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Re: [Ayreton] Re: Letter of Intent

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  • AlexdeSet@aol.com
    Greetings! ???? I suggest that those interested in this information go to the Kingdom Seneschal page and check out the information there made available on
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 29, 2008
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      Greetings!
           I suggest that those interested in this information go to the Kingdom Seneschal page and check out the information there made available on becoming a Barony. Much good info is to be had at a few clicks of a button. I found it...those who know me will attest that if I can find it, anyone can find it.
      Is mise le meas,
      Alexander


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Christian Fournier <cf@...>
      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 6:22 pm
      Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re: Letter of Intent

      For the voting in creating a Barony, does it have to be simple majority or a super majority? 

      It has to be the will of the Crown.

      It sounds flip, I realize, but it's important to recognize that the entire polling process is just there to advise the Crown as to the desires of the Populace.  The Crown then makes the decision on how the groups are structured.  So, to address your question, it's impossible to say what degree of majority is needed, since the Crown makes its own judgement.  

      That said, there are several things that are clear from the Baronial Transitions document and from Kingdom Law:  First, the populace doesn't get to see the results of the poll: those are sent to the Kingdom Seneschal and the Crown.  

      Second, from Kingdom Law, "Existing groups shall not be permitted a division or advancement which will foster a schism or factionalization of a political nature in the resident population."  It's my hope and belief that we're currently all able to fundamentally work together in a reasonable fashion, regardless of the structure of the groups.

      Finally, "No Baron/Baroness will be appointed over the substantial objection of the populace."  Note that this is in regards to the selection of the specific people who end up serving as Baron and Baroness.  


      Hope this helps,

       Christian

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    • Lanina Ysalgue'
      Hello all, (speaking as an individual, NOT senechal) I wish to address Grimkirk s concerns (with the realization I may end up getting attacked). I understand
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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        Hello all,

        (speaking as an individual, NOT senechal)
        I wish to address Grimkirk's concerns (with the
        realization I may end up getting attacked). I
        understand peoples apprehensions of becoming a barony.
        This discussion has been open since last spring and
        the opinions have been listened to time & time again.
        In terms of being not clearly in favor, when has there
        ever been that in any voting? How many people choose
        to abstain from our own governmental voting?
        (especially when it's your own local town hall
        meetings that will affect the zonings, businesses, and
        residencies in your own town?) This situation is no
        different. I'm not saying that the opinions of those
        that abstained from voting have no opinion or that
        their opinion was not listened to, but at the point of
        putting the issue to a vote, they made the choice to
        NOT vote. It does not mean they agree, IT DOES NOT
        MEAN THEY DISAGREE EITHER, so do not take their
        silence as being against the issue. You have your own
        opinions, others have theirs, and they shall remain
        seperate.

        As for a request to have a non-event related town hall
        meeting, I (personally: not speaking for others)am
        willing to entertain the notion. If any suggestions
        can be made on a time, date & place where ALL AYRETON
        IS ABLE TO ATTEND AND PAYMENT FOR SPACE IS NOT NEEDED
        I will be there. With this people will need to
        consider others work schedules, personal priorities
        and activities as well as not conflicting with other
        various activities that people will say have more
        priority over this town hall meeting that has been
        requested.

        (as I return to being woodwork)
        Isabella De Bolsa

        ______________________________________________________
        2c. Re: Letter of Intent
        Posted by: "auldefarte" auldefarte@...
        auldefarte
        Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:02 pm (PST)

        Group: YES NO Abstain % Not clearly
        in favor
        Vanished Woods: 6 2 5 53.9%
        Foxvale 8 0 3 27.3%
        Grey Gargoyles 12 4 1 29.5%
        Rokkehealden 14 4 3 33.4%
        Tree Girt Sea 15(c) 3(+3) 1 28.6%
        This vote was tied to the motion to drop
        its Provincial status, so as to become an
        equal canton with the other groups participating.
        (c) = Corrected count
        Per Nadezda, Ayreton list 7/19/07.
        (+3)= Missed poll, but known to be opposed,
        including myself.

