although not to his insulting way of phrasing his objections.
                                          If there is going to be a town meeting, then it should be broadcast,
                                          especially and particularly on this list.
                                          I was present at said meeting, and as far as I know, the only time it was
                                          announced was at the Ayreton Carnivale event.
                                          That is unkind to the general populace, and unwise; as you have seen, such
                                          an oversight can and will be misconstrued as a desire to leave certain
                                          people out of the loop.

                                          If announcements have a set time to be made, to which people have agreed,
                                          then that timetable should be kept, otherwise, those making the decisions to
                                          disclose the information will appear unable to keep their word.

                                          Information regarding the Ayreton barony question was in fact disclosed at
                                          this meeting, and the fact that the meeting was not publicized in advance
                                          makes that disclosure inappropriate, in my opinion.
                                          In addition, if as Grimkirk states, there was a timetable which was not
                                          kept, then that disclosure was even more inappropriate.

                                          Whether or not people had to pay to get in seems irrelevant to me, in so far
                                          as if someone who had not wanted to attend the event but had wanted to
                                          attend the meeting had shown up at 5 PM, I'm fairly sure they could have
                                          gotten in without paying the fee - we are mostly reasonable people, after
                                          all.
                                          Perhaps some provision could be made in advance, for subsequent Town
                                          meetings, to allow people to attend the meeting without attending the rest
                                          of the event?

                                          Please, if you say what you are going to do - stick to what you said.
                                          That's one of the primary principals of chivalry.

                                          Tabitha Pennywarden (Kyla Mead)
                                          Ravenslake, Midlands,
                                          Middle Kingdom

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com [mailto:Ayreton@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf
                                          Of Craig
                                          Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:34 AM
                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                                          Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                          Greetings Lord Grimkirk (And again others with similar questions) –

                                          You refer to appearances and you make many assumptions. I would
                                          caution you from this line of thinking. As you have in the past, if
                                          you have questions please just ask. But try not to jump to
                                          conclusions.

                                          A Towne Meeting was called, that is not a secret, so you do not have
                                          to say "it is out."

                                          I would ask again for you to have patience. Our Cryer will work with
                                          all due speed to get a report of the whole days events out, but
                                          please be reasonable. Perhaps that will answer many other questions
                                          you have.

                                          I might also suggest, as you are interested in the process and
                                          perhaps in the group as a whole, that you consider coming to events
                                          in the area, regardless of announced meetings or no meeting. Talking
                                          in person is a much better way for us all to communicate, as you see
                                          email correspondence can so readily fail to help.

                                          Our best business is conducted when we meet as friends, not when
                                          called to order. I could even say that I was involved in Towne
                                          Meetings in my car on the way home from the event, last week at the
                                          Pippins and the Baron's Noyse, and probably later tonight again.

                                          Your Servant to Command,
                                          ~Philip White



                                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                        • John Adams
                                          Where: [Ayreton] Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer When: 2/17/08 1:05pm Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be on the docket at Stone Dog Inn
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                            Where: [Ayreton]
                                            Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                            When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                            Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                            -- Grimkirk

                                             
                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:48:18 AM
                                            Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                            .

                                            <snipped for brevity>


                                            Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                                            Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                                            citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                                            questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                                            given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                                            memories.

                                            Ian




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                                          • kateslists@comcast.net
                                            ... From: John Adams Nevertheless, when I ... http://tilted-windmill.com/carnival/ This is the event website linked off the kingdoms
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                              -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                              From: John Adams <auldefarte@...>
                                              "Nevertheless, when I
                                              > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                                              > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                                              > find it presented only stale information about last
                                              > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                                              > can confirm that?)

                                              http://tilted-windmill.com/carnival/

                                              This is the event website linked off the kingdoms calendar of events. It all looks like this years info to me.


                                              > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                              > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                              > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                              > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                              > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                              > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                              > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'.
                                              >

                                              I'm confused about why "Pay-to-Play" would matter. The SCA IS pay to play in many ways. We pay site fees to get into events. We pay membership fees if we want to hold office or fight. When the kingdom officially conducts baranial polling it will be based off the membership rolls. (I vaguely recall someone saying you could also vote by showing up in person ... )

                                              IMHO, It was the "Areyton Carnival." Not one groups event - a combined event. Complaining that
                                              Areyton business -whether pre-announced or not - occured at the Areyton even is disingenious at best.

                                              Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the area even matter to you?
                                              .
                                              Bojei
                                            • David Roland
                                              Please correct me if I am wrong Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2175 that: I asked about gate fees
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                                Please correct me if I am wrong

                                                Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2175
                                                that:

                                                "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                                well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                                meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                                business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                                Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                                of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                                business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play'."

