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Andy: DMPS question (was Re: FIRST IV CHELATION TREATMENT

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  • andrewhallcutler
    ... 3% ... Moria, Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any mercury
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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      --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "moriamerri" <moriam@e...> wrote:
      > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
      > wrote, in part:
      > > Monthly DMPS
      > > injections only increase the rate at which you excrete mercury by
      3%
      > > over not taking anything. You can increase it 100% or more with
      > > proper oral chelation. DMPS also does not remove mercury from the
      > > internal organs.
      >
      > Andy, could you please explain this a little more? I thought
      > that both DMPS and DMSA would clear the body organs.
      >
      > thanks.
      > Moria

      Moria,

      Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
      OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
      mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
      Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
      barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
      they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
      they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
      extracellular mercury is mopped up.

      Andy . . . .. . . . .
    • TwoTonks@aol.com
      I know ALA crosses the BBB barrier, but other than that, is the same (as below) true for ALA as well? Does ALA also only go after stuff on the mercury on the
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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        I know ALA crosses the BBB barrier, but other than that, is the same (as
        below) true for ALA as well? Does ALA also only go after stuff on the mercury
        on the outside of cells? And is the statement below true of other toxic
        metals in addition to mercury (like arsenic, antimony, etc.)?

        Thanks,
        Debbie

        In a message dated 7/19/2002 3:24:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
        AndyCutler@... writes:


        > Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
        > OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
        > mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
        > Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
        > barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
        > they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
        > they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
        > extracellular mercury is mopped up.
        >
        > Andy . . . .. . . . .



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • K Mueller
        ... so true, I agree with you here. ... Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it s as easy as taking a pee. our son isnt 3 yet and
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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          Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com wrote:

          > -Message: 18
          > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:51:14 -0000
          > From: "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@...>
          > Subject: Re: chelation protocols aren't all the same!
          >
          > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "maraniea" <maranie@b...> wrote:
          > > Andy--
          > " Then he points out that getting up and
          > chelating isn't any harder than that and the light bulb goes on that
          > they have an emotional problem with someone telling them to get up,
          > not any kind of real problem with being able to do it if there is a
          > reason."
          >

          so true, I agree with you here.

          >
          > > We as parents are willing to stay up
          > > every night if possible-- and the majority of parents would get up
          > > every two hours if it meant recovering our kids.
          >
          > I agree. Which makes it amazing to me how many never give frequent
          > dosing a try because they get upset about doing something that is
          > easier than getting up to pee.
          >

          Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it's as easy as taking a pee.
          our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.

          It's really not so bad because we have adapted

          I get it ready at 12AM

          I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix it with filtered or distilled water.
          (it draws better mixed with some water)
          I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of the rest.

          I put the 2ml applesauce/water mix into a small container
          add succimer/ALA
          a drop of kirkman's cherry flavoring
          (optional) at times Ive had to add 0.5mg of melatonin
          maybe another drop of water
          draw it back up into the syringe
          store in frig till 4AM

          IF he has his head right when he's sleeping, it's as easy as walking into the kitchen to get a snack or drink
          I just walk right in squirt it into his mouth and go back to bed
          keeping the total amount to just 2-3ml keeps him from gagging and waking
          do it quick and he swallows almost involuntarily

          If he doesn't have his head right, you give it slow or you give him more than 4ml...
          there have been a few times he wouldnt go back to sleep

          Keith
        • andrewhallcutler
          ... or distilled water. ... I used yoghurt with the stuff sprinkled on top and more yoghurt on top of that. Andy . . .. .
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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            > I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix it with filtered
            or distilled water.
            > (it draws better mixed with some water)
            > I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of the rest.

            I used yoghurt with the stuff sprinkled on top and more yoghurt on top
            of that.

