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Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

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  • AlexdeSet@aol.com
    Greetings! ???? Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony,
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 2, 2008
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      Greetings!
           Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
           In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
           While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
      Is mise le meas,
      Alexander de Seton,
      Some Guy From Ravenslake


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@...>
      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
      Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

      Ian said>>

      I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
      think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
      their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
      into forming a shell barony together.

      ***

      The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members.

      This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality.

      Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

      I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups.

      Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not.

      I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

      Teleri

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    • Valerie
      Even though I no longer live in the area I must say I for one look forward with excitement to the prospect of the Ayreton Barony and I really look forward with
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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        Even though I no longer live in the area I must say I for one look
        forward with excitement to the prospect of the Ayreton Barony and I
        really look forward with hope that Ravenslake will become one as well.
        Having spoken to a number of folk from Ravenslake before I left the
        area about the barony issue I'd know of their decision to go a
        different path 7 months ago and some of the reason's sited to me at
        the time was in part the distance Ravenslake was from everyone else.
        Some of the other reasons was a desire to form their own barony. This
        led to the discussion of what if there was TWO baronies in the
        area.....Ahh the schitck to be had with border skirmish between the
        groups and friendly rivaleries. It opens up room for even greater
        banter and lets face it it's not like they wont still help out with
        events and the like. Imagine events potentially being hosted by two
        baronies. Quite Impressive really and opens the door for many fun
        interactions between the groups while still giving Chicago it's more
        cohesive feel.

        I look forward to the day when I may attend event in the barony of
        Ayreton.

        Moira O'Dorran
        Formerly of Ayreton.

        --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, AlexdeSet@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        >
        > ???? Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when
        the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a
        Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we
        decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
        >
        > ???? In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are
        baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a
        bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will
        also be a good thing.
        >
        > ???? While I think it is good that others are concerned that
        Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still
        here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a
        slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and
        Barony, or Barony and Barony.
        >
        > Is mise le meas,
        >
        > Alexander de Seton,
        >
        > Some Guy From Ravenslake
        >
        >
      • Teleri
        The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue. My concern is the affect
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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          The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue.  My concern is the affect that has on the logic of forming a shell barony out of the remaining five groups in the local area.

           

          Maybe my perspective is different because I have been happily thinking of myself as a citizen of Ayreton (meaning all 6 groups in the greater Chicago area) for the last several years.  With the efforts spent by so many people to promote the unity between groups, it has been wonderful to be able to participate in the activities and events of all groups, without worrying about what geographic location it is in, or which group it "belongs" to.

           

          I was not especially in favor of the Ayreton entity of all six groups advancing to barony status, but I at least understood the logic of the folks proposing it.  It would have maintained the unity of the area that we had all been working toward.  The newly proposed shell consisting of only part of the greater Chicago area groups has no such obvious logic to it.

           

          During the initial advancement discussions, many argued against individual groups advancing in status because of the barriers to unity that such structures could impose.  The newly proposed area-wide organization will have to deal with these issues of division.  I am now looking at the prospect of ending up quite close to the boundary of the Barony of Five and the Whatever of Ravenslake, which is quite unappealing.  While, of course, no wall will go up, and we won't stop talking to each other, my experience with the Midrealm is that people take Baronial boundaries much more seriously.  During the polling process, I already had people question my right to express an opinion outside my geographic zip code.  While the majority of people in the area did not support that type of exclusion, such attitudes only become stronger under a baronial organization structure.

           

          Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer considered important?  My experience with the advancement process is that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there is little to spare for other matters for a long time.  If we want to maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony and Ravenslake?  Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the purview of just the Shell Barony?  Will we now need a new separate email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five groups without Ravenslake?  How does it make sense to try and form this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion of the entire set of six groups?

           

          Yours in Service,

          Teleri



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

          Greetings!
               Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
               In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
               While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
          Is mise le meas,
          Alexander de Seton,
          Some Guy From Ravenslake


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
          Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

          Ian said>>

          I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
          think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
          their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
          into forming a shell barony together.

          ***

          The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members.

          This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality.

          Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

          I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups.

          Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not.

          I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

          Teleri

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
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        • Christian Fournier
          Thank you, Teleri, for clarifying your feelings. You raise some excellent questions, and I wouldn t want to belittle them by immediately countering them in
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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            Thank you, Teleri, for clarifying your feelings.  You raise some excellent questions, and I wouldn't want to belittle them by immediately "countering" them in turn.  

            Rather, for my part, I'll plan to consider the questions you raise, and see what difference they make in my thoughts about the Baronial issue.  I encourage others to do the same-- give some real thought to the questions below, and let's take them up as we continue discussions at the next Towne Hall.  Some of these questions are interwoven tightly, with each other and with the already open questions of what happens to the Ayreton infrastructure we already have in place.