        Ravenslake 0 19 0 100.0%
        They will likely proceed with their own efforts
        to become a barony.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------
        Average not clearly in favor: 34.54%

        Therefore I wish to respectfully request the committee
        hold an
        Ayreton-wide town hall (ONLY) day function to be held
        within 30-60
        calendar days of your committee's receipt of the
        Kingdom's permission to
        proceed. This function should be specifically for the
        purpose of holding
        collective and open discussion of all points of view
        on the subject
        across all groups, particularly for the benefit of
        those who may not
        have had an opportunity to hear any opposing arguments
        (pro or con), or
        for unavailable commentors to provide adequate and
        timely proxy for
        their statements; not just a partial gathering of
        strongly interested
        parties convened at a conveniently located group event
        which would
        likely require interested parties to pay to attend.



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • David Roland
        Average not clearly in favor: 34.54% Grimkirk ap Greymoor That would mean that 65.46% of people ARE clearly in favor. That is Nearly 2 to 1 or twice
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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          " Average not clearly in favor: 34.54%"
          Grimkirk ap Greymoor

          That would mean that 65.46% of people ARE clearly in favor. That is
          Nearly 2 to 1 or twice as many people CLEARLY IN FAVOR as not
          clearly in favor.

          To intimate in any way that this is not a clear majority would be
          nothing more than pot stirring in my opinion and I wouldn't want to
          be forced to believe that of you.

          "Note: There are several other individuals whom I know for a fact
          are not represented in these dissenting figures who have as recently
          as this weekend, clearly expressed opposition to your committee's
          proposal (including at least two Royal Peers). Their only misdeed
          was not being available for or aware of the polls at the particular
          date and time they were conducted."
          Grimkirk ap Greymoor

          Aaah the argument of "ghost" people. With respect, (and I'm utterly
          certain that these "ghost" people do exist by the way), the same can
          be said for those that are in favor. Several of them peers as
          well. Votes were announced well beforehand, over a several month
          period, there was no subterfuge or attempts to obfuscate. To say or
          imply otherwise would be to call the honor of those seneschals and
          involved individuals into question. I was there, I saw, it was done
          with clarity and announced well before hand.

          My rememedy is to pay attention to what your local group is doing
          and things won't slip by you that you are for or against. It would
          be the same thing if your favorite store had a sale, advertised it,
          and then you said, hey they should do it again because they didn't
          come knock on my door and tell me personally.

          Because of the well announced votes over a time period any
          discussion based off of "ghost" people clearly in favor or not
          clearly in favor is null and void before it begins and so therefor
          is any argument or discussion based off of it.

          We as the five groups that on average were nearly 2 to 1 in favor, a
          clear majority, have tendered our letter of intent to the Crown of
          the Middle Kingdom. We are onto the next step. At this point we
          wait for word from the Crown. It will come as a yes or no and
          things will proceed from there as they may. And it is reasonable
          and good for people, even those who are clearly in favor, to have
          some nervousness or apprehension about this process. It is equally
          reasonable to be forward looking and happy about it as well. I'm
          sure there is a running of the gambit on this.

          If people wish to think about a period name other than Ayreton, let
          them. No harm can come of it and something good may. If we never
          become a barony and we change our name to something else that people
          like it, then good!

          If people wish to think about and design heraldry for the Towne, let
          them. No harm can come of it and something good may. The Midlands
          Badge, Bob, is a rallying point and nice symbol but the Midlands has
          not Baron or Prince over it and it is good to have. And Bob is
          registered to an individual not the region. If this happens for
          Ayreton and people like it, then good!

          Ian The Green, APF, AoA
          And just to clarify - former and first Ayreton Towne Cryer
        • John Adams
          Good morning. I hope your anticipation doesn t include me. I have no intention of - attacking - anyone. I do not believe that I stated those who abstained
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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            Good morning.

            I hope your 'anticipation' doesn't include me. I have
            no intention of - attacking - anyone.

            I do not believe that I stated those who abstained
            were against the transition.

            While your point is well taken, as you pointed out,
            failing to vote in favor of the topic at hand is still
            failing to vote against it as well. It is then not
            incorrect to characterize their silence as 'not
            clearly in favor of' the subject at hand. Failing to
            vote FOR or AGAINST it is the same as failing to make
            clear your preference. Therefore, it is not a
            mischaracterization. As you comment, perhaps those
            individuals have simply not been convinced one way or
            another, but then they have not been moved to clearly
            choose favorably. That was the only point to be made
            by the numbers I presented.