            Andy . . .. .
          • Max Salinas
            For me, I d say it s about twice the difficulty of a pee; so about the same as a pee-pee (ba boom BOOM) Seriously, we ve found a simple recipe that makes the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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              For me, I'd say it's about twice the difficulty of a
              pee; so about the same as a pee-pee (ba boom BOOM)

              Seriously, we've found a simple recipe that makes the
              DMSA acceptable is to just mix it with a citrus drink
              (we use Five-Alive). We use a 10cc syringe with the
              threaded tip, a butterfly needle that has been cut up
              so that all that remains is 3/4 inches or so of hose
              to screw to the end of the syringe, and a 3 tsp
              measuring cup (or better yet a mini squirt bottle).

              So alarm goes off at 4:26 AM (say)... I go to the
              kitchen, take out a DMSA capsule from the container,
              and pour 1 tsp juice into measuring cup. I then
              pickup the syringe (without the plunger) and hold it
              so that the tip of my pinkie dams up the tip and in
              such a way that I still have limited use of my index
              finger and thumb of that same hand. I then pour about
              half the juice in the syringe, followed by opening and
              pouring the DMSA capsule contents (using my free hand
              and the limited assistance from my index finger and
              thumb of the hand plugging up the syringe), followed
              by the rest of the juice. I then replace the plunger
              part way and shake to mix. Lastly, I screw on the
              hose remnants of my butterfly. At this time I refill
              my measuring cup with water.

              I take my DMSA mixture and the water in the measuring
              cup to my son's room. I find he has to be lying on
              his back in order to avoid spillage, and strangely
              enough I usually have better luck if he is not already
              on his back when I find him because the turning him
              over wakes him up just enough to dose him easily. If
              he is on his back already, I rub his cheek or some
              such to just start to wake him up. He needs to be
              just conscious enough to effectively 'ask' for the
              medicine (when he feels the little hose on his lips)
              by opening his mouth and swallowing when I give it to
              him. I usually give it to him in stages so he gets
              about 1/2 tsp per swallow. After getting all the DMSA
              into him, I suck up water from the measuring cup into
              the syringe and give him a good 1 1/2 tsp or so to
              both rinse his mouth a little and to catch any last
              bits of DMSA that may have remained in the syringe.

              Finally, I return to the kitchen and rinse all the
              items out and place them on a towel to dry and be
              ready to go for the subsequent dose.

              Back in bed by around 4:32 usually...

              Sorry this is so long, but now I have it recorded for
              when night dosing questions come up.

              Max

              > Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST)
              > and tell me it's as easy as taking a pee.
              > our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.
              >
              > It's really not so bad because we have adapted
              >
              > I get it ready at 12AM
              >
              > I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix
              > it with filtered or distilled water.
              > (it draws better mixed with some water)
              > I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of
              > the rest.
              >
              > I put the 2ml applesauce/water mix into a small
              > container
              > add succimer/ALA
              > a drop of kirkman's cherry flavoring
              > (optional) at times Ive had to add 0.5mg of
              > melatonin
              > maybe another drop of water
              > draw it back up into the syringe
              > store in frig till 4AM
              >
              > IF he has his head right when he's sleeping, it's as
              > easy as walking into the kitchen to get a snack or
              > drink
              > I just walk right in squirt it into his mouth and go
              > back to bed
              > keeping the total amount to just 2-3ml keeps him
              > from gagging and waking
              > do it quick and he swallows almost involuntarily
              >
              > If he doesn't have his head right, you give it slow
              > or you give him more than 4ml...
              > there have been a few times he wouldnt go back to
              > sleep
              >
              > Keith
              >


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            • moriamerri
              Hi Barbara, Just wanted to say thanks for the status update. Best wishes with it all. Moria ... became ... mercury ... and
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                Hi Barbara, Just wanted to say thanks for the status update.
                Best wishes with it all.

