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Re: Groups Transition Discussion

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  • grimkirk
    With Henry s recent sound advice in mind, and noting that this response has been in progress prior to the last few posts: Nadezda wrote on July 19th: Of 18
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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      With Henry's recent sound advice in mind, and noting that this
      response has been in progress prior to the last few posts:

      Nadezda wrote on July 19th:
      "Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make the shift to a Canton to
      promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in as being in favor by
      proxy, and one more abstained."

      Yes, I read Nadezda's post as well, yet I fail to see your point.
      While there are a few discrepancies with those numbers (undocumented
      dissent), and I was not in attendance, so there does not seem to be
      enough to change their general indication at this time. Regardless,
      your perception that the group was overwhelmingly in favor of being
      demoted to Canton hardly negates my opinion or historical
      observations. I suggest (as does Lord Andrew) that the opinions of
      those present were simply a sample of the mood du jour of those who
      were present; hardly authoritative. Or does everyone actually think
      that TGS only has a population of 18-20 people. Or that those who
      were not in attendance have no opinion (or are not entitled to
      express it)? For a group ostensibly the size of a Province, I'd think
      even the Kingdom would find such numbers suspect. And trust me, they
      will look deeper.

      You are invited to counter dissent with well reasoned argument.
      However, I strongly suggest you not discount dissent on suspect
      numbers alone (even if they are in the minority), lest some get it
      into their heads that the SCA is something resembling a democracy. It
      is not. The SCA's storied existance indicates that such dissent can
      be sufficient to derail even the most well intentioned of endeavors.
      And being blinded by entusiasm over EARLY 'test results' will
      certainly prove a more effective foil than any argument I can make.

      However, as you can see from Nadezda's numbers, there is nothing
      indicating any 'dissent', which is why I'm sure you interpreted them
      as 'overwhelming'. For the record, Nadezda informed me just last
      night that had I been present at that meeting, I would not have been
      alone in my dissent. Also, 'willing to shift' is hardly 'in favor
      of'. I'm guessing, but I suspect Nadezda most likely felt it was only
      important to communicate the general outcome (a relatively harmless
      oversight). Clearly I disagree, as it would seem equally important
      for the degree of dissention to be made known as well. Of course,
      your personal mileage may vary. However, I'm sure the Kingdom will
      want to know those numbers as well, should this endeavor even get
      that far.

      And none of this really counters anything I said previously. It is
      simply my wish to permit everyone to make more informed decisions
      when the time comes.

      -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
      Province of Tre-Girt-Sea

      --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
      > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
      > status in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
      > groups of Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and
      > 2 against. The archives certainly have the announcement in them
      > if you and others wish to locate the announcement.
      >
      > Ian the Green
    • David Roland
      Purple, I am still the Ayreton Towne Cryer, and I have a deputy, please make sure to have your facts correct. The official vote for the Province was taken at a
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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        Purple,

        I am still the Ayreton Towne Cryer, and I have a deputy, please make
        sure to have your facts correct.

        The official vote for the Province was taken at a TGS business
        meeting and the Seneschal posted the results of same.

        Message can be found at:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/1349

        The body of the message is:

        "As was suggested during the town meeting at Border Skirmish,
        Tree-Girt-Sea discussed the aspect of what an shell barony would mean
        to us during our recent moot. As was pointed out during the town
        meeting, being a Province currently, Tree-Girt-Sea would be most
        impacted by a status change. Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make
        the shift to a Canton to promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in
        as being in favor by proxy, and one more abstained.

        -Nadezda
        TGS Seneschal"

        It is and was my understanding that this was and is an official vote
        conducted as official business of the Province of Tree Girt Sea and
        I have done nothing more than report same. I do know that this
        meeting and the discussion of the meeting was published well in
        advance through the normal means of doing so in the Province and so
        everyone who wished to be aware of the meeting was. Those who chose
        to attend did. It is this post that I was refering to and
        referencing as official business already announced on the list by
        the Provinve of Tree Girt Sea's Seneschal. Not personal opinion.

