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Midway Plaisance as a Crown Tourney site

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  • kfinegan@ria.net
    Unto the list, greetings from Beatrice. As this has come up in conversation, I went straight to the source, the Chicago Park District. It is possible to get a
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007

      Unto the list, greetings from Beatrice.

      As this has come up in conversation, I went straight to the source, the Chicago Park District.

      It is possible to get a special events permit from the Park District for holding a Tourney on the Midway.  However, there are all sorts of hoops.  We would have to get special permission for Vendors and Tents.  Because of the size of the event, we would need to hire a security company, or arrange for Park District security.  Event hours could only be 6a-11p.  The site would have to be DRY, unless we arranged for an Illinois licensed vendor to provide alcohol (and took out additional insurance).

      However, such permits are not available for next spring until January.  I asked, and there is no way to get a permit before then.

      That said, an athletic event, one day, for 301-800 attendees, with non-profit discount would cost $1200, with a $25 application fee and a $1000 security deposit.  This size event only allows tents up to 15x15.  There are some other options, but that seemed closest to the size and type of event we were discussing, and it gives us a ballpark figure for cost.

      I'm an import from another Kingdom, so a day-only Crown Tourney seems really odd to me.  Our Crown Tourneys in An Tir were four day camping events.  I don't know what's important and what isn't for here in the Middle Kingdom.  I'm willing to help organize, but I would ABSOLUTELY need a Middle Kingdom veteran as a partner and co-organizer.

       

      I hope this helps the discussion.  I think it would be really nice to have a Crown Tournament here in Ayreton.

      In Service,

      Beatrice Domenici Della Campana, AoA

    • Christian Fournier
      ... To further the conversation, I m pretty sure that the Chicago Park District would happily describe our event as a Group event, rather than an Athletic
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
        That said, an athletic event, one day, for 301-800 attendees, with non-profit discount would cost $1200, with a $25 application fee and a $1000 security deposit.  This size event only allows tents up to 15x15.  There are some other options, but that seemed closest to the size and type of event we were discussing, and it gives us a ballpark figure for cost.

        To further the conversation, I'm pretty sure that the Chicago Park District would happily describe our event as a "Group" event, rather than an "Athletic" event, depending on how we prefer to register it.  A "Group" event is meant to have no more than 500 attendees could not have any tents larger than 240 square feet (which is not really big enough to fight in, but neither is 15x15).  Mostly on grounds that our sport is not one that would be recognized as an "Athletic event" by the typical passer-by.  

        The main benefits to reserving as a "Group" event rather than an "Athletic" one is that it's cheaper ($600, before any non-profit discount), and is (in my personal opinion, based on past interactions with Chicago Park District employees) somewhat more likely to be treated with affable and easy-going oversight (500 people getting together for a picnic is one thing.  500 people getting together for a soccer tournament is another...  Despite the "centerpiece" of the Crown Tourney, our event is more like the former than the latter).  

        Alternatively, if we believe that the number of people sitting on the Midway watching and participating in the tournament will be under 201, then we could get a very inexpensive ($150) Group reservation, without requiring outside security.  

        Also, please note that I don't think we shouldn't consider all options (including Glenbrook North, or not submitting a bid)-- merely that I don't think that Ida Noyes (with our without the Midway) should be dismissed out of hand.  
      • Sarafina Sinclair
        Friends, Last time we went to get a permit for the Midway, it was an ordeal. We had to pay $2000 for the permit because they classified us as a sporting group.
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
          Friends,
           
          Last time we went to get a permit for the Midway, it was an ordeal. We had to pay $2000 for the permit because they classified us as a sporting group. We did get the money back once they saw that we hadn't destroyed anything, but the GG site is really better suited to other types of events.
           
          Sarafina :D

          --
          The Honourable Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CDH,CE
          http://ladysarafina.home.att.net
        • Drew Nicholson
          When I was getting married, over ten years ago, Tree-Girt-Sea held an event the day before. It was an official, advertised in the Pale event. It had to be
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
            When I was getting married, over ten years ago, Tree-Girt-Sea held an event the day before.  It was an official, advertised in the Pale event.  It had to be moved at the last second, because the Park District of Chicago doesn't allow the use of weapons -- even simulation ones -- at scheduled events on Park District land.  GG practices don't count, because we're just using the space as part of the public.  No, it doesn't make any sense.  Evzanie was the event steward, so she knows more about it, but it did have to happen.  I'm not suggesting that the same is true today, but someone should check it out and make sure they know -exactly- what we're doing.

