Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Ayreton] barony/province/duchy/canton/laander/very small rocks question

Expand Messages
  • elliot liebson
    --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we could have a region-wide moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and solely for the purpose of
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 29, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we could have a region-wide
      moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and solely for the purpose of
      discussing this issue? I think it would be very productive to have as many
      well-informed bodies in the room as possible bouncing ideas off one another,
      and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a proposal or three for the
      populace to consider. That does NOT necessarily mean having formal
      petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we came up with these three
      ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live with: what do you think?'

      Here's a question: supposing that did happen, and proposals were made, and
      discussed among the various groups, and suppose one or two received strong
      consensus. What then? Do they go to the Crown and the BoD? do said bodies
      have to review these things before the populace discusses them? Again I
      apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to shift into the
      OK-lets-move-into-more-action-and-less-discussion mode. My sense is that
      there is at least an interest in having serious discussion, and I don't see
      that an internet listserve, however well-done, will move the conversation
      forward to next steps. (and if I'm wrong or out of turn feel free to give
      me a smack-on-head). So again; shall we have a Big Meeting (tm)? if it's
      on the weekend I'll even (gulp) volunteer to take notes and help moderate
      (this is part of what I do for a living). What say you all?

      YIS
      Salamon
      (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would NW indiana be included?)


      >
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
      It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
    • Scribesquire@comcast.net
      Uh, not being nasty or anything, but we had one of these last weekend at the Ravenslake event. Henry ... From: elliot liebson ... Uh,
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 29, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Uh, not being nasty or anything, but we had one of these last weekend at the Ravenslake event.
         
        Henry
         
        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: "elliot liebson" <eliebson@...>

        >
        > --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we could have a region-wide
        > moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and solely for the purpose of
        > discussing this issue? I think it would be very productive to have as many
        > well-informed bodies in the room as possible bouncing ideas off one another,
        > and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a proposal or three for the
        > populace to consider. That does NOT necessarily mean having formal
        > petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we came up with these three
        > ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live with: what do you think?'
        >
        > Here's a question: supposing that did happen, and proposals were made, and
        > discussed among the various groups, and suppose one or two received strong
        > consensus. What then? Do they go to the Crown and the BoD? do said bodies
        > have to review these things before the populace discusses them? Again I
        > apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to shift into the
        > OK-lets-move-into-more-action-and-less-discussion mode. My sense is that
        > there is at least an interest in having serious discussion, and I don't see
        > that an internet listserve, however well-done, will move the conversation
        > forward to next steps. (and if I'm wrong or out of turn feel free to give
        > me a smack-on-head). So again; shall we have a Big Meeting (tm)? if it's
        > on the weekend I'll even (gulp) volunteer to take notes and help moderate
        > (this is part of what I do for a living). What say you all?
        >
        > YIS
        > Salamon
        > (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would NW indiana be included?)
        >
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
        > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
        >
        >
        >
        > ~~~~~
        >
        > To view and add events to the calendar:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/cal/
        >
        > To discontinue receiving discussion, but still receive announcements, go to
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join and change your subscription to
        > "Special Notices". Activities coordinators, to get access to post Special
        > Notices, send a request to .
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/
        >
        > <*> Your email settings:
        > Individual Email | T raditional
        >
        > <*> To change settings online go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join
        > (Yahoo! ID required)
        >
        > <*> To change settings via email:
        > mailto:Ayreton-digest@yahoogroups.com
        > mailto:Ayreton-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Ayreton-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Tedesco da Venezia
        That is what the purpose of last Saturday s town meeting was supposed to be for. No doubt, we will have others during this process (MKAOD, All Souls, 12th
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 29, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          That is what the purpose of last Saturday's town meeting was supposed to be for.  No doubt, we will have others during this process (MKAOD, All Souls, 12th Night--just like last year) but I can see a certain value in having one specifically NOT during an event.  Unfortunately, finding a time and date where everyone can get together is not an easy task.  The nice thing about using the mailing lists is people can chime in any time they have a free moment, and with OVER 170 subscribers we are potentially involving more people in the discussion than any meeting ever could-- at the very least, more people are hearing the discussion that is taking place.