        The polling will reveal what the polling will reveal should the area
        get to the point of polling. No chickens were counted before they
        were hatched by myself.

        As the Ayreton Towne Cryer I try very hard to maintain my personal
        opinion as seperate from my work as the Ayreton Towne Cryer. In
        that position a "favorable opinion voiced" is one that is respectful
        of all on the list including the person directly addressed, phased
        thoughtfully and when discussing facts can cite the source and
        quotes them correctly.

        Further, Purple, you are making a personal attack and as such are
        violating the rules of this list. In this case the attack is on
        myself one of the owners and moderators of the list by directly
        calling me a liar and putting words in others mouths because I
        simply reported a fact.

        As I am intimately involved with this violation of the rules, and in
        an effort to maintain my neutrality as the Ayreton Towne Cryer, one
        of the owners and moderators of this list, I shall be handing off
        the decision of how to handle this infraction to the other
        moderators/owners of this list.

        Ian the Green
        Ayreton Towne Cryer


        --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
        > > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
        status
        > > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
        groups of
        > > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
        > > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
        > > others wish to locate the announcement.
        > >
        > > Ian the Green
        >
        > This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.
        >
        > In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who
        were
        > PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far,
        the
        > VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote,
        and
        > you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.
        >
        > In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be
        > officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
        > threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against
        would
        > even be counted.
        >
        > Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
        > chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped
        down
        > as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.
        >
        >
        > A
        > --
        > Qui Tacet Consentit
        >
      • Scribesquire@comcast.net
        Responded to privately. Henry of Exeter ... From: Drew Nicholson ... Truth does not take a backseat to politeness. There are people
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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          Responded to privately.
           
          Henry of Exeter
           
          -------------- Original message --------------
          From: "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>

          On 9/17/07, Scribesquire@ comcast.net <Scribesquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
          >
          > Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it. If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
          >
          > Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
          >

          Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.

          There are people opposed to this idea. Cooperation is not necessarily
          their goal. Opposition is. If I intend an email to be insulting --
          and this one was clearly not -- you would know it.

          A
          --
          Qui Tacet Consentit

        • Philippa of Otterbourne
          ... I agree truth is important but it can be conveyed tactfully and politely without taking a backseat. Perhaps your intention wasn t to be insulting but it
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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            On 9/17/07, Drew Nicholson <drewishdrewid@...> wrote:
            On 9/17/07, Scribesquire@... < Scribesquire@...> wrote:
            >
            > Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it.  If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
            >
            > Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
            >

            >Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
             
             
            I agree truth is important but it can be conveyed tactfully and politely without taking a backseat.  Perhaps your intention wasn't to be insulting but it wasn't perceived as such by me and apparently others.  I do hope we don't actually find out when your intent IS to insult if your recent response was not meant to.

            There are people opposed to this idea.  Cooperation is not necessarily
            their goal.  Opposition is.  If I intend an email to be insulting --
            and this one was clearly not -- you would know it.
             
            I think there is alot of support for this idea, as well as opposition.  I think everyone is well aware that the groups would have to be officially polled in order to become a barony.  My understanding is that these votes being done at the groups business meetings are just a way to determine if there is enough support to move forward or not.  If the TGS vote was taken at at time when only 20 people could be there (which sounds like a good turnout for most business meetings although I'm involved with a smaller group) then either the official polling will show the lack of support or perhaps you might want to consider a group poll through email?
             
            I just think by turning on each other, we serve no purpose to either derail the process or continue it.  It merely creates dissention among members and indicates that despite recent measures we really can't even try to work together. 
             
            Again, if the individual groups decide to proceed with the idea of a Barony, it's not going to happen if there is enough opposition at the time of official polling.  However, we won't get anywhere without proceeding to that stage.  We'll remain in limbo with the idea of a barony popping up every few years. At least if groups decide to proceed, we can either end the idea based on the polling indicating there's not enough support or by going forward because there is enough.
             
