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Groups Transition Discussion

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  • ayretontownecryer
    Greetings unto the populace of the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and unto all others to whom these presents may come, We seem to have reached the point where
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 3, 2007
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      Greetings unto the populace of the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton
      and unto all others to whom these presents may come,

      We seem to have reached the point where the conversational ground is
      becoming well plowed so to speak. We now have some of the same
      people saying the same thing in different ways. People are
      discussing rumor as if it were fact and whilst it may be "on good
      word" rumor it is still merely rumor and until we get an official
      word from an official person with the official authority to give
      official word it shall stay as rumor.

      We have started to discuss two (well three) transitional options.

      Barony which has several options. Those groups that wish to join
      get subsumed into one Barony; One group goes Barony and others
      attach themselves to it; The groups that wish it join together to
      create a Shell Barony, keeping their individual identities AND
      getting to play in a Barony. Barony would include at most all the
      groups currently in the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and not
      include any groups outside of it.

      Principality. This could include just those groups in the Area (NOT
      HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and up to the entire Midlands Region.

      Problems we are facing.

      1) Simply put we do NOT have enough formal information on the
      subject. It seems to me that we would all benefit from creating
      contact with those officers of the Middle Kingdom who have the
      authority to discuss and inform us of what "the real deal" is.
      Until we do this, we have well intentioned but still unofficial
      rumor and conjecture based on rumor.

      I strongly recommend that everyone who participates in this
      discussion please read the documents associated with baronial
      advancement and polling therefor as well as the documents associated
      with polling for a Baron and/or Baroness. They are in the files
      secion.

      If people would like I can locate and make contact with the
      appropriate Kingdom Level Officer(s) and see if they are able to
      give us the information we are lacking in a format accesable to
      everyone interested.

      2) Tempers seem to be beginning to fray potentially. You may
      personally have a strong opinion on any given topic of this
      discussion. Thats a good thing. Please try to remember though that
      you may be the only or just one a few who hold that opinion.
      Repeating yourself, even in different ways, creates an unhealthy
      environment for discussion. Also please try to voice your opinions
      with, "I feel" and "I believe" and that will help clue everyone else
      that it is your opinion not a statement of fact. And remember, we
      can, and should in this discussion, agree to disagree.

      Ian the Green
      Ayreton Towne Cryer
    • James McAdams
      ... I m curious - has the idea of extending the Province been rejected by the residents of Tree-Girt-Sea, or is there a different reason it was striken from
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 3, 2007
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        ayretontownecryer wrote:

        >We have started to discuss two (well three) transitional options.
        >
        >Barony which has several options. Those groups that wish to join
        >get subsumed into one Barony; One group goes Barony and others
        >attach themselves to it; The groups that wish it join together to
        >create a Shell Barony, keeping their individual identities AND
        >getting to play in a Barony. Barony would include at most all the
        >groups currently in the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and not
        >include any groups outside of it.
        >
        >Principality. This could include just those groups in the Area (NOT
        >HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and up to the entire Midlands Region.
        >
        >
        >
        I'm curious - has the idea of extending the Province been rejected
        by the residents of Tree-Girt-Sea, or is there a different reason it was
        striken from the possible courses?

        Xavier
      • kevin purtrell
        The main reason we have so many groups in the area to begin with has to do with travel times. The groups may be close geographically but because of the way
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
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          The main reason we have so many groups in the area to begin with has to do with travel times. The groups may be close geographically but because of the way highways are laid out and traffic patterns. It may take an hour and a half to two hours to drive from, say, Tree-Girt-Sea to Vanished Woods or Ravens Lake depending on the time of day. This is one of the problems we had when we tried rotating fighting practices. People from one end of Ayreton didn't want to go to the other end because their total travel time was longer than fighting practice was.
           
          Kevin Ambrozijwski, speaking for himself, not as an Officer.

          James McAdams <jmcadams@...> wrote:
          ayretontownecryer wrote:

          >We have started to discuss two (well three) transitional options.
          >
          >Barony which has several options. Those groups that wish to join
          >get subsumed into one Barony; One group goes Barony and others
          >attach themselves to it; The groups that wish it join together to
          >create a Shell Barony, keeping their individual identities AND
          >getting to play in a Barony. Barony would include at most all the
          >groups currently in the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and not
          >include any groups outside of it.
          >
          >Principality. This could include just those groups in the Area (NOT
          >HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and up to the entire Midlands Region.
          >
          >
          >
          I'm curious - has the idea of extending the Province been rejected
          by the residents of Tree-Girt-Sea, or is there a different reason it was
          striken from the possible courses?

          Xavier



          Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
          Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

        • ayretontownecryer
          Group Distances Yes, the travel time between groups can be long. We currently have activities, practices, events and fighter practices in various areas and
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
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            Group Distances

            Yes, the travel time between groups can be long.  We currently have activities, practices, events and fighter practices in various areas and some things happening in more than one location such as fighter practices.

            TGS Expansion

            This is the concept that TGS stays a Province and each group becomes a Riding.  The question was asked why wasn't this included in the possibilities.  Short answer is because that is first an internal question to be answered by the defined members of TGS first.  We can't force them to accept the other groups and they can't force the other groups to accept them and to my knowledge noone is trying to do either.

            The Process

            Thanks to The Honorable Lady Sarafina Sinclair.  At the beginning of this discussion I provided the link and the documents for the process of Advancement/Staying the same.   I think this discussion has proven one thing and that it is that people are interested in this question and hold strong opinions.  I hope everyone is now more educated and knowledgeable now as well.  Indeed yes, the next step is to poll your own groups at business meetings.