          The mayor's intention was for this to start, discussion to take place here, discussion to happen at the individual shire meetings lead by their individual seneschals, then we would have a follow-up area wide meeting where the seneschals (and anyone else who wishes to participate) act as representatives for their shires and voice all concerns, comments, etc, and perhaps take another area-wide poll, this time with a much greater distribution.

          No, there is no way we can involve NW Indiana.  Chapter borders are not allowed to cross regional borders (state lines).  There are some NW Indiana folk on this mailing list, and no doubt if we did something along these lines they would continue to subscribe to have a better idea of what's going on, which is fine.  On top of that, Grey Hope has publicly stated that while they want to be a good neighbor, they did not want to join in, not wanting to be an stated part of the unofficial "Town of Ayreton".

          ~Tedesco~



          On 6/29/07, elliot liebson <eliebson@...> wrote:

          --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we could have a region-wide
          moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and solely for the purpose of
          discussing this issue?  I think it would be very productive to have as many
          well-informed bodies in the room as possible bouncing ideas off one another,
          and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a proposal or three for the
          populace to consider.  That does NOT necessarily mean having formal
          petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we came up with these three
          ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live with: what do you think?'

          Here's a question: supposing that did happen, and proposals were made, and
          discussed among the various groups, and suppose one or two received strong
          consensus.  What then?  Do they go to the Crown and the BoD?  do said bodies
          have to review these things before the populace discusses them?  Again I
          apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to shift into the
          OK-lets-move-into-more-action-and-less-discussion mode.  My sense is that
          there is at least an interest in having serious discussion, and I don't see
          that an internet listserve, however well-done, will move the conversation
          forward to next steps.  (and if I'm wrong or out of turn feel free to give
          me a smack-on-head).  So again; shall we have a Big Meeting (tm)?  if it's
          on the weekend I'll even (gulp) volunteer to take notes and help moderate
          (this is part of what I do for a living).  What say you all?

          YIS
          Salamon
          (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would NW indiana be included?)


          >
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now.
          It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07



          ~~~~~

          To view and add events to the calendar: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/cal/

          To discontinue receiving discussion, but still receive announcements, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join and change your subscription to "Special Notices".  Activities coordinators, to get access to post Special Notices, send a request to < Ayreton-owner@yahoogroups.com>.

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/

          <*> Your email settings:
              Individual Email | Traditional

          <*> To change settings online go to:
               http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join
              (Yahoo! ID required)

          <*> To change settings via email:
              mailto:Ayreton-digest@yahoogroups.com
              mailto:Ayreton-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

          <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
               Ayreton-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        • Metylda
          And the problem with having a meeting at an event is that the staff of the event can not attend. That is why there were only two people from Ravenslake there.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 29, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            And the problem with having a meeting at an event is
            that the staff of the event can not attend. That is
            why there were only two people from Ravenslake there.
            Everyone else was working the event.

            Metylda

            --- Scribesquire@... wrote:

            > Uh, not being nasty or anything, but we had one of
            > these last weekend at the Ravenslake event.
            >
            > Henry
            >
            > -

            There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

            *****

            Me þæt wyrd gewæf



            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
            http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
          • Metylda
            As I just mentioned - I would almost rather a specific time and place OUTSIDE of events that the meetings be held at. At MKAOD - most of Ravenslake will be
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 29, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              As I just mentioned - I would almost rather a specific
              time and place OUTSIDE of events that the meetings be
              held at.

              At MKAOD - most of Ravenslake will be working, again,
              as we were for Border Skirmish. At All Souls - most
              of Vanished Woods will be working the event. Ditto TGS
              for 12th Night. If we want to have a discussion, it's
              hard to bounce ideas off of each other if we are
              missing most of a group.

              If we meet outside of an event, at worst, it'll give
              people an idea of how Baronial Meetings will work.
              People will get a feel for how far is it to travel,
              time it takes to get to places, general idea of where
              the meetings will be held, and who is likely to show
              up.