                                                In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                                                respone:

                                                "> Where: [Ayreton]
                                                > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                >
                                                > -- Grimkirk?

                                                Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.

                                                Link:

                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2021

                                                Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process that
                                                I believe is relavent:

                                                "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                                                to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                                                information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                                                populace meeting, independent of an event."

                                                If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above" came
                                                from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                                                __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                                                that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of an
                                                event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                                at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                                on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                                                group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                                                same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.

                                                As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                                                please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                                                needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or otherwise)
                                                does not occur.

                                                Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                                                such.

                                                Ian the Green


                                                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Where: [Ayreton]
                                                > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                >
                                                > -- Grimkirk
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                                > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                                > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:48:18 AM
                                                > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                                                >
                                                > .
                                                > <snipped for brevity>
                                                >
                                                > Please cite your source of reliable information that the next
                                                > Ayreton Towne Meeting was to be at a free venue. Without such
                                                > citation it can neither be confirmed, which would be good for your
                                                > questions, or denied. I personally recall no such assurances being
                                                > given and await your source citation to refresh my and others
                                                > memories.
                                                >
                                                > Ian
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                _____________________________________________________________________
                                                _______________
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                                              • John Adams
                                                I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would have this year s info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                                  I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current (but still didn't mention the meeting).
                                                   
                                                  Why does it border on pay to play? Because the privilege of attending local business meetings is one of the things specifically NOT predicated upon membership.
                                                   
                                                  Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.
                                                   
                                                  And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be 'Kingdomers', instead.
                                                   
                                                  -- Grimkirk
                                                      SCA #158733

                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: "kateslists@..." <kateslists@...>
                                                  To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:14:12 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                                  ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                                                  From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                                                  "Nevertheless, when I
                                                  > last visited the Carnival website (only a few short
                                                  > weeks ago, since Stone Dog Inn), I was surprised to
                                                  > find it presented only stale information about last
                                                  > year's event, hardly useful or timely (Perhaps others
                                                  > can confirm that?)

                                                  http://tilted- windmill. com/carnival/

                                                  This is the event website linked off the kingdoms calendar of events. It all looks like this years info to me.

                                                  > I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                                  > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                                  > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                                  > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                                  > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                                  > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                                  > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' .
                                                  >

                                                  I'm confused about why "Pay-to-Play" would matter. The SCA IS pay to play in many ways. We pay site fees to get into events. We pay membership fees if we want to hold office or fight. When the kingdom officially conducts baranial polling it will be based off the membership rolls. (I vaguely recall someone saying you could also vote by showing up in person ... )

                                                  IMHO, It was the "Areyton Carnival." Not one groups event - a combined event. Complaining that
                                                  Areyton business -whether pre-announced or not - occured at the Areyton even is disingenious at best.

                                                  Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the area even matter to you?
                                                  .
                                                  Bojei


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                                                • John Adams
                                                  Cheerfully. A) The missive we ve quoted from the Towne Cryer indicates the intent to hold a non-event-based meeting. This is a fact that you have corroborated
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Cheerfully.
                                                     
                                                    A) The missive we've quoted from the Towne Cryer indicates the intent to hold a non-event-based meeting. This is a fact that you have corroborated through your own research, your interpretation of it not withstanding. Thank you.
                                                     
                                                    B) IIRC, which I have no written proof of, statements of a similar nature were made at the meeting at SDI as well. Clearly my memory has no credibility with you, but it doesn't need it.
                                                     
                                                    C) You are correct that no announcement of any such meeting has been made upon the list since that date, thus negating any real expectation of one. This doesn't change the fact that the expectation has already been set previously, that it remains an expectation, and that the meeting held at the AC wasn't announced in advance.
                                                     
                                                    I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. Sadly, I suspect that is at the heart of some people's present dramatic consternation with me. If you concur with these observations, you may consider yourself corrected. Else, may we simply agree to disagree, with our mileages varying wildly.
                                                     
                                                    -- Grimkirk

                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                                    To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:34:43 AM
                                                    Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                                    Please correct me if I am wrong

                                                    Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2175
                                                    that:

                                                    "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                                    well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                                    meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                                    business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                                    Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                                    of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                                    business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' ."

                                                    In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                                                    respone:

                                                    "> Where: [Ayreton]
                                                    > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                    > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                    > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                    on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                    was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                    Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                    based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                    >
                                                    > -- Grimkirk?

                                                    Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.