                Moria


                --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "barbylittle" <barbylittle@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Moria and others who answered my message on Tuesday:
                >
                > Thank you for your responses. We went to our first appt. yesterday,
                > and had a good discussion with Dr. Patel beforehand. We decided to
                > go ahead with the treatment. It went well after my son's initial
                > fears were allayed. He did well; it took about 2 hours and he
                became
                > a little restless toward the end, but all in all his behavior was
                > very good.
                >
                > Christopher is not a good candidate for oral chelation as the
                mercury
                > levels are too high for oral chelation to help. After a minimum of
                > 10 treatments, we will consider going to oral chelation, but not
                > now. We also discussed infrared saunas, however, she does not
                > recommend them at this point. I called Dr. Doris Rapp who is a
                > colleague of Dr. Patel's and the author of IS THIS YOUR CHILD? She
                > was very reassuring that Dr. Patel would be the best person to help
                > us and we should take her advice.
                >
                > Christopher had a HUGE appetite last night and slept very well. He
                > woke up this morning bright, happy, hungary, and well. We are
                > watching for any regression or changes in him, but so far so good.
                > He has Early Intervention preschool - summer session this morning
                and
                > he was anxious to go.
                >
                > Please remember that although he has many autistic traits to a
                > greater or lesser degree, he is not diagnosed as autistic, just
                > Disruptive Behavior Disorder, Sensory Integration Dysfunction,
                > Oculormotor Dysfunction, Inhalent and Food Allergies, Multiple
                > Chemical Sensitivity, and Heavy Metal Toxicity. His verbal and
                > social skills are quite high functioning. Perhaps that makes a
                > difference in determining what works best.
                >
                > I will continue to monitor your group for information, and I will
                > continue to share our experiences with you. Hopefully it will be
                > helpful to someone.
                >
                > Best wishes,
                >
                > Barbara Little
              • moriamerri
                Hi Barbara, I m just rereading yesterday s posts (I only scanned yesterday)--- I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA comment the first
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                  Hi Barbara,

                  I'm just rereading yesterday's posts (I only scanned yesterday)---
                  I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA
                  comment the first time around...

                  > I am new to this group. Please tell me your
                  > background and expertise. I want to understand, but
                  > this is a lot to digest and I'm very concerned.
                  > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                  > "infused" mean?

                  Um, I don't see this word in Andy's post== but maybe it
                  was used elsewhere regarding Christopher's treatments?
                  Relative to making tea, an infusion is when you pour
                  boiling water over herbs/plants and let them steep.
                  The result is an infusion. The tea was made by infusion.
                  I'm sure it has other meanings, but that is the meaning
                  in my vocabulary. Of course, I'm not Andy.

                  >Also, DMPS was not used, his
                  > treatment used EDTA?

                  yeah, see I missed this comment before. I'm so sorry but
                  I get to be the baddie here again and tell you that EDTA is
                  a poor chelator of mercury. I just checked ANDY_INDEX and
                  there are 2 posts about EDTA in the section on "other things
                  as detox agents" -- so you can look this up if you want to
                  see what Andy says there:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/ANDY_INDEX

                  > Can you define both of them for
                  > me? What is the difference?

                  I can't tell you what EDTA stands for, but it is used mostly
                  to chelate cholesterol/plaque out of arteries. Like for
                  heart disease. IV's of EDTA. It is true that some practitioners
                  who use EDTA do believe it is also useful for chelating
                  all or many of the heavy metals. However, it is NOT a
                  good chelator of mercury.

                  Whereas DMPS *is* a good chelator of mercury. (from the body
                  but not brain.)

                  You can read the section in ANDY_INDEX on DMPS if you want.
                  The general section on chelators (ALA, DMSA, DMPS) might also
                  be helpful.

                  >
                  > Christopher's test results were from a battery of
                  > blood and urine tests done at Dr. Patel's office and
                  > processed through Great Smokie's, Metamatrix, Doctor's
                  > Data and the hospital lab near the doctor's office.
                  > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in
                  > his urine.

                  You may want to do a hair test. Or you may not--- since
                  you have already decided to chelate you don't need it for
                  that decision. However it will tell you other useful things.
                  Like what other metals may be high, and whether copper is
                  high, etc.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/HOW_TO_hair_test


                  > Christopher loves tuna, he had been eating it almost
                  > every week, usually as a sandwich for lunch on Friday.