            My humble suggestion is again that we do not have enough actual knowledge and that getting an/the official kingdom transition officer involved now so that we may garner more and more accurate information so each group may make their own well edcuation decisions.  That said if we do wish as the Ayreton Area to become a Barony with more than just one group those groups will need to communicate their intentions to each other as well.  Bring this up at your business meetings, go with your opinions, stand strong in them but do not attempt to force anyone else to follow your opinion.  If you seem to be the only one talking I recommend to you that others may wish to speak as well and so say your peace and let others as well and well, be peaceful about it.

            Of course the discussion is welcome to continue here as are inquiries and announcements.

            Ian the Green

            Ayreton Towne Cryer

          • grimkirk
            In a belated response to the original question from James McAdams, which I hadn t seen answered directly: I believe the concern about extending the Province
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 16 9:09 PM
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              In a belated response to the original question from James McAdams,
              which I hadn't seen answered directly:

              I believe the concern about 'extending the Province' falls directly
              in line with having the Province elevated to Baronial status, and was
              subject to the notion that such a move would presumably offend all
              other participating groups who would be subsumed under a
              new 'Province (or Barony) of TGS'. The current notion as has been
              explained to me (as recently as this evening) is that to go Barony,
              everyone should 'have some skin' in it (liberal paraphrase),
              including TGS.

              --

              <start opinion>
              However, as I see it, TGS would be the only group actually risking
              any 'skin' (status). For every other group in the area, with the
              exception of willingly surrendering their indenpendence, and possibly
              some identity, it would be (in fact) either a lateral transition to
              Canton, or up to full status (from incipient).

              Thusfar, the whole 'move to Barony' status has been proffered (to me)
              principally as a mechanism to increase 'unity' amongst the
              Chicagoland chapters. However, there seems to be nothing in such a
              move that enhances unification of anything other than bank accounts.
              To my mind, there doesn't seem to be anything keeping these groups
              from playing and working together nicely now, so I fail to see how
              collectivizing as Barony would improve that concept.

              Yes, a Baronial structure would permit the implementation of
              local 'pomp and circumstance' by the adoption of local royals, and
              the creation of local awards for recognition of local efforts /
              activities. But these would not seem to be sufficient reasons alone
              to pursue this inequitable transition.

              As I've ever understood it, for the longest time a large part of the
              notion behind TGS being a Province was that the residents held a fair
              amount of disdain for local royalty and the politics that invariably
              follow, no matter how you try to legislate the selection process. I
              mean, look at this very process here. Already, there's been talk
              of 'keeping the baronial hats from both being from the same group'.
              We're supposed to be ascribing to a monarchal structure (ruling from
              the top down, for those who haven't figured that out), and yet
              there's this notion that 'voting' and 'legislating' from the local
              level is an acceptible idea. If that's the case, this whole process
              is doomed from the start. This isn't the 4H-club, folks.

              Also, the collectivizing of geographically disparate groups (which,
              as Kevin already pointed out, was the whole reason that there are
              multiple groups in the Chicagoland area) only places an even greater
              burden upon the collective populace to have to mobilize to even
              greater lengths to participate in the larger unit, especially if
              individual recognition is any part of the premise for transition. To
              presume that the concept that groups should be no closer than one
              hour from each other (formerly '60 miles') is a flawed concept hasn't
              taken a look at gas prices lately, or didn't pay for the car they're
              driving. Kevin's already pointed out that even in the noble group
              of 'Ayreton' that some (many?) don't care to attend another group's
              practice because of the round trip travel times. How is going Barony
              going to change that? In short, it won't.

              I say, if the groups of Chicagoland wish to respect TGS's history and
              acknowledge its prominence as the premier group of the Middle
              Kingdom, and to promote TGS to Baronial status and join it as
              cantons, fine. Else, keep 'Ayreton' just the way it is. A noble
              concept, which, in itself, promotes a communal/regional identity that
              puts no 'official' burden upon anyone.
              <end opinion>

              Just my three cents for the evening.

              -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
              Former Senschal, Rokkehealdan
              Citizen, Tre-Girt-Sea
              Former Citizen, Barony of the Flame (Louisville, KY)
              Former Citizen, Barony of V'tavia (Wichita, KS),
              Pricipality/Kingdom of Calontir
              Former Citizen, Barony of Caerthe (Denver, CO),
              Principality/Kingdom of Outlands

              --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, kevin purtrell <krpurtell@...> wrote:
              >
              > The main reason we have so many groups in the area to begin with
              has to do with travel times. The groups may be close geographically
              but because of the way highways are laid out and traffic patterns. It
              may take an hour and a half to two hours to drive from, say, Tree-
              Girt-Sea to Vanished Woods or Ravens Lake depending on the time of
              day. This is one of the problems we had when we tried rotating
              fighting practices. People from one end of Ayreton didn't want to go
              to the other end because their total travel time was longer than
              fighting practice was.
              >
              > Kevin Ambrozijwski, speaking for himself, not as an Officer.
              >
              > James McAdams <jmcadams@...> wrote:
              > ayretontownecryer wrote:
              >
              > >We have started to discuss two (well three) transitional options.
              > >
              > >Barony which has several options. Those groups that wish to join
              > >get subsumed into one Barony; One group goes Barony and others
              > >attach themselves to it; The groups that wish it join together to
              > >create a Shell Barony, keeping their individual identities AND
              > >getting to play in a Barony. Barony would include at most all the
              > >groups currently in the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and not
              > >include any groups outside of it.
              > >
              > >Principality. This could include just those groups in the Area
              (NOT
              > >HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and up to the entire Midlands Region.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > I'm curious - has the idea of extending the Province been rejected
              > by the residents of Tree-Girt-Sea, or is there a different reason
              it was
              > striken from the possible courses?
              >
              > Xavier
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
              > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
              >
            • David Roland
              The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status in favor of an overarching Barony
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 17 7:18 AM
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                The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status
                in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many groups of
                Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                others wish to locate the announcement.