              Metylda

              --- Tedesco da Venezia <tedesco@...> wrote:

              > That is what the purpose of last Saturday's town
              > meeting was supposed to be
              > for. No doubt, we will have others during this
              > process (MKAOD, All Souls,
              > 12th Night--just like last year) but I can see a
              > certain value in having one
              > specifically NOT during an event. Unfortunately,
              > finding a time and date
              > where everyone can get together is not an easy task.
              > The nice thing about
              > using the mailing lists is people can chime in any
              > time they have a free
              > moment, and with OVER 170 subscribers we are
              > potentially involving more
              > people in the discussion than any meeting ever
              > could-- at the very least,
              > more people are hearing the discussion that is
              > taking place.
              >
              > The mayor's intention was for this to start,
              > discussion to take place here,
              > discussion to happen at the individual shire
              > meetings lead by their
              > individual seneschals, then we would have a
              > follow-up area wide meeting
              > where the seneschals (and anyone else who wishes to
              > participate) act as
              > representatives for their shires and voice all
              > concerns, comments, etc, and
              > perhaps take another area-wide poll, this time with
              > a much greater
              > distribution.
              >
              > No, there is no way we can involve NW Indiana.
              > Chapter borders are not
              > allowed to cross regional borders (state lines).
              > There are some NW Indiana
              > folk on this mailing list, and no doubt if we did
              > something along these
              > lines they would continue to subscribe to have a
              > better idea of what's going
              > on, which is fine. On top of that, Grey Hope has
              > publicly stated that while
              > they want to be a good neighbor, they did not want
              > to join in, not wanting
              > to be an stated part of the unofficial "Town of
              > Ayreton".
              >
              > ~Tedesco~
              >
              >
              >
              > On 6/29/07, elliot liebson <eliebson@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we
              > could have a
              > > region-wide
              > > moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and
              > solely for the purpose of
              > > discussing this issue? I think it would be very
              > productive to have as
              > > many
              > > well-informed bodies in the room as possible
              > bouncing ideas off one
              > > another,
              > > and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a
              > proposal or three for the
              > > populace to consider. That does NOT necessarily
              > mean having formal
              > > petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we
              > came up with these three
              > > ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live
              > with: what do you
              > > think?'
              > >
              > > Here's a question: supposing that did happen, and
              > proposals were made, and
              > > discussed among the various groups, and suppose
              > one or two received strong
              > > consensus. What then? Do they go to the Crown
              > and the BoD? do said
              > > bodies
              > > have to review these things before the populace
              > discusses them? Again I
              > > apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to
              > shift into the
              > > OK-lets-move-into-more-action-and-less-discussion
              > mode. My sense is that
              > > there is at least an interest in having serious
              > discussion, and I don't
              > > see
              > > that an internet listserve, however well-done,
              > will move the conversation
              > > forward to next steps. (and if I'm wrong or out
              > of turn feel free to give
              > > me a smack-on-head). So again; shall we have a
              > Big Meeting (tm)? if it's
              > > on the weekend I'll even (gulp) volunteer to take
              > notes and help moderate
              > > (this is part of what I do for a living). What
              > say you all?
              > >
              > > YIS
              > > Salamon
              > > (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would
              > NW indiana be
              > > included?)
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join
              > the i'm Initiative now.
              > > It's free.
              >
              http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ~~~~~
              > >
              > > To view and add events to the calendar:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/cal/
              > >
              > > To discontinue receiving discussion, but still
              > receive announcements, go
              > > to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join and
              > change your subscription
              > > to "Special Notices". Activities coordinators, to
              > get access to post
              > > Special Notices, send a request to
              > <Ayreton-owner@yahoogroups.com>.
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


              There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

              *****

              Me þæt wyrd gewæf


              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
            • Earik MacSkellie
              Tedesco, I was wondering where you got your information about crossing state lines. Or perhaps I am confused as to what you mean by chapter. Since the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 30, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Tedesco, I was wondering where you got your information about crossing state lines. Or perhaps I am confused as to what you mean by chapter. Since the discussion has mutated to the sometimes inclusion of principality, I wonder if you could clarify what you are referring to - barony or principality. Thanks.