            Understand, this is not a spin of, 'Those who are not
            for us, must be against us'. It is simply indicating
            that a significant portion of this community are
            either against supporting this transition or do not
            clearly believe that this transition is something they
            can support. That means (to me) that its advocates,
            including the officers involved, appear to be more
            interested in assuring the change than being concerned
            about the potential for a serious 'schizm' in this
            locality (as opposed to a minor one if the numbers
            were less significant) that could be the by product of
            this process. Was all.

            -- Grimkirk

            --- Lanina Ysalgue' <yslagy@...> wrote:
            > Hello all,
            > (speaking as an individual, NOT senechal)
            > I wish to address Grimkirk's concerns (with the
            > realization I may end up getting attacked).


            > In terms of being not clearly in favor, when has
            > there
            > ever been that in any voting? How many people choose
            > to abstain from our own governmental voting?
            > (especially when it's your own local town hall
            > meetings that will affect the zonings, businesses,
            > and
            > residencies in your own town?) This situation is no
            > different. I'm not saying that the opinions of those
            > that abstained from voting have no opinion or that
            > their opinion was not listened to, but at the point
            > of
            > putting the issue to a vote, they made the choice to
            > NOT vote. It does not mean they agree, IT DOES NOT
            > MEAN THEY DISAGREE EITHER, so do not take their
            > silence as being against the issue. You have your
            > own opinions, others have theirs, and they shall
            > remain seperate.


            > As for a request to have a non-event related town
            > hall
            > meeting, I (personally: not speaking for others)am
            > willing to entertain the notion. If any suggestions
            > can be made on a time, date & place where ALL
            > AYRETON
            > IS ABLE TO ATTEND AND PAYMENT FOR SPACE IS NOT
            > NEEDED
            > I will be there. With this people will need to
            > consider others work schedules, personal priorities
            > and activities as well as not conflicting with other
            > various activities that people will say have more
            > priority over this town hall meeting that has been
            > requested.


            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          • JC Ravage
            What remedy do you suggest? Any re-vote will have the same problems as the last one, with regard to people not voting. The voting was well-announced and
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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              What remedy do you suggest? Any re-vote will have the same problems
              as the last one, with regard to people not voting. The voting was
              well-announced and proxies were available, so the only reason someone
              could not have made their vote recorded would be if they weren't
              paying attention at all until it was too late. Any re-vote that had a
              fixed deadline could not do better. What assurance do we have that
              enough people to satisfy you would turn up at the Towne Hall you
              suggested in your first post, when they didn't vote or send proxies to
              the voting that already took place?

              If instead you're asking for the polls to remain open until everyone's
              said "yea" or "nay," that's effectively asking for us to never do
              anything about it.



              William Atherbridge

              On Jan 30, 2008 9:03 AM, John Adams <auldefarte@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Good morning.
              >
              > I hope your 'anticipation' doesn't include me. I have
              > no intention of - attacking - anyone.
              >
              > I do not believe that I stated those who abstained
              > were against the transition.
              >
              > While your point is well taken, as you pointed out,
              > failing to vote in favor of the topic at hand is still
              > failing to vote against it as well. It is then not
              > incorrect to characterize their silence as 'not
              > clearly in favor of' the subject at hand. Failing to
              > vote FOR or AGAINST it is the same as failing to make
              > clear your preference. Therefore, it is not a
              > mischaracterization. As you comment, perhaps those
              > individuals have simply not been convinced one way or
              > another, but then they have not been moved to clearly
              > choose favorably. That was the only point to be made
              > by the numbers I presented.
              >
              > Understand, this is not a spin of, 'Those who are not
              > for us, must be against us'. It is simply indicating
              > that a significant portion of this community are
              > either against supporting this transition or do not
              > clearly believe that this transition is something they
              > can support. That means (to me) that its advocates,
              > including the officers involved, appear to be more
              > interested in assuring the change than being concerned
              > about the potential for a serious 'schizm' in this
              > locality (as opposed to a minor one if the numbers
              > were less significant) that could be the by product of
              > this process. Was all.
              >
              > -- Grimkirk
              >
              >
              > --- Lanina Ysalgue' <yslagy@...> wrote:
              > > Hello all,
              > > (speaking as an individual, NOT senechal)
              > > I wish to address Grimkirk's concerns (with the
              > > realization I may end up getting attacked).
              >
              >
              > > In terms of being not clearly in favor, when has
              > > there
              > > ever been that in any voting? How many people choose
              > > to abstain from our own governmental voting?
              > > (especially when it's your own local town hall
              > > meetings that will affect the zonings, businesses,
              > > and
              > > residencies in your own town?) This situation is no
              > > different. I'm not saying that the opinions of those
              > > that abstained from voting have no opinion or that
              > > their opinion was not listened to, but at the point
              > > of
              > > putting the issue to a vote, they made the choice to
              > > NOT vote. It does not mean they agree, IT DOES NOT
              > > MEAN THEY DISAGREE EITHER, so do not take their
              > > silence as being against the issue. You have your
              > > own opinions, others have theirs, and they shall
              > > remain seperate.
              >
              > > As for a request to have a non-event related town
              > > hall
              > > meeting, I (personally: not speaking for others)am
              > > willing to entertain the notion. If any suggestions
              > > can be made on a time, date & place where ALL
              > > AYRETON
              > > IS ABLE TO ATTEND AND PAYMENT FOR SPACE IS NOT
              > > NEEDED
              > > I will be there. With this people will need to
              > > consider others work schedules, personal priorities
              > > and activities as well as not conflicting with other
              > > various activities that people will say have more
              > > priority over this town hall meeting that has been
              > > requested.
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
              >