            On 7/9/07, Christian Fournier <cf@...> wrote:

            That said, an athletic event, one day, for 301-800 attendees, with non-profit discount would cost $1200, with a $25 application fee and a $1000 security deposit.  This size event only allows tents up to 15x15.  There are some other options, but that seemed closest to the size and type of event we were discussing, and it gives us a ballpark figure for cost.

            To further the conversation, I'm pretty sure that the Chicago Park District would happily describe our event as a "Group" event, rather than an "Athletic" event, depending on how we prefer to register it.  A "Group" event is meant to have no more than 500 attendees could not have any tents larger than 240 square feet (which is not really big enough to fight in, but neither is 15x15).  Mostly on grounds that our sport is not one that would be recognized as an "Athletic event" by the typical passer-by.  

            The main benefits to reserving as a "Group" event rather than an "Athletic" one is that it's cheaper ($600, before any non-profit discount), and is (in my personal opinion, based on past interactions with Chicago Park District employees) somewhat more likely to be treated with affable and easy-going oversight (500 people getting together for a picnic is one thing.  500 people getting together for a soccer tournament is another...  Despite the "centerpiece" of the Crown Tourney, our event is more like the former than the latter).  

            Alternatively, if we believe that the number of people sitting on the Midway watching and participating in the tournament will be under 201, then we could get a very inexpensive ($150) Group reservation, without requiring outside security.  

            Also, please note that I don't think we shouldn't consider all options (including Glenbrook North, or not submitting a bid)-- merely that I don't think that Ida Noyes (with our without the Midway) should be dismissed out of hand.  




            --
            Qui Tacet Consentit
          • Christian Fournier
            ... It s possible that this policy has changed since then: I ve participated in a number of scheduled events using rapiers, longswords and other weapon
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
              When I was getting married, over ten years ago, Tree-Girt-Sea held an event the day before.  It was an official, advertised in the Pale event.  It had to be moved at the last second, because the Park District of Chicago doesn't allow the use of weapons -- even simulation ones -- at scheduled events on Park District land. 

              It's possible that this policy has changed since then: I've participated in a number of scheduled events using rapiers, longswords and other weapon simulators inside the field house at Pulaski Park, organized by the Chicago Swordplay Guild, as well as modern fencing practices at the Broadway Armory (another CPD site).  Worth checking on, in any case-- IF we decide that it's worth pursuing the Midway as part of an event plan (personally, I think that there are University facilities better suited to the tournament ground itself.)  

               XF
            • Peg Cook
              Andrew s wedding wasn t the Park District, it was the Cook County Forest Preserve District. Tho there may be similar issues with the idea of live steel with
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007

                Andrew's wedding wasn't the Park District, it was the Cook County Forest Preserve District. Tho there may be similar issues with the idea of live steel with the Park District.

                I would like to point out one more problem with the Midway idea--parking. Parking is horrible under the best of conditions down there.The Midway doesn't have it's own parking lot, unlike other Chicago Park District properites.  Unless arrangements (probably expensive arrangements) were made with the University, I see that as being a major issue.

                At various points in the past I have looked into other Park District sites, including Lincoln Park at Irving, by the Waveland building, which does have a parking lot and is within walking distance of the outdoor archery range by Belmont Harbor. My personal conclusion (YMMV) was that dealing with the Park District bureaucracy wasn't worth it. Any attempt to rent space at a neighborhood park (like Portage or Welles) means getting the park staff on board also, and in my experience they aren't usually very helpful to outside groups. We used Portage for fighter practice without asking, at least partly because it seemed like a hassle to try to get the park staff on board and it is small enough it didn't matter. There are also probably properties that the CPD won't let us use (more or less) exclusively.