                On 6/29/07, Tedesco da Venezia <tedesco@...> wrote:

                That is what the purpose of last Saturday's town meeting was supposed to be for.  No doubt, we will have others during this process (MKAOD, All Souls, 12th Night--just like last year) but I can see a certain value in having one specifically NOT during an event.  Unfortunately, finding a time and date where everyone can get together is not an easy task.  The nice thing about using the mailing lists is people can chime in any time they have a free moment, and with OVER 170 subscribers we are potentially involving more people in the discussion than any meeting ever could-- at the very least, more people are hearing the discussion that is taking place.

                The mayor's intention was for this to start, discussion to take place here, discussion to happen at the individual shire meetings lead by their individual seneschals, then we would have a follow-up area wide meeting where the seneschals (and anyone else who wishes to participate) act as representatives for their shires and voice all concerns, comments, etc, and perhaps take another area-wide poll, this time with a much greater distribution.

                No, there is no way we can involve NW Indiana.  Chapter borders are not allowed to cross regional borders (state lines).  There are some NW Indiana folk on this mailing list, and no doubt if we did something along these lines they would continue to subscribe to have a better idea of what's going on, which is fine.  On top of that, Grey Hope has publicly stated that while they want to be a good neighbor, they did not want to join in, not wanting to be an stated part of the unofficial "Town of Ayreton".

                ~Tedesco~





                On 6/29/07, elliot liebson <eliebson@... > wrote:

                --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we could have a region-wide
                moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and solely for the purpose of
                discussing this issue?  I think it would be very productive to have as many
                well-informed bodies in the room as possible bouncing ideas off one another,
                and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a proposal or three for the
                populace to consider.  That does NOT necessarily mean having formal
                petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we came up with these three
                ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live with: what do you think?'

                Here's a question: supposing that did happen, and proposals were made, and
                discussed among the various groups, and suppose one or two received strong
                consensus.  What then?  Do they go to the Crown and the BoD?  do said bodies
                have to review these things before the populace discusses them?  Again I
                apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to shift into the
                OK-lets-move-into-more-action-and-less-discussion mode.  My sense is that
                there is at least an interest in having serious discussion, and I don't see
                that an internet listserve, however well-done, will move the conversation
                forward to next steps.  (and if I'm wrong or out of turn feel free to give
                me a smack-on-head).  So again; shall we have a Big Meeting (tm)?  if it's
                on the weekend I'll even (gulp) volunteer to take notes and help moderate
                (this is part of what I do for a living).  What say you all?

                YIS
                Salamon
                (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would NW indiana be included?)


                >
                >
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
                Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now.
                It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07



                ~~~~~

                To view and add events to the calendar: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/cal/

                To discontinue receiving discussion, but still receive announcements, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join and change your subscription to "Special Notices".  Activities coordinators, to get access to post Special Notices, send a request to < Ayreton-owner@yahoogroups.com>.

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/

                <*> Your email settings:
                    Individual Email | Traditional

                <*> To change settings online go to:
                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ayreton/join
                    (Yahoo! ID required)

                <*> To change settings via email:
                    mailto: Ayreton-digest@yahoogroups.com
                    mailto:Ayreton-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                     Ayreton-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                --
                Ld. Earik MacSkellie
                Squire to Sir Galem Lionel Ostwestly
                Marshal, Incipient Shire of Foxvale

                http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/michael.labny%40gmail.com/public/basic
                http://earikmacskellie.blogspot.com/
              • ayretontownecryer
                GROUP BORDERS Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national borders without the Society Seneschals approval. All other levels of SCA groups
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 30, 2007
                • 0 Attachment

                  GROUP BORDERS

                  Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national borders without the Society Seneschals approval.  All other levels of SCA groups may NOT cross state lines.  (SOURCE CITATION: SCA Corpora - III B 2nd paragraph.)

                  Side note:  Corpora III is titled Branches.  I would recommend reading this section of Corpora.  Here is the link to the entire document.

                  http://www.sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf

                  BUREAUCRACY/EXTRA LEVEL OF PAPERWORK

                  As a student of how various bureaucracies work I would like to make a couple of comments about the pros and cons on this subject as there hasn't been any discussion as to how/why this would be a bad or a good thing.