                  Tuna does collect mercury. :(

                  > I grew up in a home that was heated via coal furnace
                  > all my life until I was 21 years old. Then I moved
                  > back home when I was 26 and lived there until I was
                  > 32. Christopher's older grown up brother has
                  > Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The cancer rate as well as
                  > the ADHD rate in our small city is considered high
                  > from what I hear although I do not have any statistics
                  > to quote for you. The psychologist at our Elem.
                  > school grades K-5 tells me that 25% of the approx. 500
                  > students in the school are on ritalin or some other
                  > form of stimulent medication for attention problems.

                  :(

                  Also, I am sorry if the information on this list is
                  distressing. I know the whole thing is a lot to absorb
                  (even if it is NOT in conflict with other info you are
                  getting from trusted people.)

                  best wishes,
                  Moria
                  [not Andy]
                • moriamerri
                  ... frequent ... as easy as taking a pee. ... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I m with you on this Keith, and I only had to swallow the pills MYSELF at 3 am (not get a
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                    --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., K Mueller <tomato@k...> wrote:

                    > > I agree. Which makes it amazing to me how many never give
                    frequent
                    > > dosing a try because they get upset about doing something that is
                    > > easier than getting up to pee.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it's
                    as easy as taking a pee.
                    > our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.

                    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
                    I'm with you on this Keith, and I only had to swallow the
                    pills MYSELF at 3 am (not get a child to take stuff).
                    For me it is MUCH MUCH more disruptive to wake up TO AN
                    ALARM at some weird time of the morning than to get up
                    and pee. Really messes with my sleep cycles. Caused
                    a lot of sleepiness in the daytime.

                    Moria
                  • Madeline Villasante
                    Hi, my is 4 and high functioning( i don t know to much about this term and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                      Hi,
                      my is 4 and high functioning( i don't know to much about this term and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but going step by step his socialization with other children still poor. any ideas on this.
                      i am like you trying to decide about chelation and it scares me so much, we got his hair analysis results and it is very bad news a lot of toxic metals. any info on chelation as what shoud be checked prior going to chelate will help.
                      thanks.
                      silvia
                      andrewhallcutler <AndyCutler@...> wrote: --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Lynne Arnold <lsarnold@e...> wrote:
                      > This may just seem like semantics, but a diagnosis of "autism" isn't
                      really
                      > all that meaningful because it simply describes a set of behaviors.
                      Autism
                      > is a syndrome, not a disease. That's why many physicians use the
                      term
                      > "autism spectrum disorder." From what you have described your son
                      isn't
                      > classically autistic, but he is on the spectrum.
                      >
                      > Your son sounds a lot like my son. The neuropsych says he is not
                      autistic,
                      > yet he also has a host of autistic tendencies and is high
                      functioning. At
                      > this point, I am well beyond concerning myself with labels. We also
                      read
                      > Doris Rapp's book and then called her office for a referral. We were
                      sent to
                      > her friend in California, John Wakefield for testing. Now we're
                      seeing Dr.
                      > McCandless and are getting ready for chelation.
                      >
                      > As far as know (I'm no chelation expert), that our sons are high
                      functioning
                      > does not make a difference in determining their chelation protocol.

                      Correct.

                      > The DAN!
                      > protocol was developed to minimize risk of organ damage and maximize
                      metal
                      > detoxification.

                      The DAN! protocol was not developed with any concern for any of these
                      things. A few doc's started chelating people with DMSA and ALA on an
                      every 4 hour protocol and got good results. Then they showed up at
                      the DAN! think tank and everyone was really excited and decided to use
                      DMSA and ALA even though most of the doc's there had never used this
                      combination before. But the doc's who had used it and got these great
                      results had been having to spend a lot of time arguing with parents to
                      get them to get up in the middle of the night, so all the doc's there
                      decided that since none of them understood why it should make any
                      difference, that it must not, and every 8 hours would be fine. Of
                      course it isn't (See poll results in the polls section) but then it is
                      unreasonable to expect them to develop a rational protocol when very
                      few of them had been doing it with ALA and DMSA despite years of
                      experience in chelation, and none of them even knew why it made a
                      difference how often chelators are given.

