Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Chelation protcol and gut bugs

Expand Messages
  • andrewhallcutler
    ... No. I am going nuts quietly because of the following conundrum: Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few people on whose cases I
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      > Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing bad
      > problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut bugs
      > becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause overall
      > regression and ultimately delay chelation?

      No.

      I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:

      Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few people on
      whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen in
      person.

      The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct personal
      experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also never did
      any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be essential in
      controlling these.

      I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
      differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is controllable
      can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT
      IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

      The things I CAN tell you are:

      Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
      inappropriately long administration interval makes these problems
      tremendously worse.

      People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut bug
      problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it eliminates some
      major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
      "opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical explanations
      for why it works).

      DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.

      DMPS is far less of a problem.

      ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.

      People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem to do
      pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who wait
      for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It does
      seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and most of
      the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
      terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
      treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and going back
      to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's multitudinous
      posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using an 8
      hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a lid on
      things.

      Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems to work
      better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect that
      combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
      effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to really
      know.

      All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents that I
      never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat yeast,
      prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement. Most
      naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even alternative
      MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like Diflucan
      on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin (and
      oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS, probiotics
      - about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
      general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so powerful
      it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will use
      it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is much
      better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh on the
      patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding pharmacies
      since it isn't FDA approved.

      So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big problem, it
      is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
      happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more problematic
      than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
      related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet or
      supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I don't
      r
    • marib005
      Andy, Regarding problems w/ the gut bugs. I believe the problem can be with the stealth virus. Maybe those that are affected by the stealth are experiencing
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Andy,

        Regarding problems w/ the gut bugs. I believe the problem can be
        with the stealth virus. Maybe those that are affected by the stealth
        are experiencing problems with the gut bugs. I say this because Dr.
        Martin's protocol calls for 125mg of biaxin 2 x's a day, an
        antibiotic. This did not just improve Jack's receptive langauge it
        improved his his gastro function. I also know 2 other moms that felt
        the same way about the biaxin andseveral moms on this list have
        reported benefits from there child going on zithromax.
        I have also discovered that the houston enzymes are starving out the
        virus just like the biaxin. I was so impressed by the impact that
        the enzymes had on Jack relating to others that I called Dr. Martin
        and he agreed that they were probably lowering chemokines that feed
        the virus. I believe some children need a combination of the two
        protocols and I really wish that you would call and speak with Dr.
        Martin and see if you can make some sense out of all of this.

        Jack has been on your protocol for a year and 1/2. He has yeast but
        he has progressed with every cycle.

        Thanks,

        Marianne

        --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
        wrote:
        > > Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing bad
        > > problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut bugs
        > > becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause
        overall
        > > regression and ultimately delay chelation?
        >
        > No.
        >
        > I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:
        >
        > Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few people
        on
        > whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen in
        > person.
        >
        > The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct personal
        > experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also never
        did
        > any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be essential
        in
        > controlling these.
        >
        > I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
        > differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is controllable
        > can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW WHAT
        IT
        > IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
        >
        > The things I CAN tell you are:
        >
        > Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
        > inappropriately long administration interval makes these problems
        > tremendously worse.
        >
        > People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut bug
        > problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it eliminates
        some
        > major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
        > "opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical
        explanations
        > for why it works).
        >
        > DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.
        >
        > DMPS is far less of a problem.
        >
        > ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.
        >
        > People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem to do
        > pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who wait
        > for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It does
        > seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and most
        of
        > the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
        > terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
        > treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and going
        back
        > to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's multitudinous
        > posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using an 8
        > hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a lid
        on
        > things.
        >
        > Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems to
        work
        > better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect that
        > combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
        > effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to
        really
        > know.
        >
        > All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents that I
        > never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat
        yeast,
        > prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement. Most
        > naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even
        alternative
        > MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like
        Diflucan
        > on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin (and
        > oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS,
        probiotics
        > - about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
        > general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so
        powerful
        > it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will use
        > it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is much
        > better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh on
        the
        > patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding
        pharmacies
        > since it isn't FDA approved.
        >
        > So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big problem,
        it
        > is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
        > happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more problematic
        > than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
        > related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet or
        > supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I don't
        > r
      • Terri Avalon
        Quick correction. Biaxin is an antibiotic. Antibiotics do not work on viruses. Biaxin and any other antibiotic only work on bacterial infections. This is an
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Quick correction. Biaxin is an antibiotic. Antibiotics do not work on viruses. Biaxin and any other antibiotic only work on bacterial infections. This is an important fact for the general population to get because we are currently taking far too many antibiotics and many times we are taking them for viruses. This is not healthy for people nor for the environment.