                Ian the Green

                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "grimkirk" <grimkirk@...> wrote:
                >
                > In a belated response to the original question from James McAdams,
                > which I hadn't seen answered directly:
                >
                > I believe the concern about 'extending the Province' falls
                directly
                > in line with having the Province elevated to Baronial status, and
                was
                > subject to the notion that such a move would presumably offend all
                > other participating groups who would be subsumed under a
                > new 'Province (or Barony) of TGS'. The current notion as has been
                > explained to me (as recently as this evening) is that to go
                Barony,
                > everyone should 'have some skin' in it (liberal paraphrase),
                > including TGS.
                >
                > --
                >
                > <start opinion>
                > However, as I see it, TGS would be the only group actually risking
                > any 'skin' (status). For every other group in the area, with the
                > exception of willingly surrendering their indenpendence, and
                possibly
                > some identity, it would be (in fact) either a lateral transition
                to
                > Canton, or up to full status (from incipient).
                >
                > Thusfar, the whole 'move to Barony' status has been proffered (to
                me)
                > principally as a mechanism to increase 'unity' amongst the
                > Chicagoland chapters. However, there seems to be nothing in such a
                > move that enhances unification of anything other than bank
                accounts.
                > To my mind, there doesn't seem to be anything keeping these groups
                > from playing and working together nicely now, so I fail to see how
                > collectivizing as Barony would improve that concept.
                >
                > Yes, a Baronial structure would permit the implementation of
                > local 'pomp and circumstance' by the adoption of local royals, and
                > the creation of local awards for recognition of local efforts /
                > activities. But these would not seem to be sufficient reasons
                alone
                > to pursue this inequitable transition.
                >
                > As I've ever understood it, for the longest time a large part of
                the
                > notion behind TGS being a Province was that the residents held a
                fair
                > amount of disdain for local royalty and the politics that
                invariably
                > follow, no matter how you try to legislate the selection process.
                I
                > mean, look at this very process here. Already, there's been talk
                > of 'keeping the baronial hats from both being from the same
                group'.
                > We're supposed to be ascribing to a monarchal structure (ruling
                from
                > the top down, for those who haven't figured that out), and yet
                > there's this notion that 'voting' and 'legislating' from the local
                > level is an acceptible idea. If that's the case, this whole
                process
                > is doomed from the start. This isn't the 4H-club, folks.
                >
                > Also, the collectivizing of geographically disparate groups
                (which,
                > as Kevin already pointed out, was the whole reason that there are
                > multiple groups in the Chicagoland area) only places an even
                greater
                > burden upon the collective populace to have to mobilize to even
                > greater lengths to participate in the larger unit, especially if
                > individual recognition is any part of the premise for transition.
                To
                > presume that the concept that groups should be no closer than one
                > hour from each other (formerly '60 miles') is a flawed concept
                hasn't
                > taken a look at gas prices lately, or didn't pay for the car
                they're
                > driving. Kevin's already pointed out that even in the noble group
                > of 'Ayreton' that some (many?) don't care to attend another
                group's
                > practice because of the round trip travel times. How is going
                Barony
                > going to change that? In short, it won't.
                >
                > I say, if the groups of Chicagoland wish to respect TGS's history
                and
                > acknowledge its prominence as the premier group of the Middle
                > Kingdom, and to promote TGS to Baronial status and join it as
                > cantons, fine. Else, keep 'Ayreton' just the way it is. A noble
                > concept, which, in itself, promotes a communal/regional identity
                that
                > puts no 'official' burden upon anyone.
                > <end opinion>
                >
                > Just my three cents for the evening.
                >
                > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
                > Former Senschal, Rokkehealdan
                > Citizen, Tre-Girt-Sea
                > Former Citizen, Barony of the Flame (Louisville, KY)
                > Former Citizen, Barony of V'tavia (Wichita, KS),
                > Pricipality/Kingdom of Calontir
                > Former Citizen, Barony of Caerthe (Denver, CO),
                > Principality/Kingdom of Outlands
                >
                > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, kevin purtrell <krpurtell@> wrote:
                > >
                > > The main reason we have so many groups in the area to begin with
                > has to do with travel times. The groups may be close
                geographically
                > but because of the way highways are laid out and traffic patterns.
                It
                > may take an hour and a half to two hours to drive from, say, Tree-
                > Girt-Sea to Vanished Woods or Ravens Lake depending on the time of
                > day. This is one of the problems we had when we tried rotating
                > fighting practices. People from one end of Ayreton didn't want to
                go
                > to the other end because their total travel time was longer than
                > fighting practice was.
                > >
                > > Kevin Ambrozijwski, speaking for himself, not as an Officer.
                > >
                > > James McAdams <jmcadams@> wrote:
                > > ayretontownecryer wrote:
                > >
                > > >We have started to discuss two (well three) transitional
                options.
                > > >
                > > >Barony which has several options. Those groups that wish to
                join
                > > >get subsumed into one Barony; One group goes Barony and others
                > > >attach themselves to it; The groups that wish it join together
                to
                > > >create a Shell Barony, keeping their individual identities AND
                > > >getting to play in a Barony. Barony would include at most all
                the
                > > >groups currently in the Area (NOT HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and not
                > > >include any groups outside of it.
                > > >
                > > >Principality. This could include just those groups in the Area
                > (NOT
                > > >HOUSEHOLD) of Ayreton and up to the entire Midlands Region.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > I'm curious - has the idea of extending the Province been
                rejected
                > > by the residents of Tree-Girt-Sea, or is there a different
                reason
                > it was
                > > striken from the possible courses?
                > >
                > > Xavier
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                > >
                >
              • Drew Nicholson
                ... This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story. In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who were PRESENT at the
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 17 8:11 AM
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                  On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                  > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status
                  > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many groups of
                  > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                  > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                  > others wish to locate the announcement.
                  >
                  > Ian the Green

                  This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.

                  In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who were
                  PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far, the
                  VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote, and
                  you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.

                  In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be
                  officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
                  threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against would
                  even be counted.