                      In fact, most versions of the DAN! protocol as prescribed by DAN!
                      doctors are quite harmful to the child's brain and gastrointestinal
                      tract which is why they talk a lot about a healing crisis.
                      >
                      > I look forward to hearing how your son does with IV chelations as
                      I'm
                      > interested in all perspectives.

                      I certainly hope you are lucky enough that you don't generate another
                      story to go on www.dmpsbackfire.com. Chelation can be DANGEROUS if
                      done improperly. DMPS injections are about the least proper way to do
                      it I can imagine. . . . .. . .



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                    • Terri Avalon
                      I m only going to respond to the question around infused or infusion as the rest of it was addressed by Moria. I don t like throwing my credentials around but
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                        I'm only going to respond to the question around infused or infusion as the rest of it was addressed by Moria. I don't like throwing my credentials around but I will mention it in this instance so you can have confidence in my answer( I am an RN). Infusion in this instance likely means the method of administration of the medication -intravenous infusion (fluid given through an IV). We use the term fairly regularly and this is a fine example of how our lingo, so familiar to us, can sound like Greek to laypeople. We use the term as a verb as well, i.e., the medication infused, is infusing well with no sign of infiltration (infiltration is when the IV catheter or IV needle moves out of the vein and the medicine starts getting into the tissue around the vein - often causing some irritation or even injury to the tissue).

                        So while I don't have the full documentation here to be able to tell for sure if that is the context in which infused was used, I am over 90% confident that that is what was meant.

                        I'd like to take a moment here to mention that it is okay to call your health care provider and ask these questions. I'm afraid we are often so steeped in this lingo that we forget that it isn't obvious. But it isn't obvious. And you guys have enough to deal with just handling the details of autism and mercury toxicity, you shouldn't have to try to interpret our jargon as well.

                        Terri
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: moriamerri
                        To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 8:30 PM
                        Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: FIRST IV CHELATION TREATMENT


                        Hi Barbara,

                        I'm just rereading yesterday's posts (I only scanned yesterday)---
                        I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA
                        comment the first time around...

                        > I am new to this group. Please tell me your
                        > background and expertise. I want to understand, but
                        > this is a lot to digest and I'm very concerned.
                        > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                        > "infused" mean?

                        Um, I don't see this word in Andy's post== but maybe it
                        was used elsewhere regarding Christopher's treatments?
                        Relative to making tea, an infusion is when you pour
                        boiling water over herbs/plants and let them steep.
                        The result is an infusion. The tea was made by infusion.
                        I'm sure it has other meanings, but that is the meaning
                        in my vocabulary. Of course, I'm not Andy.

                        >Also, DMPS was not used, his
                        > treatment used EDTA?

                        yeah, see I missed this comment before. I'm so sorry but
                        I get to be the baddie here again and tell you that EDTA is
                        a poor chelator of mercury. I just checked ANDY_INDEX and
                        there are 2 posts about EDTA in the section on "other things
                        as detox agents" -- so you can look this up if you want to
                        see what Andy says there:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/ANDY_INDEX

                        > Can you define both of them for
                        > me? What is the difference?

                        I can't tell you what EDTA stands for, but it is used mostly
                        to chelate cholesterol/plaque out of arteries. Like for
                        heart disease. IV's of EDTA. It is true that some practitioners
                        who use EDTA do believe it is also useful for chelating
                        all or many of the heavy metals. However, it is NOT a
                        good chelator of mercury.

                        Whereas DMPS *is* a good chelator of mercury. (from the body
                        but not brain.)

                        You can read the section in ANDY_INDEX on DMPS if you want.
                        The general section on chelators (ALA, DMSA, DMPS) might also
                        be helpful.