          However, if these children are getting better on antibiotics, then there is some sort of bacterial infection going on. That should be easier to ascertain what the culprit bug is (bacteria is usually much easier to find than viruses).

          Terri


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: marib005
          To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:39 AM
          Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: Chelation protcol and gut bugs


          Andy,

          Regarding problems w/ the gut bugs. I believe the problem can be
          with the stealth virus. Maybe those that are affected by the stealth
          are experiencing problems with the gut bugs. I say this because Dr.
          Martin's protocol calls for 125mg of biaxin 2 x's a day, an
          antibiotic. This did not just improve Jack's receptive langauge it
          improved his his gastro function. I also know 2 other moms that felt
          the same way about the biaxin andseveral moms on this list have
          reported benefits from there child going on zithromax.
          I have also discovered that the houston enzymes are starving out the
          virus just like the biaxin. I was so impressed by the impact that
          the enzymes had on Jack relating to others that I called Dr. Martin
          and he agreed that they were probably lowering chemokines that feed
          the virus. I believe some children need a combination of the two
          protocols and I really wish that you would call and speak with Dr.
          Martin and see if you can make some sense out of all of this.

          Jack has been on your protocol for a year and 1/2. He has yeast but
          he has progressed with every cycle.

          Thanks,

          Marianne

          --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
          wrote:
          > > Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing bad
          > > problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut bugs
          > > becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause
          overall
          > > regression and ultimately delay chelation?
          >
          > No.
          >
          > I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:
          >
          > Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few people
          on
          > whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen in
          > person.
          >
          > The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct personal
          > experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also never
          did
          > any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be essential
          in
          > controlling these.
          >
          > I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
          > differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is controllable
          > can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW WHAT
          IT
          > IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
          >
          > The things I CAN tell you are:
          >
          > Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
          > inappropriately long administration interval makes these problems
          > tremendously worse.
          >
          > People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut bug
          > problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it eliminates
          some
          > major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
          > "opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical
          explanations
          > for why it works).
          >
          > DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.
          >
          > DMPS is far less of a problem.
          >
          > ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.
          >
          > People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem to do
          > pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who wait
          > for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It does
          > seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and most
          of
          > the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
          > terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
          > treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and going
          back
          > to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's multitudinous
          > posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using an 8
          > hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a lid
          on
          > things.
          >
          > Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems to
          work
          > better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect that
          > combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
          > effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to
          really
          > know.
          >
          > All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents that I
          > never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat
          yeast,
          > prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement. Most
          > naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even
          alternative
          > MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like
          Diflucan
          > on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin (and
          > oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS,
          probiotics
          > - about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
          > general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so
          powerful
          > it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will use
          > it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is much
          > better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh on
          the
          > patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding
          pharmacies
          > since it isn't FDA approved.
          >
          > So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big problem,
          it
          > is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
          > happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more problematic
          > than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
          > related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet or
          > supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I don't
          > r


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          ADVERTISEMENT



          =======================================================
          Statements posted on this list are for information only,
          and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
          medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
          authorized to give medical advice: doctors.

          Post message: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
          Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Unsubscribe: Autism-Mercury-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          List owner: Autism-Mercury-owner@yahoogroups.com
          Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
          Answers to common questions:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Mercury-Autism%20FAQ

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Scott Sandford
          Dear Andy (and anyone else who is interested): In trolling PubMed/Medline I found the following article: The Hair-Organ Relationship in Mercury Concentration
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Andy (and anyone else who is interested):

            In trolling PubMed/Medline I found the following article:

            The Hair-Organ Relationship in Mercury Concentration in Contemporary
            Japanese
            by T. Suzuki et al
            Journal: Arch Environ health, vol 48, issue 4

            link


            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
            ds=8357270&dopt=Abstract

            you can view the abstract there.