                                                    Link:

                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2021

                                                    Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process that
                                                    I believe is relavent:

                                                    "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                                                    to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                                                    information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                                                    populace meeting, independent of an event."

                                                    If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above" came
                                                    from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                                                    __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                                                    that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of an
                                                    event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                                    at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                                    on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                                                    group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                                                    same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.

                                                    As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                                                    please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                                                    needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or otherwise)
                                                    does not occur.

                                                    Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                                                    such.

                                                    Ian the Green

                                                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, John Adams <auldefarte@ ...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Where: [Ayreton]
                                                    > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                    > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                    > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                    on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                    was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                    Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                    based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                    >
                                                    > -- Grimkirk




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                                                  • kateslists@comcast.net
                                                    ... From: John Adams ... So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                                      From: John Adams <auldefarte@...>
                                                      > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                                      > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                                      > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                                      > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                                      So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                                      > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                                      > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                                      > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                                      > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                                      > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                                      The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)


                                                      > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                                      > anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                                      > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                                      > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                                      > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                                      > 'Kingdomers', instead.

                                                      Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                                      I said
                                                      > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                                      > area even matter to you?

                                                      So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                                      Bojei
                                                    • John Adams
                                                      Sure, Bojei. I m guessing here, but maybe it s because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they d feel like
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Sure, Bojei. I'm guessing here, but maybe it's because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they'd feel like participating in (maybe, for a change). It's not like you haven't known a 'kingdomer' or two in your day, nor why they've chosen to be one. Maybe it's because they feel this transition isn't in the best interest of the community, regardless of whether they 'play' (locally, or elsewhere). And besides, maybe they just feel for the $40+ they're out gives them some sense that they're entitled to a say. Slice it anyway you like, but in any case, it's not unreasonable.
                                                         
                                                        Re: Website. My point was that as recently as a few weeks ago (since SDI), the site didn't have current information. Another point was about exactly how late in the game are people expect to wait for current info to be posted, in order to make plans to attend?
                                                        I don't think the Baronial heraldry activity, which was announced, constituted 'baronial business'. I understood it to be a function for those who wanted to have materials available to work a submission, something I frankly thought was a fabulous idea. Frankly, I'd like to see a Herald's point like that at more events, if only for those who don't yet have any personal heraldry submitted.
                                                         
                                                        YIS,
                                                         
                                                        -- Grimkirk
                                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                                        From: "kateslists@..." <kateslists@...>
                                                        To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:06:35 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                                        ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                                                        From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                                                        > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                                        > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                                        > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                                        > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                                        So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                                        > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                                        > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                                        > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                                        > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                                        > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                                        The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)

                                                        > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                                        > anyone else, if they've paid
                                                        for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                                        > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                                        > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                                        > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                                        > 'Kingdomers' , instead.

                                                        Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                                        I said
                                                        > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                                        > area even matter to you?

                                                        So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                                        Bojei


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                                                      • Peg Cook
                                                        Not to be super-picky, cuz lord knows I miss stuff myself, but on March 18th I received this posting to the Ayreton list--not to mention Village Green (and I
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                                        • 0 Attachment

                                                          Not to be super-picky, cuz lord knows I miss stuff myself, but on March 18th I received this posting to the Ayreton list--not to mention Village Green (and I think it got crossposted all over the place):

                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2157

                                                          Greetings unto the Populace of Ayreton from the Town Cryer!
                                                           
                                                          REMINDERS:
                                                           
                                                          ***Elections for Officers for the Proto-Incipient Barony are coming soon!  If you would like to nominate yourself for any office, please send your name, the office you want, your home group, email, and a short (25 words) description of who you are to me, the Towne Cryer BY MARCH 31.  Remember that you must be a paid member to apply. 
                                                           
                                                          On April 2 the candidates will be announced for all offices.  Elections to be held on April 26th, voting from 1 - 2 pm, at the Congregational Church of Jefferson Park, 5320 West Giddings, 60630. Paid members may vote via proxy by email/snail mail/etc BY APRIL 25th, to any of the participating seneschals, if you cannot make the meeting.   Look for more information on the election process coming soon.
                                                           
                                                          **** There will be a brief Ayreton newsletter available at the Gatekeeper at Carnival this weekend!
                                                           
                                                          ****The Ayreton Device Competition will be held during Carnival.  Supplies will be available at the DizzyWulf merchant booth for anyone who wants to work on devices during the day.
                                                           
                                                          ****If you are pro-Barony and have not yet signed a Baronial Advancement petition, the petition for your local group will be available at Carnival -- please sign right away.  If you are opposed, you need to do nothing (abstain = no).
                                                           
                                                          Thanks everyone, and I look forward to seeing you on Saturday!