                  STATUS QUO - WHAT WE HAVE NOW

                  The current process goes like this.  6 groups.

                  MONTH 1:  6 business meetings/moots.   For area wide events/issues you have 6 seperate conversations on same subject.   If there is an event with a meeting that month, Representatives of groups talk with each other and not always at the same time.

                  MONTH 2: 6 business meeting/moots.  Seperate conversation on same subject with representatives best take on what other groups said.  Decision made or not.  If there is an event witha meeting that month.  Representatives come together discuss decisions.

                  Thats incredibly fast for around here.  Having been involved with the process for the 1st Ayreton Carnival this was the process we dealt with regularly.  Often this process took 4 or 5 months on single issues.  And this happened for each and every issue until an Event Steward was picked and then they focused at least the running of the event.   That is a lot of bureaucracy.

                  Pros - Noone gets forced into anything.  At any time any group can opt out.  Things take time to shake out.  Minority doesn't get over run by Majority opinion.  Each group gets to maintain its identity.  Each group gets to keep doing its own events.  Report and contact to Regional Officers.  Disputes between groups worked out between groups and disputes inside a group are worked out inside that group.

                  Cons - Things never happen quickly.  Process does not deal with issues in a time relavent manner unless the issue is far in the future.  At any time any group can opt out potentially causing undue burden on the other groups.  Must have one group shoulder burden of 6 groups event bookkeeping.  People feel progress isn't being made even if it is.  Regional officers have lots of others they work with and you could be low on the priority list to respond back to.  Disputes between groups or in a group that can not or are not being settled require a regional officer who may be far away.

                  BARONIAL BUREAUCRACY - Shell Barony (As that is what this discussion seems to have focused on)

                  6 cantons.  1 Barony.

                  MONTH 1:  Groups go to Baronial Meeting for area wide events/issues.  Decisions worked out and made at said meeting. 

                  MONTH 2: Have follow-up meetings for progress.

                  Pros - Decision making is quicker and/or more efficient.  There is one "referee" that keeps things moving in direction.  Each group gets to maintain its identity and be part of something bigger and a sense of better.  Each group gets to keep doing its own event.  Each group shoulders the burden it expected to shoulder.  Good baron(ess) makes things very fun, run well and provides excellent leadership for the area helping it to grow.  Report/Contact baronial officers who have only 5 other groups to deal with and so no matter how low on the priority list you are there are only 5  others that can be ahead of you.  Disputes between groups worked out between groups and disputes inside a group are worked out inside that group.  Disputes that can not or are not worked out between groups or in a group have a Baron(ess) who is readily available to direct and cause settlement to the benefit of all.  NOTE: So could the regional officer.

                  Cons - Majoity could over ride minority.  Quicky made decision can miss important details.  Being a part of something bigger could lead to a sense of loss of identity.  Bad Baron(ess) could make things not fun, run worse and provide poor leadership causing people to walk away.    Disputes that can not or are not worked out between groups or in a group have a Baron(ess) who is readily available to direct and cause settlement that makes things worse.  NOTE: So could the regional officer.

                  NOTE: For some in the area TGS losing its province status is a CON as well.  For others, even in the Province, it is not.  Thus I put it here in the NOTE section.  It is an important NOTE certainly but it is not a sentiment that is universally shared.

                  These are MY viewpoints based on what I have seen and offered for everyone to comment on.  Please feel free to disagree and make constructive criticisms as well as make your own observations.

                  Both levels of doing things have their advantages.  Both have their disadvantages.  You may feel that one is much more acceptable than the other.  That's fine whichever side you fall on.

                  I hope I have added another aspect of the conversation to be looked at more closely and helped to clarify some things for you.  Please continue this conversation in the manner it has so wonderfully taken.

                  Ian the Green

                  Ayreton Towne Cryer

                • ayretontownecryer
                  CORRECTION!!! GROUP BORDERS Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national borders without the Society Seneschals approval. All other levels
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 30, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    CORRECTION!!!