                  Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
                  chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped down
                  as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.


                  A
                  --
                  Qui Tacet Consentit
                • Scribesquire@comcast.net
                  Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it. If you think it could even vaguely be taken
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 17 8:56 AM
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                    Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it.  If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
                     
                    Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
                     
                    Henry of Exeter
                     
                    -------------- Original message --------------
                    From: "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>

                    On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                    > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status
                    > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many groups of
                    > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                    > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                    > others wish to locate the announcement.
                    >
                    > Ian the Green

                    This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.

                    In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who were
                    PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far, the
                    VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote, and
                    you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.

                    In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be< BR>officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
                    threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against would
                    even be counted.

                    Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
                    chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped down
                    as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.

                    A
                    --
                    Qui Tacet Consentit

                  • Drew Nicholson
                    ... Truth does not take a backseat to politeness. There are people opposed to this idea. Cooperation is not necessarily their goal. Opposition is. If I
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 17 9:04 AM
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                      On 9/17/07, Scribesquire@... <Scribesquire@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it. If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
                      >
                      > Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
                      >

                      Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.

                      There are people opposed to this idea. Cooperation is not necessarily
                      their goal. Opposition is. If I intend an email to be insulting --
                      and this one was clearly not -- you would know it.


                      A
                      --
                      Qui Tacet Consentit
                    • grimkirk
                      With Henry s recent sound advice in mind, and noting that this response has been in progress prior to the last few posts: Nadezda wrote on July 19th: Of 18
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 17 9:14 AM
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                        With Henry's recent sound advice in mind, and noting that this
                        response has been in progress prior to the last few posts:

                        Nadezda wrote on July 19th:
                        "Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make the shift to a Canton to
                        promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in as being in favor by
                        proxy, and one more abstained."

                        Yes, I read Nadezda's post as well, yet I fail to see your point.
                        While there are a few discrepancies with those numbers (undocumented
                        dissent), and I was not in attendance, so there does not seem to be
                        enough to change their general indication at this time. Regardless,
                        your perception that the group was overwhelmingly in favor of being
                        demoted to Canton hardly negates my opinion or historical
                        observations. I suggest (as does Lord Andrew) that the opinions of
                        those present were simply a sample of the mood du jour of those who
                        were present; hardly authoritative. Or does everyone actually think
                        that TGS only has a population of 18-20 people. Or that those who
                        were not in attendance have no opinion (or are not entitled to
                        express it)? For a group ostensibly the size of a Province, I'd think
                        even the Kingdom would find such numbers suspect. And trust me, they
                        will look deeper.

                        You are invited to counter dissent with well reasoned argument.
                        However, I strongly suggest you not discount dissent on suspect
                        numbers alone (even if they are in the minority), lest some get it
                        into their heads that the SCA is something resembling a democracy. It
                        is not. The SCA's storied existance indicates that such dissent can
                        be sufficient to derail even the most well intentioned of endeavors.
                        And being blinded by entusiasm over EARLY 'test results' will
                        certainly prove a more effective foil than any argument I can make.

                        However, as you can see from Nadezda's numbers, there is nothing
                        indicating any 'dissent', which is why I'm sure you interpreted them
                        as 'overwhelming'. For the record, Nadezda informed me just last
                        night that had I been present at that meeting, I would not have been
                        alone in my dissent. Also, 'willing to shift' is hardly 'in favor
                        of'. I'm guessing, but I suspect Nadezda most likely felt it was only
                        important to communicate the general outcome (a relatively harmless
                        oversight). Clearly I disagree, as it would seem equally important
                        for the degree of dissention to be made known as well. Of course,
                        your personal mileage may vary. However, I'm sure the Kingdom will
                        want to know those numbers as well, should this endeavor even get
                        that far.

                        And none of this really counters anything I said previously. It is
                        simply my wish to permit everyone to make more informed decisions
                        when the time comes.

                        -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
                        Province of Tre-Girt-Sea

                        --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                        > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
                        > status in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
                        > groups of Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and
                        > 2 against. The archives certainly have the announcement in them
                        > if you and others wish to locate the announcement.
                        >
                        > Ian the Green
                      • David Roland
                        Purple, I am still the Ayreton Towne Cryer, and I have a deputy, please make sure to have your facts correct. The official vote for the Province was taken at a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 17 9:31 AM
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                          Purple,

                          I am still the Ayreton Towne Cryer, and I have a deputy, please make
                          sure to have your facts correct.

                          The official vote for the Province was taken at a TGS business
                          meeting and the Seneschal posted the results of same.

                          Message can be found at:

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/message/1349

                          The body of the message is:

                          "As was suggested during the town meeting at Border Skirmish,
                          Tree-Girt-Sea discussed the aspect of what an shell barony would mean
                          to us during our recent moot. As was pointed out during the town
                          meeting, being a Province currently, Tree-Girt-Sea would be most
                          impacted by a status change. Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make
                          the shift to a Canton to promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in
                          as being in favor by proxy, and one more abstained.

                          -Nadezda
                          TGS Seneschal"

                          It is and was my understanding that this was and is an official vote
                          conducted as official business of the Province of Tree Girt Sea and
                          I have done nothing more than report same. I do know that this
                          meeting and the discussion of the meeting was published well in
                          advance through the normal means of doing so in the Province and so
                          everyone who wished to be aware of the meeting was. Those who chose
                          to attend did. It is this post that I was refering to and
                          referencing as official business already announced on the list by
                          the Provinve of Tree Girt Sea's Seneschal. Not personal opinion.

                          The polling will reveal what the polling will reveal should the area
                          get to the point of polling. No chickens were counted before they
                          were hatched by myself.

                          As the Ayreton Towne Cryer I try very hard to maintain my personal
                          opinion as seperate from my work as the Ayreton Towne Cryer. In
                          that position a "favorable opinion voiced" is one that is respectful
                          of all on the list including the person directly addressed, phased
                          thoughtfully and when discussing facts can cite the source and
                          quotes them correctly.