                As an alternate, I'd like to suggest  All Saint's Cathedral http://www.pncc.org/parish_webpage.asp?parish_id=109 on Higgins which I drive past quite frequently. They have a large picnic ground that is available for rental, has some parking and is relatively close to public transportation (he Cumberland Blue Line stop is a healthy walk away) . The website doesn't have a lot of info, but someone could make a phone call and see what the deal is. They might not object to having structures raised. I wish I had the time to get more involved myself...but I'm just throwing out the info for now.

                Evzenie

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Drew Nicholson
                Sent: Jul 9, 2007 2:19 PM
                To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Midway Plaisance as a Crown Tourney site

                When I was getting married, over ten years ago, Tree-Girt-Sea held an event the day before.  It was an official, advertised in the Pale event.  It had to be moved at the last second, because the Park District of Chicago doesn't allow the use of weapons -- even simulation ones -- at scheduled events on Park District land.  GG practices don't count, because we're just using the space as part of the public.  No, it doesn't make any sense.  Evzanie was the event steward, so she knows more about it, but it did have to happen.  I'm not suggesting that the same is true today, but someone should check it out and make sure they know -exactly- what we're doing.

                On 7/9/07, Christian Fournier <cf@klocktower. org> wrote:

                That said, an athletic event, one day, for 301-800 attendees, with non-profit discount would cost $1200, with a $25 application fee and a $1000 security deposit.  This size event only allows tents up to 15x15.  There are some other options, but that seemed closest to the size and type of event we were discussing, and it gives us a ballpark figure for cost.

                To further the conversation, I'm pretty sure that the Chicago Park District would happily describe our event as a "Group" event, rather than an "Athletic" event, depending on how we prefer to register it.  A "Group" event is meant to have no more than 500 attendees could not have any tents larger than 240 square feet (which is not really big enough to fight in, but neither is 15x15).  Mostly on grounds that our sport is not one that would be recognized as an "Athletic event" by the typical passer-by.  

                The main benefits to reserving as a "Group" event rather than an "Athletic" one is that it's cheaper ($600, before any non-profit discount), and is (in my personal opinion, based on past interactions with Chicago Park District employees) somewhat more likely to be treated with affable and easy-going oversight (500 people getting together for a picnic is one thing.  500 people getting together for a soccer tournament is another...  Despite the "centerpiece" of the Crown Tourney, our event is more like the former than the latter).  

                Alternatively, if we believe that the number of people sitting on the Midway watching and participating in the tournament will be under 201, then we could get a very inexpensive ($150) Group reservation, without requiring outside security.  

                Also, please note that I don't think we shouldn't consider all options (including Glenbrook North, or not submitting a bid)-- merely that I don't think that Ida Noyes (with our without the Midway) should be dismissed out of hand.  




                --
                Qui Tacet Consentit

              • Christian Fournier
                ... Again, that s not specifically a Midway issue, as it s also a concern with Ida Noyes. To my knowledge, the University of Chicago doesn t have any
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
                  I would like to point out one more problem with the Midway idea--parking. Parking is horrible under the best of conditions down there.The Midway doesn't have it's own parking lot, unlike other Chicago Park District properites.  Unless arrangements (probably expensive arrangements) were made with the University, I see that as being a major issue.

                  Again, that's not specifically a "Midway" issue, as it's also a concern with Ida Noyes.  To my knowledge, the University of Chicago doesn't have any significant parking that they could rent us, even if they wanted to.  Streetside parking is generally available on 59th street, and both directions of Midway Plaisance.  As I've said, when there are about 300 people there for the Folk Fest, people have to walk a bit (up to about 1/2 mile).  Certainly, that may be considered unacceptable-- just wanted to share my experience about parking near Ida Noyes during a comparably busy event.

                   Christian
                • David Roland
                  At the Business meeting we had yesterday at the Grey Gargoyles we covered a lot of topics. What events would we like to have on site, what costs could we
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
                    At the Business meeting we had yesterday at the Grey Gargoyles we
                    covered a lot of topics. What events would we like to have on site,
                    what costs could we cover, how many events we can have at Ida Noyes
                    in what time span, how to discuss the Barony Transition issue as a
                    Shire fairly, and of course officer reports.

                    Ida Noyes being Grey Gargoyles center of activity for those that
                    don't know. I'm not saying that GG isn't interested. I am saying
                    that there are sites out there that don't have the issues that ours
                    has. Indeed I am sure that there are sites that have entirely their
                    own issues to deal with other than Ida Noyes.