                    GROUP BORDERS

                    "Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national
                    borders without the Society Seneschals approval. All other levels of
                    SCA groups may NOT cross state lines. (SOURCE CITATION: SCA Corpora -
                    III B 2nd paragraph.)"

                    Should read wtihout the second Sentence.

                    "Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national
                    borders without the Society Seneschals approval. (SOURCE CITATION: SCA
                    Corpora - III B 2nd paragraph.)"

                    I apologize for the mistake.

                    Ian the Green
                    Ayreton Towne Cryer
                  • AlexdeSet@aol.com
                    Greetings! ???? Just so we all know, in a Barony with Cantons, there is a Canton meeting each month and there is a Baronial meeting each month. If you work it
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 30, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Greetings!
                           Just so we all know, in a Barony with Cantons, there is a Canton meeting each month and there is a Baronial meeting each month. If you work it right, the Baronial meeting can be after the Canton meetings, so folks on the local level can have their say/discussion. In this case there would be seven different discussions each month, since there is another (Baronial) meeting to add. That need not be a problem, but there is an extra meeting.
                           Baronial officers would still have six (or however many Cantons there are) folks to supervise. A Baronial officer cannot hold the same office in the Canton, as one cannot report to oneself. (I cannot be a Seneschal of a group and the Regional Seneschal at the same time, for instance).
                           I have been a Baronial officer and a Canton officer in that Barony (Altavia, Fair Caid). It is fun for the Canton/Shire to run it's own events. In my opinion, it is also fun to be able to run an event with more resources (such as would be provided by a Barony-people, talents, money, etc.). Plus with another entity (Barony) there would be more events-and in my opinion, more events are better than less events. In additrion, a Barony gives you more excuses for schtick, and a figurehead/leader that is not available to Shires.
                      Is mise le meas,
                      Alexander de Seton of Altavia


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: ayretontownecryer <ayretontownecryer@...>
                      To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:46 am
                      Subject: [Ayreton] Re: barony/province/duchy/canton/laander/very small rocks question