              --
              "Hard it is to lift a full cup without spilling."--Gorice XII
            • John Adams
              Good my Lord, you do cut to the chase, don t you. I give you my thanks for it. Everything you say is indeed most true. A re-poll (we don t vote) would be
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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                Good my Lord, you do cut to the chase, don't you. I
                give you my thanks for it.

                Everything you say is indeed most true. A re-poll (we
                don't vote) would be fraught with the same pitfalls.
                And is quite unnecessary, as there would seem to be
                sufficient evidence of dissent within the numbers
                already collected. The point I make is that given
                significant dissent (or, in the case of those who
                choase to abstain, a failure to be convinced of the
                issue's merits), there is reason for concern that
                making this move might not be wholly in the best
                interest of the community in this locality.

                A community is comprised of more than simply the
                numbers of its constituents. There is the kinship
                which one feels for their neighbor. There is the sense
                of belonging, that you co-exist with others of like
                mind and spirit. When any segment of that community
                cares so little for those factors, especially enough
                to draw a line down the middle of Main Street and say,
                'We outnumber you and therefore do not care what you
                think', the 'community' is genuinely emperiled.

                The 'remedy' you seek from me is not easily manifest.
                It would require that those who supposedly seek to
                'facilitate (formal) representation of this area' to
                actually care about the potential for negative impact
                upon this group, and not just the prize at the end of
                the journey.

                -- Grimkirk

                --- JC Ravage <ravagio@...> wrote:
                > What remedy do you suggest? Any re-vote will have
                > the same problems as the last one, with regard to
                > people not voting. The voting was well-announced
                > and proxies were available, so the only reason
                > someone could not have made their vote recorded
                > would be if they weren't paying attention at all
                > until it was too late. Any re-vote that had a
                > fixed deadline could not do better. What assurance
                > do we have that enough people to satisfy you would
                > turn up at the Towne Hall you suggested in your
                > first post, when they didn't vote or send proxies
                > to the voting that already took place?
                >
                > If instead you're asking for the polls to remain
                > open until everyone's said "yea" or "nay," that's
                > effectively asking for us to never do anything
                > about it.
                >
                > William Atherbridge


                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • John Adams
                Given the length of Ian s missive, I ll answer inline. -- G ... Anything over 50% is a majority . And of course, the farther you get from 50%, the clearer
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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                  Given the length of Ian's missive, I'll answer inline.
                  -- G

                  --- David Roland <mystborne@...> wrote:
                  > Grimkirk ap Greymoor wrote:
                  >> "Average not clearly in favor: 34.54%"
                  >
                  > That would mean that 65.46% of people ARE
                  > clearly in favor. That is Nearly 2 to 1 or
                  > twice as many people CLEARLY IN FAVOR as
                  > not clearly in favor.
                  >
                  > To intimate in any way that this is not a
                  > clear majority would be nothing more than
                  > pot stirring in my opinion and I wouldn't
                  > want to be forced to believe that of you.