                          Further, Purple, you are making a personal attack and as such are
                          violating the rules of this list. In this case the attack is on
                          myself one of the owners and moderators of the list by directly
                          calling me a liar and putting words in others mouths because I
                          simply reported a fact.

                          As I am intimately involved with this violation of the rules, and in
                          an effort to maintain my neutrality as the Ayreton Towne Cryer, one
                          of the owners and moderators of this list, I shall be handing off
                          the decision of how to handle this infraction to the other
                          moderators/owners of this list.

                          Ian the Green
                          Ayreton Towne Cryer


                          --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                          > > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
                          status
                          > > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
                          groups of
                          > > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                          > > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                          > > others wish to locate the announcement.
                          > >
                          > > Ian the Green
                          >
                          > This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.
                          >
                          > In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who
                          were
                          > PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far,
                          the
                          > VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote,
                          and
                          > you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.
                          >
                          > In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be
                          > officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
                          > threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against
                          would
                          > even be counted.
                          >
                          > Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
                          > chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped
                          down
                          > as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.
                          >
                          >
                          > A
                          > --
                          > Qui Tacet Consentit
                          >
                        • Scribesquire@comcast.net
                          Responded to privately. Henry of Exeter ... From: Drew Nicholson ... Truth does not take a backseat to politeness. There are people
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 17 9:35 AM
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                            Responded to privately.
                             
                            Henry of Exeter
                             
                            -------------- Original message --------------
                            From: "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>

                            On 9/17/07, Scribesquire@ comcast.net <Scribesquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
                            >
                            > Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it. If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
                            >
                            > Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
                            >

                            Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.

                            There are people opposed to this idea. Cooperation is not necessarily
                            their goal. Opposition is. If I intend an email to be insulting --
                            and this one was clearly not -- you would know it.

                            A
                            --
                            Qui Tacet Consentit

                          • Philippa of Otterbourne
                            ... I agree truth is important but it can be conveyed tactfully and politely without taking a backseat. Perhaps your intention wasn t to be insulting but it
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 17 9:43 AM
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                              On 9/17/07, Drew Nicholson <drewishdrewid@...> wrote:
                              On 9/17/07, Scribesquire@... < Scribesquire@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. However, I woudld suggest that everyone read thier email before sending it.  If you think it could even vaguely be taken as insulting, reword it or do not send it.
                              >
                              > Any spirit of cooperation will lose ground if insults or rudeness begin clogging up everyones inbox.
                              >

                              >Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
                               
                               
                              I agree truth is important but it can be conveyed tactfully and politely without taking a backseat.  Perhaps your intention wasn't to be insulting but it wasn't perceived as such by me and apparently others.  I do hope we don't actually find out when your intent IS to insult if your recent response was not meant to.

                              There are people opposed to this idea.  Cooperation is not necessarily
                              their goal.  Opposition is.  If I intend an email to be insulting --
                              and this one was clearly not -- you would know it.
                               
                              I think there is alot of support for this idea, as well as opposition.  I think everyone is well aware that the groups would have to be officially polled in order to become a barony.  My understanding is that these votes being done at the groups business meetings are just a way to determine if there is enough support to move forward or not.  If the TGS vote was taken at at time when only 20 people could be there (which sounds like a good turnout for most business meetings although I'm involved with a smaller group) then either the official polling will show the lack of support or perhaps you might want to consider a group poll through email?
                               
                              I just think by turning on each other, we serve no purpose to either derail the process or continue it.  It merely creates dissention among members and indicates that despite recent measures we really can't even try to work together. 
                               
                              Again, if the individual groups decide to proceed with the idea of a Barony, it's not going to happen if there is enough opposition at the time of official polling.  However, we won't get anywhere without proceeding to that stage.  We'll remain in limbo with the idea of a barony popping up every few years. At least if groups decide to proceed, we can either end the idea based on the polling indicating there's not enough support or by going forward because there is enough.
                               
                              We can still accomplish things (opposition and support) by not turning it personal. 
                               
                              YIS,
                               
                              Philippa of Otterbourne
                              Chatelaine, Shire of Rokkehealden
                               
                               
                               

                               
                            • nadezda_zezastrizl
                              Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn t feel I needed to explain that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious. I noted the proxies
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 17 9:47 AM
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                                Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn't feel I needed to explain
                                that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious.
                                I noted the proxies separately, in part to show that I was attempting
                                to hear all those expressing a concern about the Province's future.
                                As for those who didn't show up for that meeting or didn't weigh in, I
                                can only assume they had no opinion, or at least trusted those who did
                                show up to weigh in for them. There's not much else I can do.
                                -Nadezda
                              • John Adams
                                Nope, you re right. Not much you can do about no shows. ;) -- G ... From: nadezda_zezastrizl To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 17 9:51 AM
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                                  Nope, you're right. Not much you can do about no shows. ;)

                                  -- G

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: nadezda_zezastrizl <nadezda_z@...>
                                  To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:47:11 AM
                                  Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Groups Transition Discussion


                                  Last I checked 15 from 18 left 3. I didn't feel I needed to explain
                                  that those 3 were dissenters, as I felt that was rather obvious.
                                  I noted the proxies separately, in part to show that I was attempting
                                  to hear all those expressing a concern about the Province's future.
                                  As for those who didn't show up for that meeting or didn't weigh in, I
                                  can only assume they had no opinion, or at least trusted those who did
                                  show up to weigh in for them. There's not much else I can do.
                                  -Nadezda



                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                • spdesroches@att.net
                                  A couple of points First, the vote taken at that meeting was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 17 10:04 AM
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                                    A couple of points

                                     

                                    First, the vote taken at that meeting was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey Gargoyles, with discussion amongst those who attended. The results had a similar outcome and percentage ratio in the voting of those who attended, namely overwhelmingly in favor of proceeding with the joining into a shell barony.

