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Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

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  • marie_la_f
    BIG FURRY GLOWING SAFETY-ORANGE DISCLAIMER: I am speaking here solely for myself, a person who plays in Ravenslake, and not as an officer or representative of
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 1, 2008
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      BIG FURRY GLOWING SAFETY-ORANGE DISCLAIMER: I am speaking here solely
      for myself, a person who plays in Ravenslake, and not as an officer
      or representative of The Shire of Ravenslake.

      That said...

      --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, Teleri <alta_gioiosa@...> wrote:

      > <snip> It will have a major affect on the regional structure of
      this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members. <

      Mrrr, no. (Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding your use of the
      term, which is entirely possible!) The "region" is a purely
      administrative device to facilitate report collection. Whether a
      group is an independent Shire, an independent Barony, or a part of a
      collective such as a shell barony, does not affect the regional
      structure.

      Ravenslake isn't packing its bags and moving to Constellation or
      Northshield or Lochac. It's staying right here in the Midlands where
      it belongs.

      > <snip> I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in
      the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the
      initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional
      disadvantages. <

      What are the disadvantages of 5 instead of 6? I ask this sincerely, I
      would like to know what problems you're seeing. Would you kindly
      elaborate?

      > <snip> The new proposed structure will institutionalize the
      connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups. <

      That would indeed be the case if a group were being excluded against
      their will. As commented in a previous post, the Ravenslake poll was
      0 in favor and 19 against joining the shell barony. That sounds like
      a choice from within, not an exclusion by the rest.

      > Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a
      certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield,
      now that it has become it's own kingdom. <

      Indeedy. I don't think you'll see fewer Ravenslakers at Ayreton
      events, nor will Ayreton folk be "un-invited" to Ravenslake doings,
      regardless of the size or name or structure of our groups. We'd miss
      out on too much fun!

      > However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between
      groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it
      comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial
      championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were
      proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and
      individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will
      not. <

      Absolutely true. That's part of the choices you make when you decide
      whether to participate in a barony.

      > I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional
      structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside. <

      I'm sorry you feel these concerns are (or were) being brushed aside.
      I've felt that the entire process has been quite open so far. But I
      also appreciate your bringing up your questions--I hope we can come
      to a friendly understanding and resolution on all of them.

      Marie la Fauconniere
      just some Lady who plays in Ravenslake
    • AlexdeSet@aol.com
      Greetings! ???? Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony,
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 2, 2008
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        Greetings!
             Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
             In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
             While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
        Is mise le meas,
        Alexander de Seton,
        Some Guy From Ravenslake


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@...>
        To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
        Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

        Ian said>>

        I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
        think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
        their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
        into forming a shell barony together.

        ***

        The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members.

        This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality.

        Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

        I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups.

        Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not.

        I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

        Teleri

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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      • Valerie
        Even though I no longer live in the area I must say I for one look forward with excitement to the prospect of the Ayreton Barony and I really look forward with
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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          Even though I no longer live in the area I must say I for one look
          forward with excitement to the prospect of the Ayreton Barony and I
          really look forward with hope that Ravenslake will become one as well.
          Having spoken to a number of folk from Ravenslake before I left the
          area about the barony issue I'd know of their decision to go a
          different path 7 months ago and some of the reason's sited to me at
          the time was in part the distance Ravenslake was from everyone else.
          Some of the other reasons was a desire to form their own barony. This
          led to the discussion of what if there was TWO baronies in the
          area.....Ahh the schitck to be had with border skirmish between the
          groups and friendly rivaleries. It opens up room for even greater
          banter and lets face it it's not like they wont still help out with
          events and the like. Imagine events potentially being hosted by two
          baronies. Quite Impressive really and opens the door for many fun
          interactions between the groups while still giving Chicago it's more
          cohesive feel.

          I look forward to the day when I may attend event in the barony of
          Ayreton.

          Moira O'Dorran
          Formerly of Ayreton.

          --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, AlexdeSet@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > Greetings!
          >
          > ???? Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when
          the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a
          Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we
          decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
          >
          > ???? In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are
          baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a
          bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will
          also be a good thing.
          >
          > ???? While I think it is good that others are concerned that
          Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still
          here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a
          slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and
          Barony, or Barony and Barony.
          >
          > Is mise le meas,
          >
          > Alexander de Seton,
          >
          > Some Guy From Ravenslake
          >
          >
        • Teleri
          The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue. My concern is the affect
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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            The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue.  My concern is the affect that has on the logic of forming a shell barony out of the remaining five groups in the local area.

             

            Maybe my perspective is different because I have been happily thinking of myself as a citizen of Ayreton (meaning all 6 groups in the greater Chicago area) for the last several years.  With the efforts spent by so many people to promote the unity between groups, it has been wonderful to be able to participate in the activities and events of all groups, without worrying about what geographic location it is in, or which group it "belongs" to.