                  Anything over 50% is a 'majority'. And of course, the
                  farther you get from 50%, the 'clearer' some things
                  become, especially for the winners. However, if this
                  issue was 'clearly' about it being 2:1 in favor, and
                  nothing else mattered, then you might as well take the
                  remaining third or so out back and shoot them (winners
                  writing history), so that those in favor can go along
                  their merry way with unfettered conscience.

                  Yes, Ian, in a democracy, losers of a vote generally
                  have to live with the will of the 'majority'. But I do
                  not care to think that the members of *this* community
                  are so self-centered as to want to fracture our
                  carefully crafted harmony.

                  You may believe what you wish of me, especially if you
                  are among those who can so easily discard the 1/3rd of
                  the population this proposal's advocates are prepared
                  to leave in the dust, or drag through this mess. I'm
                  pretty sure nobody's got a knife at your throat
                  'forcing' you to think anything you don't wish to
                  think of your own accord.

                  > Grimkirk ap Greymoor also wrote:
                  >> "Note: There are several other individuals whom
                  >> I know for a fact are not represented in these
                  >> dissenting figures who have as recently as this
                  >> weekend, clearly expressed opposition to your
                  >> committee's proposal (including at least two
                  >> Royal Peers). Their only misdeed was not being
                  >> available for or aware of the polls at the
                  >> particular date and time they were conducted."
                  >
                  >
                  > Aaah the argument of "ghost" people. With
                  > respect, (and I'm utterly certain that these
                  > "ghost" people do exist by the way), the same
                  > can be said for those that are in favor. Several
                  > of them peers as well. Votes were announced
                  > well beforehand, over a several month period,
                  > there was no subterfuge or attempts to obfuscate.
                  > To say or imply otherwise would be to call the
                  > honor of those seneschals and involved individuals
                  > into question. I was there, I saw, it was done
                  > with clarity and announced well before hand.

                  I don't recall the words subterfuge or obfuscation
                  ever entering into my dialog. These are your words,
                  Ian, and sadly, they are the words of inflamation and
                  baiting. As I indicated, those who missed the simple
                  poll, simply missed it. A minor transgression, but
                  their voices should still be important to this
                  project's architects, if the goal is to genuinely
                  benefit the community, and is not just a self-serving
                  one. Creating significant conflict isn't usually seen
                  to be beneficial.

                  As for your 'ghosts' (and Peers), their voices deserve
                  to be heard as well. However, it comes as no surprise
                  that they're not here proclaiming their right to be
                  heard, since 'Me Too!' as an echo to a victory which
                  has already been declared seems a poor use of the
                  forum. But they're certainly welcome to.


                  > My rememedy is to pay attention to what your
                  > local group is doing and things won't slip by
                  > you that you are for or against. It would be
                  > the same thing if your favorite store had a sale,
                  > advertised it, and then you said, hey they
                  > should do it again because they didn't come
                  > knock on my door and tell me personally.

                  Ian, I'm glad that worked for you. Nobody is saying,
                  'Hey! Poll us again.' What is being said is that 'If
                  your intentions are indeed noble, then perhaps you
                  should take a second look. Especially since the
                  numbers are so glaring.' If you don't care, go right
                  ahead. Numbers in the 60's are hardly a mandate. If
                  they'd been in the 80's or 90's, I'd probably be
                  grousing in my Guinness, and that'd be the end of it.


                  > Because of the well announced votes over a time
                  > period any discussion based off of "ghost" people
                  > clearly in favor or not clearly in favor is null
                  > and void before it begins and so therefor is any
                  > argument or discussion based off of it.

                  'Null and void' are convenient legalese, and not
                  terribly SCA. Unless, of course, you're in Milpitas
                  these days.

                  The numbers I posted only reflected the opinions of
                  the 3 additional people in one specific group. Even
                  without them, those not clearly in favor would have
                  been 21.0%. The numbers from other groups stand
                  unaltered. If you re-average on that, the percentage
                  not clearly in favor drops only to 33.0 percent, still
                  a 'clear' third of those polled at the time of
                  polling. Are you now claiming those individuals who
                  were present and failed to cast their lot in with you
                  'null and void'? While I am fairly certain you are
                  not, your commentary certainly gives that impression.
                  At the very least, to me.