                      GROUP BORDERS
                      Groups below Principality level may not cross state or national borders without the Society Seneschals approval.  All other levels of SCA groups may NOT cross state lines.  (SOURCE CITATION: SCA Corpora - III B 2nd paragraph.)
                      Side note:  Corpora III is titled Branches.  I would recommend reading this section of Corpora.  Here is the link to the entire document.
                      BUREAUCRACY/ EXTRA LEVEL OF PAPERWORK
                      As a student of how various bureaucracies work I would like to make a couple of comments about the pros and cons on this subject as there hasn't been any discussion as to how/why this would be a bad or a good thing.
                      STATUS QUO - WHAT WE HAVE NOW
                      The current process goes like this.  6 groups.
                      MONTH 1:  6 business meetings/moots.   For area wide events/issues you have 6 seperate conversations on same subject.   If there is an event with a meeting that month, Representatives of groups talk with each other and not always at the same time.
                      MONTH 2: 6 business meeting/moots.  Seperate conversation on same subject with representatives best take on what other groups said.  Decision made or not.  If there is an event witha meeting that month.  Representatives come together discuss decisions.
                      Thats incredibly fast for around here.  Having been involved with the process for the 1st Ayreton Carnival this was the process we dealt with regularly.  Often this process took 4 or 5 months on single issues.  And this happened for each and every issue until an Event Steward was picked and then they focused at least the running of the event.   That is a lot of bureaucracy.
                      Pros - Noone gets forced into anything.  At any time any group can opt out.  Things take time to shake out.  Minority doesn't get over run by Majority opinion.  Each group gets to maintain its identity.  Each group gets to keep doing its own events.  Report and contact to Regional Officers.  Disputes between groups worked out between groups and disputes inside a group are worked out inside that group.
                      Cons - Things never happen quickly.  Process does not deal with issues in a time relavent manner unless the issue is far in the future.  At any time any group can opt out potentially causing undue burden on the other groups.  Must have one group shoulder burden of 6 groups event bookkeeping.  People feel progress isn't being made even if it is.  Regional officers have lots of others they work with and you could be low on the priority list to respond back to.  Disputes between groups or in a group that can not or are not being settled require a regional officer who may be far away.
                      BARONIAL BUREAUCRACY - Shell Barony (As that is what this discussion seems to have focused on)
                      6 cantons.  1 Barony.
                      MONTH 1:  Groups go to Baronial Meeting for area wide events/issues.  Decisions worked out and made at said meeting. 
                      MONTH 2: Have follow-up meetings for progress.
                      Pros - Decision making is quicker and/or more efficient.  There is one "referee" that keeps things moving in direction.  Each group gets to maintain its identity and be part of something bigger and a sense of better.  Each group gets to keep doing its own event.  Each group shoulders the burden it expected to shoulder.  Good baron(ess) makes things very fun, run well and provides excellent leadership for the area helping it to grow.  Report/Contact baronial officers who have only 5 other groups to deal with and so no matter how low on the priority list you are there are only 5  others that can be ahead of you.  Disputes between groups worked out between groups and disputes inside a group are worked out inside that group.  Disputes that can not or are not worked out between groups or in a group have a Baron(ess) who is readily available to direct and cause settlement to the benefit of all.  NOTE: So could the regional officer.
                      Cons - Majoity could over ride minority.  Quicky made decision can miss important details.  Being a part of something bigger could lead to a sense of loss of identity.  Bad Baron(ess) could make things not fun, run worse and provide poor leadership causing people to walk away.    Disputes that can not or are not worked out between groups or in a group have a Baron(ess) who is readily available to direct and cause settlement that makes things worse.  NOTE: So could the regional officer.
                      NOTE: For some in the area TGS losing its province status is a CON as well.  For others, even in the Province, it is not.  Thus I put it here in the NOTE section.  It is an important NOTE certainly but it is not a sentiment that is universally shared.
                      These are MY viewpoints based on what I have seen and offered for everyone to comment on.  Please feel free to disagree and make constructive criticisms as well as make your own observations.
                      Both levels of doing things have their advantages.  Both have their disadvantages.  You may feel that one is much more acceptable than the other.  That's fine whichever side you fall on.
                      I hope I have added another aspect of the conversation to be looked at more closely and helped to clarify some things for you.  Please continue this conversation in the manner it has so wonderfully taken.
                      Ian the Green
                      Ayreton Towne Cryer

                      AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
                    • Dayle Harding
                      Question-- Would most of the Ravenslake people be working say later in the evening of Saturday at MKAOD? Yea, I know that having a meeting at an event is a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Question--
                         
                        Would most of the Ravenslake people be working say later in the evening of Saturday at MKAOD?  Yea, I know that having a meeting at an event is a killer for the host group. 
                         
                        Another thought...what about a "Towne meeting" at a fighter practice, say at the beginning or end of a session at a popularly agreed time/day???
                         
                        Just playing with thoughts here while basking in the Florida sun...
                         
                        Acelina

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Metylda <bamf505@...>
                        To: Ayreton@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:53:59 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Ayreton] barony/province/duchy/canton/laander/very small rocks question

                        As I just mentioned - I would almost rather a specific
                        time and place OUTSIDE of events that the meetings be
                        held at.

                        At MKAOD - most of Ravenslake will be working, again,
                        as we were for Border Skirmish. At All Souls - most
                        of Vanished Woods will be working the event. Ditto TGS
                        for 12th Night. If we want to have a discussion, it's
                        hard to bounce ideas off of each other if we are
                        missing most of a group.

                        If we meet outside of an event, at worst, it'll give
                        people an idea of how Baronial Meetings will work.
                        People will get a feel for how far is it to travel,
                        time it takes to get to places, general idea of where
                        the meetings will be held, and who is likely to show
                        up.