            Thanks again, Teleri and all,

             Christian

            Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer considered important?  My experience with the advancement process is that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there is little to spare for other matters for a long time.  If we want to maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony and Ravenslake?  Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the purview of just the Shell Barony?  Will we now need a new separate email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five groups without Ravenslake?  How does it make sense to try and form this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion of the entire set of six groups?

             

            Yours in Service,

            Teleri



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent


            Greetings!
                 Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
                 In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
                 While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
            Is mise le meas,
            Alexander de Seton,
            Some Guy From Ravenslake


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
            Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

            Ian said>>

            I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I 
            think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on 
            their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look 
            into forming a shell barony together. 

            ***

            The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members. 

            This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality. 

            Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

            I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups. 

            Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not. 

            I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

            Teleri

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
            http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
            More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!



            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. 

          • Galen of Bristol
            Having been at the Ravenslake meeting at which it was agreed that we would not join the Ayreton shell barony, I would just like to point out, in case it hasn t
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 4, 2008
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              Having been at the Ravenslake meeting at which it was agreed that we
              would not join the Ayreton shell barony, I would just like to point
              out, in case it hasn't been made clear, that Ravenslake never intended
              to make or imply any statement of opposition to the remaining Ayreton
              groups forming a barony.

              We have no wish to veto, prevent, impede, undermine or discourage the
              advancement of the other five groups.

              Sometimes, growth doesn't happen quite the way you might want or
              expect. That's just life.

              - Galen of Bristol
              another guy in Ravenslake

              --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, Teleri <alta_gioiosa@...> wrote:
              >
              > The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of
              their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue. My
              concern is the affect that has on the logic of forming a shell barony
              out of the remaining five groups in the local area.
              >
              > Maybe my perspective is different because I have been happily
              thinking of myself as a citizen of Ayreton (meaning all 6 groups in
              the greater Chicago area) for the last several years. With the
              efforts spent by so many people to promote the unity between groups,
              it has been wonderful to be able to participate in the activities and
              events of all groups, without worrying about what geographic location
              it is in, or which group it "belongs" to.
              >
              > I was not especially in favor of the Ayreton entity of all six
              groups advancing to barony status, but I at least understood the logic
              of the folks proposing it. It would have maintained the unity of the
              area that we had all been working toward. The newly proposed shell
              consisting of only part of the greater Chicago area groups has no such
              obvious logic to it.
              >
              > During the initial advancement discussions, many argued against
              individual groups advancing in status because of the barriers to unity
              that such structures could impose. The newly proposed area-wide
              organization will have to deal with these issues of division. I am
              now looking at the prospect of ending up quite close to the boundary
              of the Barony of Five and the Whatever of Ravenslake, which is quite
              unappealing. While, of course, no wall will go up, and we won't stop
              talking to each other, my experience with the Midrealm is that people
              take Baronial boundaries much more seriously. During the polling
              process, I already had people question my right to express an opinion
              outside my geographic zip code. While the majority of people in the
              area did not support that type of exclusion, such attitudes only
              become stronger under a baronial organization structure.
              >
              > Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to
              maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer
              considered important? My experience with the advancement process is
              that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there
              is little to spare for other matters for a long time. If we want to
              maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead
              of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony
              and Ravenslake? Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival
              event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the
              purview of just the Shell Barony? Will we now need a new separate
              email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five
              groups without Ravenslake? How does it make sense to try and form
              this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion
              of the entire set of six groups?
              >
              > Yours in Service,
              > Teleri
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
              > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent
              >
              > Greetings!
              > Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when
              the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a
              Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we
              decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
              > In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are
              baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a
              bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will
              also be a good thing.
              > While I think it is good that others are concerned that
              Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still
              here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a
              slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and
              Barony, or Barony and Barony.
              > Is mise le meas,
              > Alexander de Seton,
              > Some Guy From Ravenslake
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
              > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
              > Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
              > Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent
              >
              >
              > Ian said>>
              >
              > I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
              > think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
              > their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
              > into forming a shell barony together.
              >
              > ***
              >
              > The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for
              the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now
              changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining
              independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect
              on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a
              major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact
              all 6 local groups and their members.
              >
              > This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial
              meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a
              possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it
              later if that slight possibility became a reality.
              >
              > Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going
              to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?
              >
              > I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the
              shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the
              initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional
              disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major
              advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of
              intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that
              will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will
              institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and
              exclude other groups.
              >
              > Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a
              certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield,
              now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that
              it changes the relationships between groups when such structural
              boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial
              events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing
              lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell
              barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to
              participate and some will not.
              >
              > I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional
              structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.
              >
              > Teleri
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
              >
              >
              >
              > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
              >
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