             

            I was not especially in favor of the Ayreton entity of all six groups advancing to barony status, but I at least understood the logic of the folks proposing it.  It would have maintained the unity of the area that we had all been working toward.  The newly proposed shell consisting of only part of the greater Chicago area groups has no such obvious logic to it.

             

            During the initial advancement discussions, many argued against individual groups advancing in status because of the barriers to unity that such structures could impose.  The newly proposed area-wide organization will have to deal with these issues of division.  I am now looking at the prospect of ending up quite close to the boundary of the Barony of Five and the Whatever of Ravenslake, which is quite unappealing.  While, of course, no wall will go up, and we won't stop talking to each other, my experience with the Midrealm is that people take Baronial boundaries much more seriously.  During the polling process, I already had people question my right to express an opinion outside my geographic zip code.  While the majority of people in the area did not support that type of exclusion, such attitudes only become stronger under a baronial organization structure.

             

            Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer considered important?  My experience with the advancement process is that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there is little to spare for other matters for a long time.  If we want to maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony and Ravenslake?  Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the purview of just the Shell Barony?  Will we now need a new separate email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five groups without Ravenslake?  How does it make sense to try and form this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion of the entire set of six groups?

             

            Yours in Service,

            Teleri



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

            Greetings!
                 Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
                 In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
                 While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
            Is mise le meas,
            Alexander de Seton,
            Some Guy From Ravenslake


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
            Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

            Ian said>>

            I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
            think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
            their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
            into forming a shell barony together.

            ***

            The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members.

            This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality.

            Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

            I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups.

            Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not.

            I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

            Teleri

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
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          • Christian Fournier
            Thank you, Teleri, for clarifying your feelings. You raise some excellent questions, and I wouldn t want to belittle them by immediately countering them in
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 3, 2008
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              Thank you, Teleri, for clarifying your feelings.  You raise some excellent questions, and I wouldn't want to belittle them by immediately "countering" them in turn.  

              Rather, for my part, I'll plan to consider the questions you raise, and see what difference they make in my thoughts about the Baronial issue.  I encourage others to do the same-- give some real thought to the questions below, and let's take them up as we continue discussions at the next Towne Hall.  Some of these questions are interwoven tightly, with each other and with the already open questions of what happens to the Ayreton infrastructure we already have in place.

              Thanks again, Teleri and all,

               Christian

              Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer considered important?  My experience with the advancement process is that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there is little to spare for other matters for a long time.  If we want to maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony and Ravenslake?  Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the purview of just the Shell Barony?  Will we now need a new separate email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five groups without Ravenslake?  How does it make sense to try and form this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion of the entire set of six groups?

               

              Yours in Service,

              Teleri



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent


              Greetings!
                   Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
                   In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will also be a good thing.
                   While I think it is good that others are concerned that Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and Barony, or Barony and Barony.
              Is mise le meas,
              Alexander de Seton,
              Some Guy From Ravenslake


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
              To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
              Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
              Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent

              Ian said>>

              I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I 
              think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on 
              their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look 
              into forming a shell barony together. 

              ***

              The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact all 6 local groups and their members. 

              This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it later if that slight possibility became a reality. 

              Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?

              I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and exclude other groups. 

              Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield, now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that it changes the relationships between groups when such structural boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to participate and some will not. 

              I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.

              Teleri

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 
              http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
              More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!



              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. 

            • Galen of Bristol
              Having been at the Ravenslake meeting at which it was agreed that we would not join the Ayreton shell barony, I would just like to point out, in case it hasn t
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 4, 2008
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                Having been at the Ravenslake meeting at which it was agreed that we
                would not join the Ayreton shell barony, I would just like to point
                out, in case it hasn't been made clear, that Ravenslake never intended
                to make or imply any statement of opposition to the remaining Ayreton
                groups forming a barony.

                We have no wish to veto, prevent, impede, undermine or discourage the
                advancement of the other five groups.

                Sometimes, growth doesn't happen quite the way you might want or
                expect. That's just life.