                        >
                        > Christopher's test results were from a battery of
                        > blood and urine tests done at Dr. Patel's office and
                        > processed through Great Smokie's, Metamatrix, Doctor's
                        > Data and the hospital lab near the doctor's office.
                        > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in
                        > his urine.

                        You may want to do a hair test. Or you may not--- since
                        you have already decided to chelate you don't need it for
                        that decision. However it will tell you other useful things.
                        Like what other metals may be high, and whether copper is
                        high, etc.
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/HOW_TO_hair_test


                        > Christopher loves tuna, he had been eating it almost
                        > every week, usually as a sandwich for lunch on Friday.

                        Tuna does collect mercury. :(

                        > I grew up in a home that was heated via coal furnace
                        > all my life until I was 21 years old. Then I moved
                        > back home when I was 26 and lived there until I was
                        > 32. Christopher's older grown up brother has
                        > Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The cancer rate as well as
                        > the ADHD rate in our small city is considered high
                        > from what I hear although I do not have any statistics
                        > to quote for you. The psychologist at our Elem.
                        > school grades K-5 tells me that 25% of the approx. 500
                        > students in the school are on ritalin or some other
                        > form of stimulent medication for attention problems.

                        :(

                        Also, I am sorry if the information on this list is
                        distressing. I know the whole thing is a lot to absorb
                        (even if it is NOT in conflict with other info you are
                        getting from trusted people.)

                        best wishes,
                        Moria
                        [not Andy]


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                        =======================================================
                        Statements posted on this list are for information only,
                        and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
                        medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
                        authorized to give medical advice: doctors.

                        Post message: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                        Subscribe: Autism-Mercury-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        Shortcut URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury
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                      • danaatty
                        ... and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but going step by
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                          --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Madeline Villasante <dumivi@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          > my is 4 and high functioning( i don't know to much about this term
                          and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years
                          old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but
                          going step by step his socialization with other children still poor.
                          any ideas on this.


                          Here is my page on functioning levels, your child does sound high
                          functioning

                          http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/funclevl.htm


                          > i am like you trying to decide about chelation and it scares me so
                          much, we got his hair analysis results and it is very bad news a lot
                          of toxic metals. any info on chelation as what shoud be checked prior
                          going to chelate will help.


                          You can read my chelation overview page, if you are interested

                          http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/chelate.htm


                          >>hi,
                          that is what is happening to me i am getting very scare about DMSA
                          because of my doctor , please should i feel confident about it.
                          thanks
                          silvia


                          If you are afraid of DMSA because of your doctor, then you should
                          either use a different doctor, or don't use DMSA. I was not
                          comfortable with using DMSA so I don't use it, I use ALA only. You
                          can consider that if you want.

                          My son's story

                          http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/myson.htm

                          Dana
                        • maraniea
                          ... were ... horrifying ... Andy, Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                            Andy said:
                            >> So, Maranie, have you tried it both ways with your child? What
                            were
                            > the results? Or is the thought of getting up at night so
                            horrifying
                            > that you haven't even given it a try to find out if the benefits
                            > outweigh the costs in your child's case?"



                            Andy,

                            Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing
                            schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour dosing
                            for over a year-- and I wasn't horrified one bit.

                            Maranie
                          • andrewhallcutler
                            ... Well, in this case there is no reason for you to use 4 hour dosing instead of 8 hour dosing. Most people do find quite a difference when they try it both
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                              > have you tried it both ways with your child? What
                              > were the results?
                              >
                              > Andy,
                              >
                              > Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing
                              > schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour dosing
                              > for over a year-- and I wasn't horrified one bit.
                              >
                              > Maranie

                              Well, in this case there is no reason for you to use 4 hour dosing
                              instead of 8 hour dosing. Most people do find quite a difference when
                              they try it both ways and get much better results with 3-4 hour dosing
                              which of course then justifies its use. Those who don't find it helps
                              really don't need to use it and should not feel guilty about sleeping
                              soundly at night. I hope you are getting good progress and your child
                              is improving.