                                          The process requires initial public discussion on a face-to-face basis by those who care to attend a business meeting. Democracy and progress require attendance and actual participation, not just media screed. If you want a viable working opinion, get to your group's business meeting and vote.

                                         Second, our size is no real or mature barrier to the creation, administration or participation in a viable shell barony. Inspiration and dedication to excellence in one's crafts makes our local distances something which can be overcome, if not irrelevant. Many of us attend local events and practices just fine. Our Kingdom works just fine, too, distances or not. The individual can decide on whether or not to participate. It doesn't mean that the individual shouldn't have the chance to make their own decisions.

                                         Third, administration of monies remains a separate entity for each of the smaller groups. Each will have their own Seneschal, Exchequer, Puirsuivant and either Marshall or MoAS, according to Kingdom Law XIV-200. Individual cantons can still determine their own events, practices, and distribution of monies. A barony is a seperate entity with its own officers and bank account. No canton is required to give money to the barony. 

                                         Our efforts toward this entity in this kingdom is not the first. The recent formation of the shell barony of Brendoken in east Ohio has helped pave the way for others here. It works for them so far.

                                     

                                    A reminder to all. Keep this list civilized, play nice and keep it to the facts. 

                                     

                                    My Opinions Along with a lot of Facts

                                     

                                    THL Etienne le Couteau des Roches

                                    Puirsuivant, Grey Gargoyles

                                    Former Seneschal, Grey Gargoyles

                                    and a lot of cookies and former citizenships in and out of our kingdom

                                     

                                     

                                    ------------- Original message from "Drew Nicholson" <drewishdrewid@...>: --------------

                                    On 9/17/07, David Roland <mystborne@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                                    > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton status
                                    > in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many groups of
                                    > Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and 2 against.
                                    > The archives certainly have the announcement in them if you and
                                    > others wish to locate the announcement.
                                    >
                                    > Ian the Green

                                    This is simply not true. and you should stop pushing this story.

                                    In fact, it was only members of the Province of Tree Girt Sea who were
                                    PRESENT at the meeting -- less than 20 people -- voted. By far, the
                                    VAST majority of the Province who were not present did not vote, and
                                    you may therefore NOT attribute favorable opinions to them.

                                    In any transition, the entire population of the Province would be< BR>officially polled, and there could possibly even be a viability
                                    threshold required to meet before any votes in favor or against would
                                    even be counted.

                                    Do not put words into other people's mouths, and do not count your
                                    chickens before they are hatched. You did it before you stepped down
                                    as "Areyton Cryer" and you're doing it now.

                                    A
                                    --
                                    Qui Tacet Consentit

                                  • auldefarte
                                    Well said. And since Brendoaken was mentioned today, I ll point out that it took them seven years from start to (tenuous) finish, and even then not all of the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 17 3:11 PM
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                                      Well said. And since Brendoaken was mentioned today, I'll point out
                                      that it took them seven years from start to (tenuous) finish, and
                                      even then not all of the groups that started out in the discussion
                                      wound up in the final product.

                                      -- Grimkirk

                                      --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Philippa of Otterbourne"
                                      <otterbourne@...> wrote:
                                      > Again, if the individual groups decide to proceed with the idea of
                                      > a Barony, it's not going to happen if there is enough opposition at
                                      > the time of official polling. However, we won't get anywhere
                                      > without proceeding to that stage. We'll remain in limbo with the
                                      > idea of a barony popping up every few years. At least if groups
                                      > decide to proceed, we can either end the idea based on the polling
                                      > indicating there's not enough support or by going forward because
                                      > there is enough.
                                      >
                                      > We can still accomplish things (opposition and support) by not
                                      > turning it personal.
                                      >
                                      > YIS,
                                      >
                                      > Philippa of Otterbourne
                                      > Chatelaine, Shire of Rokkehealden
                                    • kateslists@comcast.net
                                      ... IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth. IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy. Politeness is a inherant to
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Sep 18 7:55 AM
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                                        On 9/17/07, Purple wrote:
                                        >  Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
                                        IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth.
                                         
                                        IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy.  Politeness is a inherant to Courtesy.
                                         
                                        Apparently, you're mileage varies. 
                                         
                                        Bojei
                                      • Tom Scrip
                                        We all know that there are more people on the book s then show up for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area, Groups that have there
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Sep 18 8:05 AM
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                                          We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up for
                                          a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                                          Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                                          how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                                          the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                                          know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)

                                          The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                                          vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you want
                                          to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the answere (I
                                          may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to questioning
                                          her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a few our Brothers
                                          that would also stand to defend it.