                - Galen of Bristol
                another guy in Ravenslake

                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, Teleri <alta_gioiosa@...> wrote:
                >
                > The fact that the people Ravenslake chose to remain independent of
                their own will, and have every right to do so is not at issue. My
                concern is the affect that has on the logic of forming a shell barony
                out of the remaining five groups in the local area.
                >
                > Maybe my perspective is different because I have been happily
                thinking of myself as a citizen of Ayreton (meaning all 6 groups in
                the greater Chicago area) for the last several years. With the
                efforts spent by so many people to promote the unity between groups,
                it has been wonderful to be able to participate in the activities and
                events of all groups, without worrying about what geographic location
                it is in, or which group it "belongs" to.
                >
                > I was not especially in favor of the Ayreton entity of all six
                groups advancing to barony status, but I at least understood the logic
                of the folks proposing it. It would have maintained the unity of the
                area that we had all been working toward. The newly proposed shell
                consisting of only part of the greater Chicago area groups has no such
                obvious logic to it.
                >
                > During the initial advancement discussions, many argued against
                individual groups advancing in status because of the barriers to unity
                that such structures could impose. The newly proposed area-wide
                organization will have to deal with these issues of division. I am
                now looking at the prospect of ending up quite close to the boundary
                of the Barony of Five and the Whatever of Ravenslake, which is quite
                unappealing. While, of course, no wall will go up, and we won't stop
                talking to each other, my experience with the Midrealm is that people
                take Baronial boundaries much more seriously. During the polling
                process, I already had people question my right to express an opinion
                outside my geographic zip code. While the majority of people in the
                area did not support that type of exclusion, such attitudes only
                become stronger under a baronial organization structure.
                >
                > Regardless of what happens to the name Ayreton, how do we plan to
                maintain the unity of the greater Chicago entity, or is that no longer
                considered important? My experience with the advancement process is
                that takes so much effort and resources from the group involved, there
                is little to spare for other matters for a long time. If we want to
                maintain the larger area cohesion, will we now need a Governor instead
                of a Mayor to represent the larger entity comprising the Shell Barony
                and Ravenslake? Are things like this mailing list and the Carnival
                event going to continue to represent the larger group or become the
                purview of just the Shell Barony? Will we now need a new separate
                email list and new baronial events to promote the unity of the five
                groups without Ravenslake? How does it make sense to try and form
                this shell of five, if we have been stressing for so long the cohesion
                of the entire set of six groups?
                >
                > Yours in Service,
                > Teleri
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: "AlexdeSet@..." <AlexdeSet@...>
                > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:00:18 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent
                >
                > Greetings!
                > Speaking as a member of the Shire of Ravenslake, present when
                the voting took place, I will say the Shire is excited about having a
                Barony, shell or otherwise, as a neighbor. We were not excluded, we
                decided ourselves to opt out and choose another path.
                > In the Land of Milk and Honey (tm), Fair Caid, there are
                baronies everywhere, many adjacent to each other. This is far from a
                bad thing-it is actively a good thing. If it happens here, it will
                also be a good thing.
                > While I think it is good that others are concerned that
                Ravenslake has been "left out", please understand that we are still
                here, still interacting, sharing, and helping. We have chosen a
                slightly different path, and forsee no problem between shire and
                Barony, or Barony and Barony.
                > Is mise le meas,
                > Alexander de Seton,
                > Some Guy From Ravenslake
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Teleri <alta_gioiosa@ yahoo.com>
                > To: Ayreton@yahoogroups .com
                > Sent: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:17 pm
                > Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Actual wording of the letter of intent
                >
                >
                > Ian said>>
                >
                > I, today do not feel that Ravenslake has "left the fold" nor do I
                > think their choice to look into the potential of becoming a barony on
                > their own in anyway affects the five groups that have decided to look
                > into forming a shell barony together.
                >
                > ***
                >
                > The initial proposal submitted for consideration in the poll was for
                the 6 groups of the region to form a shell barony, and this has now
                changed to only 5 of those groups doing so and one remaining
                independent. I think this change to the proposal as has a large affect
                on the decision to continue forward with the process. It will have a
                major affect on the regional structure of this area, which will impact
                all 6 local groups and their members.
                >
                > This issue was in fact brought up and discussed during the initial
                meetings before the poll. The general response was that such a
                possibility was terribly unlikely, and that we would deal with it
                later if that slight possibility became a reality.
                >
                > Well, here we are, unlikely as it seemed at the time. Are we going
                to in fact deal with it, or try to sweep it under the rug?
                >
                > I think the inclusion of only 5 of the proposed 6 groups in the
                shell barony cancels out many of the suggested advantages of the
                initial proposal, and brings into play a number of additional
                disadvantages. There was a strong opinion that one of the major
                advantages of the shell barony format was to form, as the letter of
                intent indicates, a coherent structure for regional unity. Well, that
                will no longer be the case. The new proposed structure will
                institutionalize the connections between some of those groups and
                exclude other groups.
                >
                > Of course, people are always free to ignore such boundaries to a
                certain extent, just as some of us still go to events in Northshield,
                now that it has become it's own kingdom. However, you cannot deny that
                it changes the relationships between groups when such structural
                boundaries are put in place. When it comes to such things as baronial
                events, baronial awards, baronial championships, baronial mailing
                lists, etc., all of which were proposed as advantages of the shell
                barony, some groups and individuals in the region will be able to
                participate and some will not.
                >
                > I think these changes to the initial scope of the proposed regional
                structure need to be taken seriously, not just brushed aside.
                >
                > Teleri
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
                >
                >
                >
                > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                >
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