                              Andy . . .
                            • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                              Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury, arsenic and nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or DMPS only? No
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury, arsenic and
                                nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or DMPS only?
                                No other sources of exposure and no levels of metals showing in
                                non-provocated tests or in blood tests except when taken a week or so after a
                                chelation drug. Are the cells dumping the metals themselves and then DMSA or
                                DMPS picks it up or are these chelators going in and helping the body to
                                release the metals? There is no possible way that much heavy metals could be
                                floating around in the blood for more than two years or it would have shown
                                up in blood testing. These chelators have to aid in the cells releasing
                                these metals somehow.
                                Gaylen


                                In a message dated 7/19/02 3:24:51 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                AndyCutler@... writes:


                                > Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
                                > OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
                                > mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
                                > Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
                                > barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
                                > they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
                                > they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
                                > extracellular mercury is mopped up.
                                >
                                >




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                              • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                In a message dated 7/18/02 10:23:20 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Are you saying the IV took 2 hours? was this EDTA? If so, I m curious as to why your doc
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 7/18/02 10:23:20 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                  barbylittle@... writes:


                                  > it took about 2 hours and he became a little restless toward the end, but
                                  > all in all his behavior was very good.
                                  >

                                  Are you saying the IV took 2 hours? was this EDTA? If so, I'm curious as to
                                  why your doc chose that over DMPS which only takes about 10-20 minutes to
                                  administer and works better for mercury?
                                  Gaylen



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                                • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 7/19/02 2:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Where did you get this figure (1 in 6 end up with problems)? Gaylen [Non-text portions of this
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                    In a message dated 7/19/02 2:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                    AndyCutler@... writes:


                                    > Did she have any explanation as to why one person in 6 who tries DMPS
                                    > injections ends up like the people whose stories are on the
                                    > www.dmpsbackfire.com site?
                                    >

                                    Where did you get this figure (1 in 6 end up with problems)?
                                    Gaylen


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                                  • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 7/19/02 9:00:15 AM Central Daylight Time, ... This was adressed to Andy but I thought I d pitch in since I didn t see a clear answer from
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                      In a message dated 7/19/02 9:00:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                      barbylittle@... writes:


                                      > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                                      > "infused" mean?

                                      This was adressed to Andy but I thought I'd pitch in since I didn't see a
                                      clear answer from him yet. In layman's terms, it means that the medication
                                      was slowly placed into the body through a vein.


                                      >>> treatment used EDTA? Can you define both of
                                      > them for me? What is the difference?
                                      >

                                      Both are known chelators that can be given by IV or orally but chelate
                                      different metals/minerals. EDTA is best known for chelating calcium and
                                      plaque in the arteries plus I think it's also good at removing aluminum and
                                      lead, if I recall correctly. It is usually given by IV in a slow-drip method
                                      which can take up to two hours or more to infuse. You can take it orally as
                                      well but it isn't absorbed very well that way. Also, there have been some
                                      reports of EDTA combining with mercury in the body to form an even more toxic
                                      compound so some experts warn not to use EDTA for mercury toxic patients. I
                                      don't have the studies/reports to offer about this right now but some other
                                      folks on this list can probably direct you to that info.

                                      DMPS is best known to remove mercury and is also effective at chelating
                                      arsenic, nickel and many other toxic metals. It is given as an injection
                                      into the vein and takes between 10-20 minutes to infuse. You can also take
                                      it orally.


                                      > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in his urine.

                                      Given your descriptions of his exposures, this would make sense. Are you
                                      planning to move from the metals capital town or will he continue to be
                                      exposed? If the exposures will continue, you may be fighting a losing
                                      battle. We used to live in a toxic neighborhood too and had to move for our
                                      families' health. Hard decision but in hindsight, the best thing we ever did
                                      for our family. Best wishes,
                                      Gaylen



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                                    • andrewhallcutler
                                      ... arsenic and ... DMPS only? You would have seen these if you hadon t done the DMPS. See page 52 of my book - regardless of whether you chelate or not, your
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 23, 2002
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                                        > Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury,
                                        arsenic and
                                        > nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or
                                        DMPS only?