                                          Aethelwulf of Dover



                                          --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "grimkirk" <grimkirk@...> wrote:
                                          snip
                                          > Nadezda wrote on July 19th:
                                          > "Of 18 attendees, 15 were willing to make the shift to a Canton to
                                          > promote regional unity. Another 2 weighed in as being in favor by
                                          > proxy, and one more abstained."
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I read Nadezda's post as well, yet I fail to see your point.
                                          > While there are a few discrepancies with those numbers
                                          (undocumented
                                          > dissent), and I was not in attendance, so there does not seem to be
                                          > enough to change their general indication at this time. Regardless,
                                          > your perception that the group was overwhelmingly in favor of being
                                          > demoted to Canton hardly negates my opinion or historical
                                          > observations. I suggest (as does Lord Andrew) that the opinions of
                                          > those present were simply a sample of the mood du jour of those who
                                          > were present; hardly authoritative. Or does everyone actually think
                                          > that TGS only has a population of 18-20 people. Or that those who
                                          > were not in attendance have no opinion (or are not entitled to
                                          > express it)? For a group ostensibly the size of a Province, I'd
                                          think
                                          > even the Kingdom would find such numbers suspect. And trust me,
                                          they
                                          > will look deeper.
                                          >
                                          > You are invited to counter dissent with well reasoned argument.
                                          > However, I strongly suggest you not discount dissent on suspect
                                          > numbers alone (even if they are in the minority), lest some get it
                                          > into their heads that the SCA is something resembling a democracy.
                                          It
                                          > is not. The SCA's storied existance indicates that such dissent can
                                          > be sufficient to derail even the most well intentioned of
                                          endeavors.
                                          > And being blinded by entusiasm over EARLY 'test results' will
                                          > certainly prove a more effective foil than any argument I can make.
                                          >
                                          > However, as you can see from Nadezda's numbers, there is nothing
                                          > indicating any 'dissent', which is why I'm sure you interpreted
                                          them
                                          > as 'overwhelming'. For the record, Nadezda informed me just last
                                          > night that had I been present at that meeting, I would not have
                                          been
                                          > alone in my dissent. Also, 'willing to shift' is hardly 'in favor
                                          > of'. I'm guessing, but I suspect Nadezda most likely felt it was
                                          only
                                          > important to communicate the general outcome (a relatively harmless
                                          > oversight). Clearly I disagree, as it would seem equally important
                                          > for the degree of dissention to be made known as well. Of course,
                                          > your personal mileage may vary. However, I'm sure the Kingdom will
                                          > want to know those numbers as well, should this endeavor even get
                                          > that far.
                                          >
                                          > And none of this really counters anything I said previously. It is
                                          > simply my wish to permit everyone to make more informed decisions
                                          > when the time comes.
                                          >
                                          > -- Grimkirk ap Greymoor
                                          > Province of Tre-Girt-Sea
                                          >
                                          > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > The Province of TGS voted and Announced themselves to be
                                          > > overwhelmingly in favor of transitioning themselves to Canton
                                          > > status in favor of an overarching Barony that would include many
                                          > > groups of Ayreton. I believe the vote was announced 15 for and
                                          > > 2 against. The archives certainly have the announcement in them
                                          > > if you and others wish to locate the announcement.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ian the Green
                                          >
                                        • Christian Fournier
                                          ... Grey Gargoyles, at least, raised that issue well before the vote meeting, and decided that anyone could consider themselves a Gargoyle and thus vote
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Sep 18 8:31 AM
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                                            > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up for
                                            > a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                                            > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                                            > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                                            > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                                            > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)

                                            Grey Gargoyles, at least, raised that issue well before the "vote"
                                            meeting, and decided that anyone could consider themselves a Gargoyle
                                            and thus vote there, UNLESS they had already voted with another
                                            group. Further, anyone who votes at the Gargoyles' meeting is
                                            expected not to vote at any other group thereafter.

                                            It should be pretty clear, whichever side you favor: no double
                                            dipping...

                                            For my part, I've held two offices in Grey Gargoyles, though I've
                                            always lived in Tree-Girt-Sea. Lately, I've been going to TGS
                                            meetings, instead of GG meetings, so I voted at TGS.

                                            Christian Fournier
                                          • auldefarte
                                            Apologies to the list: Wulf, Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I m really getting tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Sep 18 9:54 AM
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                                              Apologies to the list:

                                              Wulf,

                                              Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really getting
                                              tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence) to
                                              you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.

                                              I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                                              this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not meant
                                              as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                                              And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                                              indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.

                                              Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where there
                                              is none.

                                              -- Grimkirk

                                              --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                                              > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                                              > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                                              > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                                              > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                                              > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                                              >
                                              > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                                              > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                                              > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                                              > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to
                                              > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                                              > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                                              >
                                              > Aethelwulf of Dover
                                            • David Roland
                                              Responded to Privately Ian ... getting ... to ... meant ... there ... area, ... and ... in ... (I ... poll, ... to
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Sep 18 10:39 AM
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                                                Responded to Privately

                                                Ian

                                                --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "auldefarte" <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Apologies to the list:
                                                >
                                                > Wulf,
                                                >
                                                > Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really
                                                getting
                                                > tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence)
                                                to
                                                > you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.
                                                >
                                                > I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                                                > this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not
                                                meant
                                                > as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                                                > And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                                                > indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.
                                                >
                                                > Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where
                                                there
                                                > is none.
                                                >
                                                > -- Grimkirk
                                                >
                                                > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                                                > > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the
                                                area,
                                                > > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area
                                                and
                                                > > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents
                                                in
                                                > > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here?
                                                (I
                                                > > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                                                > >
                                                > > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a
                                                poll,
                                                > > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                                                > > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                                                > > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin
                                                to
                                                > > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                                                > > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                                                > >
                                                > > Aethelwulf of Dover
                                                >
                                              • auldefarte
                                                Also Responded to Privately - Grimkirk :)
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Sep 18 11:06 AM
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                                                  Also Responded to Privately

                                                  - Grimkirk :)

                                                  --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "David Roland" <mystborne@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Responded to Privately
                                                  >
                                                  > Ian
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, "auldefarte" <auldefarte@> wrote:
                                                  > > Apologies to the list:
                                                • kevin purtrell
                                                  Dear Pan Grimkirk, Wulf is overly protective of his spouse. I am overly protective of Phebe. Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana. Andrew
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Sep 18 11:40 AM
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                                                    Dear Pan Grimkirk,
                                                     
                                                    Wulf is overly protective of his spouse.
                                                    I am overly protective of Phebe.
                                                    Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana.
                                                    Andrew McBaine is still overly protective of Sorcha.
                                                    Master Robyyan may very well be overly protective of  Sir Fern, but as he writes the software my library uses I don't even want ot go there.
                                                     
                                                    Sorry you didn't get the memo. ;)
                                                     
                                                    Kevin Ambrozijwski

                                                    auldefarte <auldefarte@...> wrote:
                                                    Apologies to the list:

                                                    Wulf,

                                                    Its really sad that I must respond to this, since I'm really getting
                                                    tired of having to defend or explain myself (and my very presence) to
                                                    you. In short: I'm back. Please find a way to get over it.