            We can still accomplish things (opposition and support) by not turning it personal. 
             
            YIS,
             
            Philippa of Otterbourne
            Chatelaine, Shire of Rokkehealden
             
             
             

             
          • nadezda_zezastrizl
            Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn t feel I needed to explain that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious. I noted the proxies
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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              Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn't feel I needed to explain
              that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious.
              I noted the proxies separately, in part to show that I was attempting
              to hear all those expressing a concern about the Province's future.
              As for those who didn't show up for that meeting or didn't weigh in, I
              can only assume they had no opinion, or at least trusted those who did
              show up to weigh in for them. There's not much else I can do.
              -Nadezda
            • John Adams
              Nope, you re right. Not much you can do about no shows. ;) -- G ... From: nadezda_zezastrizl To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com Sent:
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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                Nope, you're right. Not much you can do about no shows. ;)

                -- G

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: nadezda_zezastrizl <nadezda_z@...>
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:47:11 AM
                Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Groups Transition Discussion


                Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn't feel I needed to explain
                that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious.
                I noted the proxies separately, in part to show that I was attempting
                to hear all those expressing a concern about the Province's future.
                As for those who didn't show up for that meeting or didn't weigh in, I
                can only assume they had no opinion, or at least trusted those who did
                show up to weigh in for them. There's not much else I can do.
                -Nadezda



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              • spdesroches@att.net
                A couple of points First, the vote taken at that meeting was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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                  A couple of points

                   

                  First, the vote taken at that meeting was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey Gargoyles, with discussion amongst those who attended. The results had a similar outcome and percentage ratio in the voting of those who attended, namely overwhelmingly in favor of proceeding with the joining into a shell barony.

                        The process requires initial public discussion on a face-to-face basis by those who care to attend a business meeting. Democracy and progress require attendance and actual participation, not just media screed. If you want a viable working opinion, get to your group's business meeting and vote.

                       Second, our size is no real or mature barrier to the creation, administration or participation in a viable shell barony. Inspiration and dedication to excellence in one's crafts makes our local distances something which can be overcome, if not irrelevant. Many of us attend local events and practices just fine. Our Kingdom works just fine, too, distances or not. The individual can decide on whether or not to participate. It doesn't mean that the individual shouldn't have the chance to make their own decisions.

                       Third, administration of monies remains a separate entity for each of the smaller groups. Each will have their own Seneschal, Exchequer, Puirsuivant and either Marshall or MoAS, according to Kingdom Law XIV-200. Individual cantons can still determine their own events, practices, and distribution of monies. A barony is a seperate entity with its own officers and bank account. No canton is required to give money to the barony. 

                       Our efforts toward this entity in this kingdom is not the first. The recent formation of the shell barony of Brendoken in east Ohio has helped pave the way for others here. It works for them so far.

                   

                  A reminder to all. Keep this list civilized, play nice and keep it to the facts. 

                   

                  My Opinions Along with a lot of Facts

                   

                  THL Etienne le Couteau des Roches

                  Puirsuivant, Grey Gargoyles

                  Former Seneschal, Grey Gargoyles

                  and a lot of cookies and former citizenships in and out of our kingdom

                   

                   

                  ------------- Original message from "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>: --------------

                  On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                  > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status
                  > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many groups of
                  > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                  > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                  > others wish to locate the announcement.
                  >
                  > Ian the Green

                  This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.

                  In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who were
                  PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far, the
                  VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote, and
                  you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.

                  In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be< BR>officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
                  threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against would
                  even be counted.

                  Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
                  chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped down
                  as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.

                  A
                  --
                  Qui Tacet Consentit

                • auldefarte
                  Well said. And since Brendoaken was mentioned today, I ll point out that it took them seven years from start to (tenuous) finish, and even then not all of the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 17, 2007
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                    Well said. And since Brendoaken was mentioned today, I'll point out
                    that it took them seven years from start to (tenuous) finish, and
                    even then not all of the groups that started out in the discussion
                    wound up in the final product.