                                        You would have seen these if you hadon't done the DMPS.

                                        See page 52 of my book - regardless of whether you chelate or not,
                                        your body holds onto the toxins and dumps them later once you get it
                                        started. At least the bodies of the people who are susceptible to
                                        intoxication at low exposure levels do.

                                        > No other sources of exposure and no levels of metals showing in
                                        > non-provocated tests or in blood tests except when taken a week or
                                        so after a
                                        > chelation drug. Are the cells dumping the metals themselves and
                                        then DMSA or
                                        > DMPS picks it up or are these chelators going in and helping the
                                        body to
                                        > release the metals? There is no possible way that much heavy metals
                                        could be
                                        > floating around in the blood for more than two years or it would
                                        have shown
                                        > up in blood testing. These chelators have to aid in the cells
                                        releasing
                                        > these metals somehow.

                                        I'm not sure that they aid them routinely, or at all, but it is
                                        arguable that in cases like an exposed autistic kid without further
                                        exposure, that the chelator clears off the toxins clogging the outside
                                        of the mineral transport proteins on the cell surfaces and lets the
                                        cells finally dump what is inside. This is one theory that is "weak"
                                        in the sense of not having adequate support.

                                        With adults, where I have lots of cases every which way, it is
                                        strikingly clear that all DMPS injections do is cause adverse
                                        reactions - the people who do or don't use them have exactly the same
                                        overall course of symptoms and heavy metal excretion. I haven't seen
                                        enough children's tests to be sure of this, but it seems unlikely that
                                        it would magically be different when the alternative doc's who like
                                        DMPS are telling the same story about adults and children and it is
                                        clearly not true for adults.

                                        One of the major problems with this bogus split of the AMA religion
                                        into QuackWatch worhshipping, human sacrificing mainstream medicine
                                        and throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater alternative medicine that
                                        has to do it ALL different is simply that the "alternative" guys don't
                                        have professors at med schools doing studies, collecting cases, and
                                        providing some data so that they can figure out what is going on and
                                        what needs more work. Due to a profound lack of information a lot of
                                        time you just can't tell what is up.

                                        > Gaylen
                                        >

                                        Andy .
                                      • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 7/23/02 2:28:04 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I do believe this is true given the rounds of healing crisis times where people don t feel
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 25, 2002
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                                          In a message dated 7/23/02 2:28:04 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                          AndyCutler@... writes:


                                          > regardless of whether you chelate or not, your body holds onto the toxins
                                          > and dumps them later once you get it started. At least the bodies of the
                                          > people who are susceptible to intoxication at low exposure levels do.

                                          I do believe this is true given the rounds of "healing crisis" times where
                                          people don't feel well and then feel wonderful even when they are not
                                          chelating once the process gets started. We had many periods during off
                                          times where I'd swear we dumped tons of metals. However, I'd think you'd
                                          still want a chelator in your system fairly regularly to mop up what the
                                          cells dump and keep them from being redeposited elsewhere.


                                          > With adults, where I have lots of cases every which way, it is strikingly
                                          > clear that all DMPS injections do is cause adverse reactions - the people
                                          > who do or don't use them have exactly the same overall course of symptoms
                                          > and heavy metal excretion. I haven't seen enough children's tests to be
                                          > sure of this,

                                          I have seen a dramatic difference in the amount of metals (especially mercury
                                          and arsenic) showing up in urine and stool tests with DMPS injections
                                          compared to oral DMSA with the kids I've followed. I'm the only adult I
                                          know personally who has done IV DMPS but can say I didn't see as high an
                                          increase in output as I saw with the kids. Not sure if this is because
                                          adults are different or I was just not as toxic as the kids I've followed
                                          were.

                                          >> Due to a profound lack of information a lot of time you just can't tell
                                          > what is up.
                                          >
                                          True, and so we watch and guess and hope for the best :).
                                          Gaylen




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