                    Is it Plausable to have Crown, Coronation or R.U.M. at Ida Noyes and
                    Rockafella Chapel? Sure. Lets take a look around the area and see
                    if there are sites whose issues are easier to work with. Not that
                    Ida Noyes sucks. It rocks. Lets, as it has been said, keep it as
                    ONE of the possibilities NOT the ONLY possibility.

                    Ian the Green


                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, Christian Fournier <cf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I would like to point out one more problem with the Midway idea--

                    > > parking. Parking is horrible under the best of conditions down
                    > > there.The Midway doesn't have it's own parking lot, unlike
                    other
                    > > Chicago Park District properites. Unless arrangements
                    (probably
                    > > expensive arrangements) were made with the University, I see
                    that
                    > > as being a major issue.
                    >
                    > Again, that's not specifically a "Midway" issue, as it's also a
                    > concern with Ida Noyes. To my knowledge, the University of
                    Chicago
                    > doesn't have any significant parking that they could rent us, even
                    if
                    > they wanted to. Streetside parking is generally available on
                    59th
                    > street, and both directions of Midway Plaisance. As I've said,
                    when
                    > there are about 300 people there for the Folk Fest, people have
                    to
                    > walk a bit (up to about 1/2 mile). Certainly, that may be
                    considered
                    > unacceptable-- just wanted to share my experience about parking
                    near
                    > Ida Noyes during a comparably busy event.
                    >
                    > Christian
                    >
                  • rdpierce@pobox.com
                    ... The Midway rental had both a security deposit, which I remember was between $1000-$2000. However, the rental fee itself was only a few hundred, if I
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
                      "Sarafina Sinclair" said:

                      >Last time we went to get a permit for the Midway, it was an ordeal. We had
                      >to pay $2000 for the permit because they classified us as a sporting group.
                      >We did get the money back once they saw that we hadn't destroyed anything,
                      >but the GG site is really better suited to other types of events.

                      The Midway rental had both a security deposit, which I remember was between
                      $1000-$2000. However, the rental fee itself was only a few hundred, if
                      I recall, and the security deposit did come back. We borrowed the money for
                      the security deposit from Kingdom, and all worked out well. Now the Park
                      District might have increased cost, but it was otherwise pretty
                      straightforward. The only big restriction is no tents of any usable size.
                      (But again, I remember we set up the Gargoyles pavilion, which fell
                      outside the square footage limit, on the Ida Noyes lawn, which is not
                      Park District property.

                      In service,
                      Ryan Mackenzie
                    • Metylda
                      Has anyone talked to Liam about using Glenbrook North before people just assume we can use it? There may be sporting or other events going on that prevent us
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
                        Has anyone talked to Liam about using Glenbrook North
                        before people just assume we can use it? There may be
                        sporting or other events going on that prevent us from
                        using that site.

                        Metylda


                        > Also, please note that I don't think we shouldn't
                        > consider all
                        > options (including Glenbrook North, or not
                        > submitting a bid)-- merely
                        > that I don't think that Ida Noyes (with our without
                        > the Midway)
                        > should be dismissed out of hand.
                        >


                        There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

                        *****

                        Me þæt wyrd gewæf



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                      • AlexdeSet@aol.com
                        Greetings!      People have spoken to Liam. We have found out that he will not be able to find out if the school will be available for the dates desired
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
                          Greetings!
                               People have spoken to Liam. We have found out that he will not be able to find out if the school will be available for the dates desired until the start of the new school year.
                          Is mise le meas,
                          Alexander de Seton


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Metylda <bamf505@...>
                          To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:24 am
                          Subject: Re: [Ayreton] Midway Plaisance as a Crown Tourney site

                          Has anyone talked to Liam about using Glenbrook North
                          before people just assume we can use it? There may be
                          sporting or other events going on that prevent us from
                          using that site.

                          Metylda

                          > Also, please note that I don't think we shouldn't
                          > consider all
                          > options (including Glenbrook North, or not
                          > submitting a bid)-- merely
                          > that I don't think that Ida Noyes (with our without
                          > the Midway)
                          > should be dismissed out of hand.
                          >

                          There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

                          *****

                          Me þæt wyrd gewæf

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