                    -- Grimkirk

                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Philippa of Otterbourne"
                    <otterbourne@...> wrote:
                    > Again, if the individual groups decide to proceed with the idea of
                    > a Barony, it's not going to happen if there is enough opposition at
                    > the time of official polling. However, we won't get anywhere
                    > without proceeding to that stage. We'll remain in limbo with the
                    > idea of a barony popping up every few years. At least if groups
                    > decide to proceed, we can either end the idea based on the polling
                    > indicating there's not enough support or by going forward because
                    > there is enough.
                    >
                    > We can still accomplish things (opposition and support) by not
                    > turning it personal.
                    >
                    > YIS,
                    >
                    > Philippa of Otterbourne
                    > Chatelaine, Shire of Rokkehealden
                  • kateslists@comcast.net
                    ... IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth. IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy. Politeness is a inherant to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                      On 9/17/07, Purple wrote:
                      >  Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
                      IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth.
                       
                      IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy.  Politeness is a inherant to Courtesy.
                       
                      Apparently, you're mileage varies. 
                       
                      Bojei
                    • Tom Scrip
                      We all know that there are more people on the book s then show up for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area, Groups that have there
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                        We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up for
                        a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                        Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                        how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                        the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                        know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)

                        The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                        vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you want
                        to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the answere (I
                        may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to questioning
                        her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a few our Brothers
                        that would also stand to defend it.

                        Aethelwulf of Dover



                        --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "grimkirk" <grimkirk@...> wrote:
                        snip
                        > Nadezda wrote on July 19th:
                        > "Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make the shift to a Canton to
                        > promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in as being in favor by
                        > proxy, and one more abstained."
                        >
                        > Yes, I read Nadezda's post as well, yet I fail to see your point.
                        > While there are a few discrepancies with those numbers
                        (undocumented
                        > dissent), and I was not in attendance, so there does not seem to be
                        > enough to change their general indication at this time. Regardless,
                        > your perception that the group was overwhelmingly in favor of being
                        > demoted to Canton hardly negates my opinion or historical
                        > observations. I suggest (as does Lord Andrew) that the opinions of
                        > those present were simply a sample of the mood du jour of those who
                        > were present; hardly authoritative. Or does everyone actually think
                        > that TGS only has a population of 18-20 people. Or that those who
                        > were not in attendance have no opinion (or are not entitled to
                        > express it)? For a group ostensibly the size of a Province, I'd
                        think
                        > even the Kingdom would find such numbers suspect. And trust me,
                        they
                        > will look deeper.
                        >
                        > You are invited to counter dissent with well reasoned argument.
                        > However, I strongly suggest you not discount dissent on suspect
                        > numbers alone (even if they are in the minority), lest some get it
                        > into their heads that the SCA is something resembling a democracy.
                        It
                        > is not. The SCA's storied existance indicates that such dissent can
                        > be sufficient to derail even the most well intentioned of
                        endeavors.
                        > And being blinded by entusiasm over EARLY 'test results' will
                        > certainly prove a more effective foil than any argument I can make.
                        >
                        > However, as you can see from Nadezda's numbers, there is nothing
                        > indicating any 'dissent', which is why I'm sure you interpreted
                        them
                        > as 'overwhelming'. For the record, Nadezda informed me just last
                        > night that had I been present at that meeting, I would not have
                        been
                        > alone in my dissent. Also, 'willing to shift' is hardly 'in favor
                        > of'. I'm guessing, but I suspect Nadezda most likely felt it was
                        only
                        > important to communicate the general outcome (a relatively harmless
                        > oversight). Clearly I disagree, as it would seem equally important
                        > for the degree of dissention to be made known as well. Of course,
                        > your personal mileage may vary. However, I'm sure the Kingdom will
                        > want to know those numbers as well, should this endeavor even get
                        > that far.
                        >
                        > And none of this really counters anything I said previously. It is
                        > simply my wish to permit everyone to make more informed decisions
                        > when the time comes.
                        >
                        > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
                        > Province of Tre-Girt-Sea
                        >
                        > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                        > > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
                        > > status in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
                        > > groups of Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and
                        > > 2 against. The archives certainly have the announcement in them
                        > > if you and others wish to locate the announcement.
                        > >
                        > > Ian the Green
                        >
                      • Christian Fournier
                        ... Grey Gargoyles, at least, raised that issue well before the vote meeting, and decided that anyone could consider themselves a Gargoyle and thus vote
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                          > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up for
                          > a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                          > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                          > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                          > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                          > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)