                                                          Re-reading this, it seems like it could maybe have been spelled out a little more clearly that the "device competition" in question was for the PIB (as well as the procedures for said competition), but it seemed fairly obvious to me.  The newsletters were available all day, and I fail to see how an out-loud reading of such constitutes some kind of official business. Even the list of candidates was read as a partial, incomplete list of those who have so far thrown their hat into the ring. I was actually surprised by the disclosure that there hadn't been a preplanned Towne meeting at the Carnival--thinking back, I just "knew", in the way one knows these things, that there was going to be one. It may be that I read more into the quoted posting than was there--it's been known to happen.

                                                          The words "we're making this up as we go along" were spoken at the meeting on Saturday, and I believe that this has been the case, all in good faith. However, we might be reaching a point, depending on the outcome of the initial petition, where it's no longer a good idea to keep making it up as we go. Of course the process of becoming a barony has its own procedures, etc, which will need to be followed. But there are plenty of other "baronial matters" that the populace of the barony will want to have some say in establishing. Careful thought about how that gets done should, IMO, be part of that process.

                                                          YIS,

                                                          Evzenie

                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: John Adams
                                                          Sent: Mar 24, 2008 1:20 PM
                                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                                          Sure, Bojei. I'm guessing here, but maybe it's because they see this as a chance to participate in making the local group(s) something they'd feel like participating in (maybe, for a change). It's not like you haven't known a 'kingdomer' or two in your day, nor why they've chosen to be one. Maybe it's because they feel this transition isn't in the best interest of the community, regardless of whether they 'play' (locally, or elsewhere). And besides, maybe they just feel for the $40+ they're out gives them some sense that they're entitled to a say. Slice it anyway you like, but in any case, it's not unreasonable.
                                                           
                                                          Re: Website. My point was that as recently as a few weeks ago (since SDI), the site didn't have current information. Another point was about exactly how late in the game are people expect to wait for current info to be posted, in order to make plans to attend?
                                                          I don't think the Baronial heraldry activity, which was announced, constituted 'baronial business'. I understood it to be a function for those who wanted to have materials available to work a submission, something I frankly thought was a fabulous idea. Frankly, I'd like to see a Herald's point like that at more events, if only for those who don't yet have any personal heraldry submitted.
                                                           
                                                          YIS,
                                                           
                                                          -- Grimkirk
                                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                                          From: "kateslists@ comcast.net" <kateslists@comcast. net>
                                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                                                          Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:06:35 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting

                                                          ------------ -- Original message ------------ --------- -
                                                          From: John Adams <auldefarte@yahoo. com>
                                                          > I believe I mentioned that it was updated on 3/10/08. So, yeah, today it would
                                                          > have this year's info. You nabbed the part of my post where I mentioned that it
                                                          > was recently stale, but not the part that acknowledges that it's now current
                                                          > (but still didn't mention the meeting).

                                                          So why did you post that the website had last years info if you were aware that the website did have the current info?

                                                          > Again, I'm sorry if my observations are peceived as complaining. Clearly our
                                                          > mileages vary. I'm not sure why who's event it was is important, but the
                                                          > incipient-Barony is being based, in large part, on the participating groups in
                                                          > Ayreton (save Ravenslake). Events and group business meetings (even the PIB) are
                                                          > distinctly different functions. Hardly a disingenuous observation.

                                                          The point is that it was the AREYTON event. Thinking that stuff having to do with AREYTON is not going to be mentioned at the AREYTON event is silly. Especially since 'draw and submit areyton heraldry' was a preplanned item at the event. (That sounds like Areyton business stuff to me.)

                                                          > And who are you referring to as not playing? Certainly not me, I'm sure. As for
                                                          > anyone else, if they've paid for their membership, then they've paid to have a
                                                          > say, whether they 'play' with your group, or not at all. And I suspect Milpitas
                                                          > will back that one up. I know it's easy to take that approach, but it isn't
                                                          > fair. And in fact, might be part of the reason why some people have chosen to be
                                                          > 'Kingdomers' , instead.

                                                          Sorry, the "you" in the not playing portion was meant as a generic term not a specific "you" "you"

                                                          I said
                                                          > Besides, if you're not playing, why would whether or not a barony forms in the
                                                          > area even matter to you?

                                                          So, let's rephrace that "I'm aware of several people who rarely go to local events, aren't on local groups email lists, and don't go to local group meetings who feel that their opinion should be considered. I don't understand this. I don''t understand why people who are not involved locally care if the local groups reorganize themselves. Can someone please explain it to me?"