            I quote from the last line of the conclusions:

            "In conclusion, we can predict the organ mercury level at a fairly good
            level of probablity in the cases of THg and MeHg from hair mercury with
            speciation of the chemical form of mercury; however, perdiction occurs at
            lesser probablities for IHg."

            The article pays a lot attention to Se concentrations as it relates to organ
            concentrations.

            It would be worth you taking a look at, as it certainly draws a very strong
            connection between hair and organ mercury - for those of us who have to
            "fight" with our GPs.

            FWIW

            scott
          • marib005
            Terri, The biaxin is and antibiotic but the way it works on the virus is: it lowers the chemokines that feed the virus. It does not work on a bacteria or on
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Terri,
              The biaxin is and antibiotic but the way it works on the virus is: it
              lowers the chemokines that feed the virus. It does not work on a
              bacteria or on the virus directly, it starves the virus. I think the
              virus is fed through the RNA channel. I am by no means an expert. I
              have triied enough supplements one at a time to know what is being
              addressed in my son. A good explanation of this is on the
              www.ccid.org.

              It has been very difficult for me to keep Jack on an antibiotic and
              acyclovir(another part of of the protocol), knowing they have their
              bad points but it is better than what this virus is doing to his body
              and mind. I do supplement w/ acidopholis frequently and his stools
              have been great. I am doing what I think is best for my son and I
              only share the information because I know how awful this illness is
              and I believe this information can help others.

              Marianne


              --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "Terri Avalon" <tavalon@e...> wrote:
              > Quick correction. Biaxin is an antibiotic. Antibiotics do not work
              on viruses. Biaxin and any other antibiotic only work on bacterial
              infections. This is an important fact for the general population to
              get because we are currently taking far too many antibiotics and many
              times we are taking them for viruses. This is not healthy for people
              nor for the environment.
              >
              > However, if these children are getting better on antibiotics, then
              there is some sort of bacterial infection going on. That should be
              easier to ascertain what the culprit bug is (bacteria is usually much
              easier to find than viruses).
              >
              > Terri
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: marib005
              > To: Autism-Mercury@y...
              > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:39 AM
              > Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: Chelation protcol and gut bugs
              >
              >
              > Andy,
              >
              > Regarding problems w/ the gut bugs. I believe the problem can be
              > with the stealth virus. Maybe those that are affected by the
              stealth
              > are experiencing problems with the gut bugs. I say this because
              Dr.
              > Martin's protocol calls for 125mg of biaxin 2 x's a day, an
              > antibiotic. This did not just improve Jack's receptive langauge
              it
              > improved his his gastro function. I also know 2 other moms that
              felt
              > the same way about the biaxin andseveral moms on this list have
              > reported benefits from there child going on zithromax.
              > I have also discovered that the houston enzymes are starving out
              the
              > virus just like the biaxin. I was so impressed by the impact
              that
              > the enzymes had on Jack relating to others that I called Dr.
              Martin
              > and he agreed that they were probably lowering chemokines that
              feed
              > the virus. I believe some children need a combination of the two
              > protocols and I really wish that you would call and speak with
              Dr.
              > Martin and see if you can make some sense out of all of this.
              >
              > Jack has been on your protocol for a year and 1/2. He has yeast
              but
              > he has progressed with every cycle.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Marianne
              >
              > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
              > wrote:
              > > > Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing
              bad
              > > > problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut
              bugs
              > > > becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause
              > overall
              > > > regression and ultimately delay chelation?
              > >
              > > No.
              > >
              > > I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:
              > >
              > > Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few
              people
              > on
              > > whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen
              in
              > > person.
              > >
              > > The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct
              personal
              > > experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also
              never
              > did
              > > any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be
              essential
              > in
              > > controlling these.
              > >
              > > I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
              > > differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is
              controllable
              > > can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW
              WHAT
              > IT
              > > IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
              > >
              > > The things I CAN tell you are:
              > >
              > > Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
              > > inappropriately long administration interval makes these
              problems
              > > tremendously worse.
              > >
              > > People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut
              bug
              > > problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it
              eliminates
              > some
              > > major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
              > > "opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical
              > explanations
              > > for why it works).
              > >
              > > DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.
              > >
              > > DMPS is far less of a problem.
              > >
              > > ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.
              > >
              > > People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem
              to do
              > > pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who
              wait
              > > for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It
              does
              > > seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and
              most
              > of
              > > the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
              > > terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
              > > treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and
              going
              > back
              > > to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's
              multitudinous
              > > posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using
              an 8
              > > hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a
              lid
              > on
              > > things.
              > >
              > > Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems
              to
              > work
              > > better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect
              that
              > > combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
              > > effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to
              > really
              > > know.
              > >
              > > All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents
              that I
              > > never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat
              > yeast,
              > > prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement.
              Most
              > > naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even
              > alternative
              > > MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like
              > Diflucan
              > > on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin
              (and
              > > oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS,
              > probiotics
              > > - about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
              > > general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so
              > powerful
              > > it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will
              use
              > > it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is
              much
              > > better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh
              on
              > the
              > > patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding
              > pharmacies
              > > since it isn't FDA approved.
              > >
              > > So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big
              problem,
              > it
              > > is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
              > > happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more
              problematic
              > > than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
              > > related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet
              or
              > > supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I
              don't
              > > r
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              > =======================================================
              > Statements posted on this list are for information only,
              > and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
              > medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
              > authorized to give medical advice: doctors.
              >
              > Post message: Autism-Mercury@y...
              > Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@y...
              > Unsubscribe: Autism-Mercury-unsubscribe@y...
              > List owner: Autism-Mercury-owner@y...
              > Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
              > Answers to common questions:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Mercury-Autism%
              20FAQ
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Terri Avalon
              Interesting. I hadn t thought about that one. I ll look that one up too. Thanks. Terri ... From: marib005 To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 23, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Interesting. I hadn't thought about that one. I'll look that one up too. Thanks.