                          Grey Gargoyles, at least, raised that issue well before the "vote"
                          meeting, and decided that anyone could consider themselves a Gargoyle
                          and thus vote there, UNLESS they had already voted with another
                          group. Further, anyone who votes at the Gargoyles' meeting is
                          expected not to vote at any other group thereafter.

                          It should be pretty clear, whichever side you favor: no double
                          dipping...

                          For my part, I've held two offices in Grey Gargoyles, though I've
                          always lived in Tree-Girt-Sea. Lately, I've been going to TGS
                          meetings, instead of GG meetings, so I voted at TGS.

                          Christian Fournier
                        • auldefarte
                          Apologies to the list: Wulf, Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I m really getting tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                            Apologies to the list:

                            Wulf,

                            Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really getting
                            tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence) to
                            you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.

                            I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                            this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not meant
                            as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                            And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                            indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.

                            Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where there
                            is none.

                            -- Grimkirk

                            --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                            > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                            > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                            > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                            > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                            > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                            >
                            > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                            > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                            > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                            > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to
                            > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                            > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                            >
                            > Aethelwulf of Dover
                          • David Roland
                            Responded to Privately Ian ... getting ... to ... meant ... there ... area, ... and ... in ... (I ... poll, ... to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                              Responded to Privately

                              Ian

                              --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "auldefarte" <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Apologies to the list:
                              >
                              > Wulf,
                              >
                              > Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really
                              getting
                              > tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence)
                              to
                              > you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.
                              >
                              > I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                              > this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not
                              meant
                              > as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                              > And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                              > indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.
                              >
                              > Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where
                              there
                              > is none.
                              >
                              > -- Grimkirk
                              >
                              > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                              > > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the
                              area,
                              > > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area
                              and
                              > > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents
                              in
                              > > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here?
                              (I
                              > > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                              > >
                              > > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a
                              poll,
                              > > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                              > > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                              > > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin
                              to
                              > > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                              > > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                              > >
                              > > Aethelwulf of Dover
                              >
                            • auldefarte
                              Also Responded to Privately - Grimkirk :)
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                Also Responded to Privately

                                - Grimkirk :)

                                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Responded to Privately
                                >
                                > Ian
                                >
                                > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "auldefarte" <auldefarte@> wrote:
                                > > Apologies to the list:
                              • kevin purtrell
                                Dear Pan Grimkirk, Wulf is overly protective of his spouse. I am overly protective of Phebe. Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana. Andrew
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                  Dear Pan Grimkirk,
                                   
                                  Wulf is overly protective of his spouse.
                                  I am overly protective of Phebe.
                                  Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana.
                                  Andrew McBaine is still overly protective of Sorcha.
                                  Master Robyyan may very well be overly protective of  Sir Fern, but as he writes the software my library uses I don't even want ot go there.
                                   
                                  Sorry you didn't get the memo. ;)
                                   
                                  Kevin Ambrozijwski

                                  auldefarte <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                                  Apologies to the list:

                                  Wulf,

                                  Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really getting
                                  tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence) to
                                  you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.

                                  I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                                  this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not meant
                                  as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                                  And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                                  indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.

                                  Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where there
                                  is none.