                  > We as the five groups that on average were
                  > nearly 2 to 1 in favor, a clear majority, have
                  > tendered our letter of intent to the Crown of
                  > the Middle Kingdom. We are onto the next step.
                  > At this point we wait for word from the Crown.
                  > It will come as a yes or no and things will
                  > proceed from there as they may. And it is
                  > reasonable and good for people, even those who
                  > are clearly in favor, to have some nervousness
                  > or apprehension about this process. It is
                  > equally reasonable to be forward looking and
                  > happy about it as well. I'm sure there is a
                  > running of the gambit on this.

                  'We'. Meaning 'us' (you) as opposed to 'them' (the
                  others). Yeah, this is a Barony we can ALL look
                  forward to (including the 2/3 who thought it was a
                  good idea at the time).


                  > If people wish to think about a period name
                  > other than Ayreton, let them. No harm can
                  > come of it and something good may. If we never
                  > become a barony and we change our name to
                  > something else that people like it, then good!
                  >
                  > If people wish to think about and design
                  > heraldry for the Towne, let them. No harm can
                  > come of it and something good may. The Midlands
                  > Badge, Bob, is a rallying point and nice symbol
                  > but the Midlands has not Baron or Prince over
                  > it and it is good to have. And Bob is registered
                  > to an individual not the region. If this
                  > happens for Ayreton and people like it, then
                  > good!

                  True, people may spend their time as they wish. And
                  the heraldic aspects of the SCA are certainly some of
                  the most enjoyable. My original suggestion simply
                  promotes the idea that perhaps it would be better to
                  see to the welfare of the community before putting
                  painting a house in the rain.

                  In Service,

                  -- Grimkirk


                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                • Wolfram von Waldersbach
                  Thanks for the response, Master Christian. I have to dig through more than enough statutory law in the course of my day job, and I really didn t feel like
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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                    Thanks for the response, Master Christian. I have to dig through more
                    than enough statutory law in the course of my day job, and I really
                    didn't feel like having to do it in my fun time too... haha.


                    In Service,


                    -Wolfram von Waldersbach
                    "Voca me cum benedictis"
                    Archery Marshal of the Shire of the Grey Gargoyles
                    Autocrat - Stone Dog Inn V
                    "Es gibt zwei Sachen da sollte man besser nicht wissen wie es gemacht
                    wird- Wurst und Politik"- Otto von Bismarck


                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, Christian Fournier <cf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > For the voting in creating a Barony, does it have to be simple
                    > > majority or a super majority?
                    >
                    > It has to be the will of the Crown.
                    >
                    > It sounds flip, I realize, but it's important to recognize that
                    the
                    > entire polling process is just there to advise the Crown as to the
                    > desires of the Populace. The Crown then makes the decision on how
                    > the groups are structured. So, to address your question, it's
                    > impossible to say what degree of majority is needed, since the
                    Crown
                    > makes its own judgement.
                    >
                    > That said, there are several things that are clear from the
                    Baronial
                    > Transitions document and from Kingdom Law: First, the populace
                    > doesn't get to see the results of the poll: those are sent to the
                    > Kingdom Seneschal and the Crown.
                    >
                    > Second, from Kingdom Law, "Existing groups shall not be permitted
                    a
                    > division or advancement which will foster a schism or
                    > factionalization of a political nature in the resident
                    population."
                    > It's my hope and belief that we're currently all able to
                    > fundamentally work together in a reasonable fashion, regardless of
                    > the structure of the groups.
                    >
                    > Finally, "No Baron/Baroness will be appointed over the substantial
                    > objection of the populace." Note that this is in regards to the
                    > selection of the specific people who end up serving as Baron and
                    > Baroness.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hope this helps,
                    >
                    > Christian
                    >
                  • mandy lemke
                    Good day to all! I do not normally post. Especially when it is about things I am truly unknowledgeable about. Thank you to those who have posted answers to the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 30, 2008
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                      Good day to all! I do not normally post. Especially when it is about things I am truly unknowledgeable about. Thank you to those who have posted answers to the questions that have been raised, such as the majority voting, and such. I greatly appreciate that.
                      With that being said, I would like to say something. I abstained from the vote to become a barony. Not because the idea doesn't sit well with me, or the idea is just so great I can't sit still, but because of my inexperience. I am fairly new to the society. I have been in 6 yrs, however, I play more with my local group due to money issues, school schedule and such. I have been a college student over these last years, working, going to school and have fun in the sca. There fore my time has been limited. I can honestly say, I don't know how baronies truly differ from the way the aryeton group has been playing together. I think it would be wonderful to be able to give newer people awards to say thank you, or even recognize those older members, who are often over looked because people assume what they have. I also think it would be nice to not have to wait more than two reigns before a crown comes to the chicagoland area again.
                      So truly please understand, some have abstained either for or against the barony, not because of thoughts on things, but on inexperience. I have not been here when there wasn't a time when everyone didn't get along, and that groups worked together and truly supported each other, the way they have over the last five or so years. So please take this into consideration for your thoughts, and even for a possible topic at the town hall meeting.
                      Thanks Much and hope everyone stays warm!
                      Francesca del Mar,
                      Mandy from Foxvale
                    • James McAdams
                      Greetings to one and all, I have two questions I would like to offer for consideration. First - one to help describe everyone s expectations. How many people
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 31, 2008
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                        Greetings to one and all,