                Terri
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: marib005
                To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:51 PM
                Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: Chelation protcol and gut bugs


                Terri,
                The biaxin is and antibiotic but the way it works on the virus is: it
                lowers the chemokines that feed the virus. It does not work on a
                bacteria or on the virus directly, it starves the virus. I think the
                virus is fed through the RNA channel. I am by no means an expert. I
                have triied enough supplements one at a time to know what is being
                addressed in my son. A good explanation of this is on the
                www.ccid.org.

                It has been very difficult for me to keep Jack on an antibiotic and
                acyclovir(another part of of the protocol), knowing they have their
                bad points but it is better than what this virus is doing to his body
                and mind. I do supplement w/ acidopholis frequently and his stools
                have been great. I am doing what I think is best for my son and I
                only share the information because I know how awful this illness is
                and I believe this information can help others.

                Marianne


                --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "Terri Avalon" <tavalon@e...> wrote:
                > Quick correction. Biaxin is an antibiotic. Antibiotics do not work
                on viruses. Biaxin and any other antibiotic only work on bacterial
                infections. This is an important fact for the general population to
                get because we are currently taking far too many antibiotics and many
                times we are taking them for viruses. This is not healthy for people
                nor for the environment.
                >
                > However, if these children are getting better on antibiotics, then
                there is some sort of bacterial infection going on. That should be
                easier to ascertain what the culprit bug is (bacteria is usually much
                easier to find than viruses).
                >
                > Terri
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: marib005
                > To: Autism-Mercury@y...
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 11:39 AM
                > Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: Chelation protcol and gut bugs
                >
                >
                > Andy,
                >
                > Regarding problems w/ the gut bugs. I believe the problem can be
                > with the stealth virus. Maybe those that are affected by the
                stealth
                > are experiencing problems with the gut bugs. I say this because
                Dr.
                > Martin's protocol calls for 125mg of biaxin 2 x's a day, an
                > antibiotic. This did not just improve Jack's receptive langauge
                it
                > improved his his gastro function. I also know 2 other moms that
                felt
                > the same way about the biaxin andseveral moms on this list have
                > reported benefits from there child going on zithromax.
                > I have also discovered that the houston enzymes are starving out
                the
                > virus just like the biaxin. I was so impressed by the impact
                that
                > the enzymes had on Jack relating to others that I called Dr.
                Martin
                > and he agreed that they were probably lowering chemokines that
                feed
                > the virus. I believe some children need a combination of the two
                > protocols and I really wish that you would call and speak with
                Dr.
                > Martin and see if you can make some sense out of all of this.
                >
                > Jack has been on your protocol for a year and 1/2. He has yeast
                but
                > he has progressed with every cycle.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Marianne
                >
                > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
                > wrote:
                > > > Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing
                bad
                > > > problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut
                bugs
                > > > becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause
                > overall
                > > > regression and ultimately delay chelation?
                > >
                > > No.
                > >
                > > I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:
                > >
                > > Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few
                people
                > on
                > > whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen
                in
                > > person.
                > >
                > > The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct
                personal
                > > experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also
                never
                > did
                > > any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be
                essential
                > in
                > > controlling these.
                > >
                > > I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
                > > differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is
                controllable
                > > can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW
                WHAT
                > IT
                > > IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
                > >
                > > The things I CAN tell you are:
                > >
                > > Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
                > > inappropriately long administration interval makes these
                problems
                > > tremendously worse.
                > >
                > > People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut
                bug
                > > problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it
                eliminates
                > some
                > > major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