                                                    I've already had a private e-mail exchange with with Merrill about
                                                    this, explaining that my comments on the Ayreton list were not meant
                                                    as a personal attack in any way, and received a pleasant response.
                                                    And had you read the actual posted comments, you'd see I also
                                                    indicated that I perceived no malice on Merrill's part in any way.

                                                    Perhaps you might check with her before looking for fault where there
                                                    is none.

                                                    -- Grimkirk

                                                    --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups .com, "Tom Scrip" <tomscrip@.. .> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > We all know that there are more people on the book's then show up
                                                    > for a TGS meeting. Most of them play with other groups in the area,
                                                    > Groups that have there own opinion about a Barony in this area and
                                                    > how it should be formed. IF they are putting in their two cents in
                                                    > the another group why do they have to put it in aging over here? (I
                                                    > know it's the Chicago way to vote early and offen)
                                                    >
                                                    > The suggestion that Nadezda is trying to hide a out come of a poll,
                                                    > vote, or a question brought forth to the group (or what ever you
                                                    > want to call it) When a simpel subtraction would tell you the
                                                    > answere (I may not know how to spell but I can count). Is a kin to
                                                    > questioning her honor. And besides me, I'm sure that there are a
                                                    > few our Brothers that would also stand to defend it.
                                                    >
                                                    > Aethelwulf of Dover



                                                    Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                                                  • Tom Scrip
                                                    What can I say, I m just an un trained attack dog. :) wulf ... as he writes the software my library uses I don t even want ot go there.
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Sep 18 11:52 AM
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                                                      What can I say, I'm just an un trained attack dog. :)

                                                      'wulf

                                                      --- In Ayreton@yahoogroups.com, kevin purtrell <krpurtell@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Pan Grimkirk,
                                                      >
                                                      > Wulf is overly protective of his spouse.
                                                      > I am overly protective of Phebe.
                                                      > Master Hal is overly protective of Mistress Juliana.
                                                      > Andrew McBaine is still overly protective of Sorcha.
                                                      > Master Robyyan may very well be overly protective of Sir Fern, but
                                                      as he writes the software my library uses I don't even want ot go there.
                                                      >
                                                      > Sorry you didn't get the memo. ;)
                                                      >
                                                      > Kevin Ambrozijwski
                                                      >
                                                    • Dolores Becker
                                                      What she said. Since when are courtesy and truth mutually exclusive? To be courteous and false is a terrible thing, but to be honest and rude is not much
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Sep 18 3:51 PM
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                                                        What she said. 

                                                        Since when are courtesy and truth mutually exclusive?  To be courteous and false is a terrible thing, but to be honest and rude is not much better - that is, honesty does not excuse rudeness any more than courtesy excuses falseness.  Is it so difficult to behave in such a manner that both courtesy and truth are served? 

                                                        Yes, I know, I and mine have been known to champion rudeness in our day.  We've mellowed.  Playing nice with the other kids now...mostly. } ; )

                                                        Living the Code, Serving the Dream

                                                        Berngard Solgai, called Moose
                                                        Incipient Shire of Foxvale
                                                        Dark Horde Moritu

                                                        kateslists@... wrote:
                                                         
                                                        On 9/17/07, Purple wrote:
                                                        >  Truth does not take a backseat to politeness.
                                                        IMHO, Politeness does not and should not take a backseat to truth.
                                                         
                                                        IMHO, the SCA ideals include Chivalry and Courtesy.  Politeness is a inherant to Courtesy.
                                                         
                                                        Apparently, you're mileage varies. 
                                                         
                                                        Bojei



                                                        ------------------------------------------
                                                        The almost right life is nothing at all. The right life is dangerous, open-ended, more questions than answers, a map to undiscovered countries.
                                                        -- 'Chasing Shakespeares' by Sarah Smith


                                                        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                                                        Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

                                                      • David Valenta
                                                        In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a vote on the Barony Issue (tm). We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue. We voted on whether we
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Sep 19 7:18 AM
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                                                          In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a "vote" on the Barony Issue
                                                          (tm).
                                                          We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue.
                                                          We voted on whether we wanted to "vote".
                                                          We have voted on when we want to "vote".
                                                          The actual "vote" will be at our October Business Meeting so our
                                                          student population can be included.

                                                          Unless we vote otherwise.

                                                          Guy Dawkins
                                                        • John Adams
                                                          -- Grimkirk :) ... From: David Valenta To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Sep 19 7:24 AM
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                                                            <grabbing a helmet and looking for the nearest foxhole>
                                                            -- Grimkirk :)

                                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                                            From: David Valenta <dvalenta@...>
                                                            To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:18:42 AM
                                                            Subject: [Ayreton] Re: Groups Transition Discussion


                                                            In point of fact Grey Gargoyles has not had a "vote" on the Barony Issue
                                                            (tm).
                                                            We voted on whether we wanted to discuss the issue.
                                                            We voted on whether we wanted to "vote".
                                                            We have voted on when we want to "vote".
                                                            The actual "vote" will be at our October Business Meeting so our
                                                            student population can be included.

                                                            Unless we vote otherwise.

                                                            Guy Dawkins


                                                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                                          • spdesroches@att.net
                                                            ... A couple of points First, the vote taken at that meeting * was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Sep 19 8:04 AM
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                                                              -------------- Original message from spdesroches@...: --------------

                                                              A couple of points

                                                               

                                                              First, the vote taken at that meeting * was a preliminary one necessary to decide on whether or not to proceed. This was also done at Grey Gargoyles, with discussion amongst those who attended.

                                                               

                                                              My words, your point taken. see you in October.

                                                              *(TGS)

                                                              Etienne

                                                              .

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