                                                          Bojei


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                                                        • David Roland
                                                          Grimkirk, Umm, no, I did not say that no announcment of any such meeting has been made upon the list since that date. Indeed I said the opposite. And so one
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Mar 24, 2008
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Grimkirk,

                                                            Umm, no, I did not say that no announcment of any such meeting has
                                                            been made upon the list since that date. Indeed I said the opposite.

                                                            "And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                                            at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                                            on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the local
                                                            group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list for
                                                            same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance."

                                                            I specifically bring attention to a meeting being announced and on
                                                            the list.

                                                            Evzenzie quoted it and linked the site:

                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/2157

                                                            "> I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. "


                                                            As you say Lord Grimkirk about your carful reading...

                                                            Ian the Green

                                                            > C) You are correct that no announcement of any such meeting has
                                                            been made upon the list since that date, thus negating any real
                                                            expectation of one. This doesn't change the fact that the
                                                            expectation has already been set previously, that it remains an
                                                            expectation, and that the meeting held at the AC wasn't announced in
                                                            advance.
                                                            >
                                                            > I have no problem reading carefully, Ian. Sadly, I suspect that is
                                                            at the heart of some people's present dramatic consternation with
                                                            me. If you concur with these observations, you may consider yourself
                                                            corrected. Else, may we simply agree to disagree, with our mileages
                                                            varying wildly.
                                                            >
                                                            > -- Grimkirk
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                                            > From: David Roland <mystborne@...>
                                                            > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 10:34:43 AM
                                                            > Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Question from Town Meeting
                                                            >
                                                            > Please correct me if I am wrong
                                                            >
                                                            > Grimkirk you stated in message 2175 found at:
                                                            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2175
                                                            > that:
                                                            >
                                                            > "I asked about gate fees because I was under the
                                                            > well-informed notion from the announcement made at the
                                                            > meeting held at the Stone Dog Inn that barony-related
                                                            > business would next be conducted at a Towne Hall
                                                            > Meeting that was not at an event, specifically because
                                                            > of the issue of charging a site fee to attend public
                                                            > business effectively bordering on 'pay-to-play' ."
                                                            >
                                                            > In response to my request for a source citation you gave this
                                                            > respone:
                                                            >
                                                            > "> Where: [Ayreton]
                                                            > > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                            > > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                            > > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                            > on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                            > was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                            > Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                            > based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > -- Grimkirk?
                                                            >
                                                            > Source cited appears to be message 2021 of this list.
                                                            >
                                                            > Link:
                                                            >
                                                            > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ message/2021
                                                            >
                                                            > Portion of message dealing with discussion of baronial process
                                                            that
                                                            > I believe is relavent:
                                                            >
                                                            > "We know there is more to discuss about the baronial process, so ,
                                                            > to discuss the baronial process in detail. Look for more
                                                            > information on this in the near future. We will plan a separate
                                                            > populace meeting, independent of an event."
                                                            >
                                                            > If this is indeed where the "well informed notion quoted above"
                                                            came
                                                            > from, I for one see no such claim, promise or intimation of the
                                                            > __next__ Ayreton Towne Meeting being at a non-event. Simply
                                                            > that ..."we will plan a separate populace meeting, independent of
                                                            an
                                                            > event..." And so one has. In April, in Tree Girt Sea, on a Sunday
                                                            > at a non-event. Promise fulfilled, including announcement of same
                                                            > on public list. I believe this meeting is taking place in the
                                                            local
                                                            > group you play in and it is obvious that you do watch this list
                                                            for
                                                            > same announcements so you are likely well aware of this occurance.
                                                            >
                                                            > As you have requested of another, specifically Master Phillip,
                                                            > please read more carefully so that such misunderstandings and
                                                            > needless drama (or spin as you mentioned, intentional or
                                                            otherwise)
                                                            > does not occur.
                                                            >
                                                            > Again, pray correct me if I am wrong, I am most willing to admit
                                                            > such.
                                                            >
                                                            > Ian the Green
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, John Adams <auldefarte@ ...>
                                                            wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Where: [Ayreton]
                                                            > > Who: Ayreton Towne Cryer
                                                            > > When: 2/17/08 1:05pm
                                                            > > Why: Because Baronial business was ostensibly not supposed to be
                                                            > on the docket at Stone Dog Inn (SDI). The docket at that event was
                                                            > was changed at the last minute, for reasons attributed to the
                                                            > Kingdom Transition Officer. But the expectation for a non-event
                                                            > based meeting was established prior to SDI.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > -- Grimkirk
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
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