                                  -- Grimkirk

                                  --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@.. .> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                                  > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                                  > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                                  > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                                  > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                                  > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                                  >
                                  > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                                  > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                                  > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                                  > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to
                                  > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                                  > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                                  >
                                  > Aethelwulf of Dover



                                  Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                                • Tom Scrip
                                  What can I say, I m just an un trained attack dog. :) wulf ... as he writes the software my library uses I don t even want ot go there.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                    What can I say, I'm just an un trained attack dog. :)

                                    'wulf

                                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, kevin purtrell <krpurtell@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Pan Grimkirk,
                                    >
                                    > Wulf is overly protective of his spouse.
                                    > I am overly protective of Phebe.
                                    > Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana.
                                    > Andrew McBaine is still overly protective of Sorcha.
                                    > Master Robyyan may very well be overly protective of Sir Fern, but
                                    as he writes the software my library uses I don't even want ot go there.
                                    >
                                    > Sorry you didn't get the memo. ;)
                                    >
                                    > Kevin Ambrozijwski
                                    >
                                  • Dolores Becker
                                    What she said. Since when are courtesy and truth mutually exclusive? To be courteous and false is a terrible thing, but to be honest and rude is not much
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 18, 2007
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                                      What she said. 

                                      Since when are courtesy and truth mutually exclusive?  To be courteous and false is a terrible thing, but to be honest and rude is not much better - that is, honesty does not excuse rudeness any more than courtesy excuses falseness.  Is it so difficult to behave in such a manner that both courtesy and truth are served? 

                                      Yes, I know, I and mine have been known to champion rudeness in our day.  We've mellowed.  Playing nice with the other kids now...mostly. } ; )

                                      Living the Code, Serving the Dream

                                      Berngard Solgai, called Moose
                                      Incipient Shire of Foxvale
                                      Dark Horde Moritu

                                      kateslists@... wrote:
                                       
                                      On 9/17/07, Purple wrote:
                                      >  Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
                                      IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth.
                                       
                                      IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy.  Politeness is a inherant to Courtesy.
                                       
                                      Apparently, you're mileage varies. 
                                       
                                      Bojei



                                      ------------------------------------------
                                      The almost right life is nothing at all. The right life is dangerous, open-ended, more questions than answers, a map to undiscovered countries.
                                      -- 'Chasing Shakespeares' by Sarah Smith


                                      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                                      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

                                    • David Valenta
                                      In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a vote on the Barony Issue (tm). We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue. We voted on whether we
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 19, 2007
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                                        In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a "vote" on the Barony Issue
                                        (tm).
                                        We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue.
                                        We voted on whether we wanted to "vote".
                                        We have voted on when we want to "vote".
                                        The actual "vote" will be at our October Business Meeting so our
                                        student population can be included.

                                        Unless we vote otherwise.

                                        Guy Dawkins
                                      • John Adams
                                        -- Grimkirk :) ... From: David Valenta To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 19, 2007
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                                          <grabbing a helmet and looking for the nearest foxhole>
                                          -- Grimkirk :)

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: David Valenta <dvalenta@...>
                                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:18:42 AM
                                          Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Groups Transition Discussion


                                          In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a "vote" on the Barony Issue
                                          (tm).
                                          We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue.
                                          We voted on whether we wanted to "vote".
                                          We have voted on when we want to "vote".
                                          The actual "vote" will be at our October Business Meeting so our
                                          student population can be included.

                                          Unless we vote otherwise.

                                          Guy Dawkins


                                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                          http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
                                        • spdesroches@att.net
                                          ... A couple of points First, the vote taken at that meeting * was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 19, 2007
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                                            -------------- Original message from spdesroches@...: --------------

                                            A couple of points

                                             

                                            First, the vote taken at that meeting * was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey Gargoyles, with discussion amongst those who attended.

                                             

                                            My words, your point taken. see you in October.

                                            *(TGS)

                                            Etienne

                                            .

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