                > > "opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical
                > explanations
                > > for why it works).
                > >
                > > DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.
                > >
                > > DMPS is far less of a problem.
                > >
                > > ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.
                > >
                > > People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem
                to do
                > > pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who
                wait
                > > for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It
                does
                > > seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and
                most
                > of
                > > the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
                > > terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
                > > treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and
                going
                > back
                > > to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's
                multitudinous
                > > posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using
                an 8
                > > hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a
                lid
                > on
                > > things.
                > >
                > > Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems
                to
                > work
                > > better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect
                that
                > > combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
                > > effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to
                > really
                > > know.
                > >
                > > All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents
                that I
                > > never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat
                > yeast,
                > > prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement.
                Most
                > > naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even
                > alternative
                > > MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like
                > Diflucan
                > > on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin
                (and
                > > oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS,
                > probiotics
                > > - about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
                > > general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so
                > powerful
                > > it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will
                use
                > > it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is
                much
                > > better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh
                on
                > the
                > > patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding
                > pharmacies
                > > since it isn't FDA approved.
                > >
                > > So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big
                problem,
                > it
                > > is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
                > > happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more
                problematic
                > > than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
                > > related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet
                or
                > > supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I
                don't
                > > r
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                > =======================================================
                > Statements posted on this list are for information only,
                > and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
                > medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
                > authorized to give medical advice: doctors.
                >
                > Post message: Autism-Mercury@y...
                > Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@y...
                > Unsubscribe: Autism-Mercury-unsubscribe@y...
                > List owner: Autism-Mercury-owner@y...
                > Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
                > Answers to common questions:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Mercury-Autism%
                20FAQ
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT



                =======================================================
                Statements posted on this list are for information only,
                and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
                medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
                authorized to give medical advice: doctors.

                Post message: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe: Autism-Mercury-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner: Autism-Mercury-owner@yahoogroups.com
                Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
                Answers to common questions:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Mercury-Autism%20FAQ

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • romkemas
                Craig has only had a mild problem with candida, which we only discovered through testing, not behavior issues. But . . . we did the GFCF diet for a year
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 24, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Craig has only had a mild problem with candida, which we only discovered
                  through testing, not behavior issues. But . . . we did the GFCF diet for a
                  year before we chelated, and a lot of his belchiness went away that year.
                  Do you suppose that makes any difference?
                  Barb
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: andrewhallcutler <AndyCutler@...>
                  To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com <Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:19 AM
                  Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Chelation protcol and gut bugs