                        I have two questions I would like to offer for consideration. First
                        - one to help describe everyone's expectations. How many people should
                        support forming a barony before it progresses? The assumption so far
                        has been a simple majority, and much in our lives encourages that as an
                        obvious response. Lord Grimkirk seems to feel that a higher standard
                        should be met, in excess of 2/3rds of those responding.
                        Or perhaps the correct baseline is not those responding, but the
                        larger population? That is a thorny issue that (to my mind) can only be
                        resolved in 2 manners - gatherings such as we have had, and a formal
                        polling of paid membership which will occur if the process continues.

                        Which leads to my second - rhetorical - question. While those of us
                        who live locally may have our own biases and blindnesses when it comes
                        to local affairs, do we trust the officers of the Kingdom to use their
                        perspective and experience to judge an eventual poll, the process (as
                        the discussions here will doubtless be available to them), and the rest
                        of the proposal; and to decline or defer advancement if there is
                        sufficient cause?

                        Xavier
                      • Ryan Pierce
                        On the subject of official polling by the Kingdom.... I know that, should a Barony form, the issue of which people to put in the office of Baron and Baroness
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 31, 2008
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                          On the subject of official polling by the Kingdom....

                          I know that, should a Barony form, the issue of which people to put in the office of Baron and Baroness will be put to the populace of paid members via a poll that is mailed to them.

                          But will the question of whether or not to form a Barony in the first place be put to an official poll?

                          In service,
                          Ryan Mackenzie



                          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                        • Teleri
                          The last time I went through this process, which was several years ago and a single group advancement, they were looking for more than a simple majority vote.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 31, 2008
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                            The last time I went through this process, which was several years ago and a single group advancement, they were looking for more than a simple majority vote.  They were looking for a consensus among the populace that this was the best thing for the group.  This is a highly subjective measure, and the poll was used as supporting evidence on whether there was a strong consensus.  There were also months of meetings where we debated the pros and cons of the barony, and the final form of the barony (term lengths, baronial awards, etc.).  At that time the process was overseen by a mediator not belonging to the group, who reported the progress of the meetings back to the kingdom level to help them make their decision.
                             
                            Again, group advancement and the choice of landed Baron/ess(es) is all at the pleasure of their Majesties, with advice from their Officers, so the final decision, and how they use the poll to make that decision, will always depend on the individuals currently in those positions.
                             
                            Teleri

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: James McAdams <jmcadams@...>
                            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 5:32:08 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Re:Letter of Intent


                            Greetings to one and all,

                            I have two questions I would like to offer for consideration. First
                            - one to help describe everyone's expectations. How many people should
                            support forming a barony before it progresses? The assumption so far
                            has been a simple majority, and much in our lives encourages that as an
                            obvious response. Lord Grimkirk seems to feel that a higher standard
                            should be met, in excess of 2/3rds of those responding.
                            Or perhaps the correct baseline is not those responding, but the
                            larger population? That is a thorny issue that (to my mind) can only be
                            resolved in 2 manners - gatherings such as we have had, and a formal
                            polling of paid membership which will occur if the process continues.

                            Which leads to my second - rhetorical - question. While those of us
                            who live locally may have our own biases and blindnesses when it comes
                            to local affairs, do we trust the officers of the Kingdom to use their
                            perspective and experience to judge an eventual poll, the process (as
                            the discussions here will doubtless be available to them), and the rest
                            of the proposal; and to decline or defer advancement if there is
                            sufficient cause?

                            Xavier




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