                        Metylda

                        --- Tedesco da Venezia <tedesco@ayreton. org> wrote:

                        > That is what the purpose of last Saturday's town
                        > meeting was supposed to be
                        > for.
                        No doubt, we will have others during this
                        > process (MKAOD, All Souls,
                        > 12th Night--just like last year) but I can see a
                        > certain value in having one
                        > specifically NOT during an event. Unfortunately,
                        > finding a time and date
                        > where everyone can get together is not an easy task.
                        > The nice thing about
                        > using the mailing lists is people can chime in any
                        > time they have a free
                        > moment, and with OVER 170 subscribers we are
                        > potentially involving more
                        > people in the discussion than any meeting ever
                        > could-- at the very least,
                        > more people are hearing the discussion that is
                        > taking place.
                        >
                        > The mayor's intention was for this to start,
                        > discussion to take place here,
                        > discussion to happen at the individual shire
                        > meetings lead by their
                        > individual seneschals, then we would have a
                        > follow-up area wide meeting
                        > where the
                        seneschals (and anyone else who wishes to
                        > participate) act as
                        > representatives for their shires and voice all
                        > concerns, comments, etc, and
                        > perhaps take another area-wide poll, this time with
                        > a much greater
                        > distribution.
                        >
                        > No, there is no way we can involve NW Indiana.
                        > Chapter borders are not
                        > allowed to cross regional borders (state lines).
                        > There are some NW Indiana
                        > folk on this mailing list, and no doubt if we did
                        > something along these
                        > lines they would continue to subscribe to have a
                        > better idea of what's going
                        > on, which is fine. On top of that, Grey Hope has
                        > publicly stated that while
                        > they want to be a good neighbor, they did not want
                        > to join in, not wanting
                        > to be an stated part of the unofficial "Town of
                        > Ayreton".
                        >
                        > ~Tedesco~
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 6/29/07, elliot liebson
                        <eliebson@hotmail. com>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --I like this discussion, but I am wondering if we
                        > could have a
                        > > region-wide
                        > > moot (insert term of choice here) expresslly and
                        > solely for the purpose of
                        > > discussing this issue? I think it would be very
                        > productive to have as
                        > > many
                        > > well-informed bodies in the room as possible
                        > bouncing ideas off one
                        > > another,
                        > > and perhaps, if we are lucky, come up with a
                        > proposal or three for the
                        > > populace to consider. That does NOT necessarily
                        > mean having formal
                        > > petitions for everyone; it could simply be: 'we
                        > came up with these three
                        > > ideas that the discussiongroup generally can live
                        > with: what do you
                        > > think?'
                        > >
                        > > Here's a
                        question: supposing that did happen, and
                        > proposals were made, and
                        > > discussed among the various groups, and suppose
                        > one or two received strong
                        > > consensus. What then? Do they go to the Crown
                        > and the BoD? do said
                        > > bodies
                        > > have to review these things before the populace
                        > discusses them? Again I
                        > > apologize for nit-pickiness, but I'm starting to
                        > shift into the
                        > > OK-lets-move- into-more- action-and- less-discussion
                        > mode. My sense is that
                        > > there is at least an interest in having serious
                        > discussion, and I don't
                        > > see
                        > > that an internet listserve, however well-done,
                        > will move the conversation
                        > > forward to next steps. (and if I'm wrong or out
                        > of turn feel free to give
                        > > me a smack-on-head) . So again; shall we have a
                        > Big Meeting (tm)? if it's
                        > > on the weekend I'll even
                        (gulp) volunteer to take
                        > notes and help moderate
                        > > (this is part of what I do for a living). What
                        > say you all?
                        > >
                        > > YIS
                        > > Salamon
                        > > (PS: adding yet another level of complexity: would
                        > NW indiana be
                        > > included?)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join
                        > the i'm Initiative now.
                        > > It's free.
                        >
                        http://im.live. com/messenger/ im/home/? source=TAGHM_ June07
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ~~~~~
                        > >
                        > > To view and add events to the calendar:
                        > >
                        rel=nofollow>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ cal/
                        > >
                        > > To discontinue receiving discussion, but still
                        > receive announcements, go
                        > > to http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Ayreton/ join and
                        > change your subscription
                        > > to "Special Notices". Activities coordinators, to
                        > get access to post
                        > > Special Notices, send a request to
                        > <Ayreton-owner@ yahoogroups. com>.
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                        There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.

                        *****

                        Me þæt wyrd gewæf

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink. yahoo.com/ gmrs/yahoo_ panel_invite. asp?a=7




                        Be a PS3 game guru.
                        Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.