                  >> Some DAN doctors are switching from DMSA / ALA to MT citing bad
                  >> problems with gut bugs. In your experience, do you see gut bugs
                  >> becoming unmangeable problems that mask all progress / cause overall
                  >> regression and ultimately delay chelation?
                  >
                  >No.
                  >
                  >I am "going nuts" quietly because of the following conundrum:
                  >
                  >Everyone reports horrible gut bug problems INCLUDING a few people on
                  >whose cases I consult to their doc's, but whom I have not seen in
                  >person.
                  >
                  >The limited number of people whose chelation I have direct personal
                  >experience with never had any gut bug problems. They also never did
                  >any of the stuff like GFCF diets that are supposed to be essential in
                  >controlling these.
                  >
                  >I am desparately trying to figure out what ELSE they were doing
                  >differently, since it is clear to me SOMETHING that is controllable
                  >can make the gut bug problem MUCH less severe and I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT
                  >IS!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
                  >
                  >The things I CAN tell you are:
                  >
                  >Using an inappropriately high DMSA dose or especially an
                  >inappropriately long administration interval makes these problems
                  >tremendously worse.
                  >
                  >People on sulfur restricted diets don't seem to ever have gut bug
                  >problems (which is my suspicion why GFCFSF works - it eliminates some
                  >major sulfur sources from the diet as well as eliminating the
                  >"opioids" which are only one of the possible theoretical explanations
                  >for why it works).
                  >
                  >DMSA is by far the biggest offender in stirring the problems up.
                  >
                  >DMPS is far less of a problem.
                  >
                  >ALA is also much less of a problem than DMSA.
                  >
                  >People who expect the problem and treat prophylactically seem to do
                  >pretty well, regardless of chelation schedule, while those who wait
                  >for it to get out of control seem to have horrible times. It does
                  >seem like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and most of
                  >the stories I have heard about DAN! doctor patients who have a
                  >terrible time involve chelating until they are regressing, THEN
                  >treating the gut bugs, then stopping gut bug treatment and going back
                  >to chelation, and repeating the cycle. Read Dana's multitudinous
                  >posts for how I think it SHOULD be done, and note she is using an 8
                  >hour chelation cycle and not having any real problem keeping a lid on
                  >things.
                  >
                  >Using a lot of the OTC products in combination actually seems to work
                  >better in most instances than using an Rx product. I suspect that
                  >combination treatment with Rx + OTC products would be extremely
                  >effective, but I don't think people have tried this enough to really
                  >know.
                  >
                  >All the naturopathic doc's I talk to about yeast use agents that I
                  >never hear of being used on these kids. ND's basically treat yeast,
                  >prescribe armour thyroid and do female hormone replacement. Most
                  >naturopaths treat more yeast problems in a month than even alternative
                  >MD's have ever seen. They have no desire to get things like Diflucan
                  >on their formularies, though they do routinely use Nystatin (and
                  >oregano oil, rosemary oil, coconut oil, caprylic acid, FOS, probiotics
                  >- about which they are VERY particular as to strain - etc. The
                  >general comment on grapefruit seed extract is that it is so powerful
                  >it kills EVERYTHING if you aren't careful so not all ND's will use
                  >it). Also from what I have heard from the ND's tinidazole is much
                  >better for clostridia than metronidazole, and much less harsh on the
                  >patient. You get it in Mexico or from certain compounding pharmacies
                  >since it isn't FDA approved.
                  >
                  >So my response to the "gut bug" thing is that it IS a big problem, it
                  >is more of a problem in children than adults, but SOMETHING is
                  >happening that I don't understand to make it a lot more problematic
                  >than it needs to be. I really suspect a lot of it is protocol
                  >related, and most of the rest related to SOMETHING in the diet or
                  >supplements I haven't yet identified. But at this point I don't
                  >r
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >=======================================================
                  >Statements posted on this list are for information only,
                  >and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
                  >medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
                  >authorized to give medical advice: doctors.
                  >
                  >Post message: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >Unsubscribe: Autism-Mercury-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >List owner: Autism-Mercury-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
                  >Answers to common questions:
                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/Mercury-Autism%20FAQ
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.