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Re: chelation protocols aren't all the same!

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  • andrewhallcutler
    ... really ... Autism ... term ... isn t ... autistic, ... functioning. At ... read ... sent to ... seeing Dr. ... functioning ... Correct. ... metal ... The
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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      --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Lynne Arnold <lsarnold@e...> wrote:
      > This may just seem like semantics, but a diagnosis of "autism" isn't
      really
      > all that meaningful because it simply describes a set of behaviors.
      Autism
      > is a syndrome, not a disease. That's why many physicians use the
      term
      > "autism spectrum disorder." From what you have described your son
      isn't
      > classically autistic, but he is on the spectrum.
      >
      > Your son sounds a lot like my son. The neuropsych says he is not
      autistic,
      > yet he also has a host of autistic tendencies and is high
      functioning. At
      > this point, I am well beyond concerning myself with labels. We also
      read
      > Doris Rapp's book and then called her office for a referral. We were
      sent to
      > her friend in California, John Wakefield for testing. Now we're
      seeing Dr.
      > McCandless and are getting ready for chelation.
      >
      > As far as know (I'm no chelation expert), that our sons are high
      functioning
      > does not make a difference in determining their chelation protocol.

      Correct.

      > The DAN!
      > protocol was developed to minimize risk of organ damage and maximize
      metal
      > detoxification.

      The DAN! protocol was not developed with any concern for any of these
      things. A few doc's started chelating people with DMSA and ALA on an
      every 4 hour protocol and got good results. Then they showed up at
      the DAN! think tank and everyone was really excited and decided to use
      DMSA and ALA even though most of the doc's there had never used this
      combination before. But the doc's who had used it and got these great
      results had been having to spend a lot of time arguing with parents to
      get them to get up in the middle of the night, so all the doc's there
      decided that since none of them understood why it should make any
      difference, that it must not, and every 8 hours would be fine. Of
      course it isn't (See poll results in the polls section) but then it is
      unreasonable to expect them to develop a rational protocol when very
      few of them had been doing it with ALA and DMSA despite years of
      experience in chelation, and none of them even knew why it made a
      difference how often chelators are given.

      In fact, most versions of the DAN! protocol as prescribed by DAN!
      doctors are quite harmful to the child's brain and gastrointestinal
      tract which is why they talk a lot about a healing crisis.
      >
      > I look forward to hearing how your son does with IV chelations as
      I'm
      > interested in all perspectives.

      I certainly hope you are lucky enough that you don't generate another
      story to go on www.dmpsbackfire.com. Chelation can be DANGEROUS if
      done improperly. DMPS injections are about the least proper way to do
      it I can imagine. . . . .. . .
    • andrewhallcutler
      ... mercury ... This is incorrect and is a clear indication you need to find a real doctor before your kid gets hurt. Proper oral chelation removes mercury
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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        > Christopher is not a good candidate for oral chelation as the
        mercury
        > levels are too high for oral chelation to help.

        This is incorrect and is a clear indication you need to find a real
        doctor before your kid gets hurt. Proper oral chelation removes
        mercury MUCH faster than once a month IV chelation. Monthly DMPS
        injections only increase the rate at which you excrete mercury by 3%
        over not taking anything. You can increase it 100% or more with
        proper oral chelation. DMPS also does not remove mercury from the
        internal organs.

        Besides, how did the doc decide the mercury level was so high?

        > After a minimum of
        > 10 treatments, we will consider going to oral chelation, but not
        > now. We also discussed infrared saunas, however, she does not
        > recommend them at this point. I called Dr. Doris Rapp who is a
        > colleague of Dr. Patel's and the author of IS THIS YOUR CHILD? She
        > was very reassuring that Dr. Patel would be the best person to help
        > us and we should take her advice.

        Did she have any explanation as to why one person in 6 who tries DMPS
        injections ends up like the people whose stories are on the
        www.dmpsbackfire.com site?

        Andy . . . . ..
      • moriamerri
        ... Andy, could you please explain this a little more? I thought that both DMPS and DMSA would clear the body organs. thanks. Moria
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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          --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
          wrote, in part:
          > Monthly DMPS
          > injections only increase the rate at which you excrete mercury by 3%
          > over not taking anything. You can increase it 100% or more with
          > proper oral chelation. DMPS also does not remove mercury from the
          > internal organs.

          Andy, could you please explain this a little more? I thought
          that both DMPS and DMSA would clear the body organs.

          thanks.
          Moria
        • Barbara Little
          Dear Andy: I am new to this group. Please tell me your background and expertise. I want to understand, but this is a lot to digest and I m very concerned.
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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            Dear Andy:

            I am new to this group. Please tell me your
            background and expertise. I want to understand, but
            this is a lot to digest and I'm very concerned.
            Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
            "infused" mean? Also, DMPS was not used, his
            treatment used EDTA? Can you define both of them for
            me? What is the difference?

            Christopher's test results were from a battery of
            blood and urine tests done at Dr. Patel's office and
            processed through Great Smokie's, Metamatrix, Doctor's
            Data and the hospital lab near the doctor's office.
            There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in
            his urine.

            Here is some more history. I am an "older" mother -
            over 40 when pregnant. I have worked at a powdered
            metal producing (iron, bronze, nickel etc. are used)
            firm since 1984 and frequent the manufacturing
            facility every day, which is attached to the office
            building via a long open hallway. Christopher was
            born in 1996. The town I live in now I have lived all
            my life is the "powdered metal capital of the world"
            or we were until off shore facilities started to
            compete. There are MANY P/M facilties in this area.

            Christopher loves tuna, he had been eating it almost
            every week, usually as a sandwich for lunch on Friday.
            I grew up in a home that was heated via coal furnace
            all my life until I was 21 years old. Then I moved
            back home when I was 26 and lived there until I was
            32. Christopher's older grown up brother has
            Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The cancer rate as well as
            the ADHD rate in our small city is considered high
            from what I hear although I do not have any statistics
            to quote for you. The psychologist at our Elem.
            school grades K-5 tells me that 25% of the approx. 500
            students in the school are on ritalin or some other
            form of stimulent medication for attention problems.

            Please comment. Thank you for your time.

            Barbara Little





            --- andrewhallcutler <AndyCutler@...> wrote:
            > > Christopher is not a good candidate for oral
            > chelation as the
            > mercury
            > > levels are too high for oral chelation to help.
            >
            > This is incorrect and is a clear indication you need
            > to find a real
            > doctor before your kid gets hurt. Proper oral
            > chelation removes
            > mercury MUCH faster than once a month IV chelation.
            > Monthly DMPS
            > injections only increase the rate at which you
            > excrete mercury by 3%
            > over not taking anything. You can increase it 100%
            > or more with
            > proper oral chelation. DMPS also does not remove
            > mercury from the
            > internal organs.
            >
            > Besides, how did the doc decide the mercury level
            > was so high?
            >
            > > After a minimum of
            > > 10 treatments, we will consider going to oral
            > chelation, but not
            > > now. We also discussed infrared saunas, however,
            > she does not
            > > recommend them at this point. I called Dr. Doris
            > Rapp who is a
            > > colleague of Dr. Patel's and the author of IS THIS
            > YOUR CHILD? She
            > > was very reassuring that Dr. Patel would be the
            > best person to help
            > > us and we should take her advice.
            >
            > Did she have any explanation as to why one person in
            > 6 who tries DMPS
            > injections ends up like the people whose stories are
            > on the
            > www.dmpsbackfire.com site?
            >
            > Andy . . . . ..
            >
            >


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          • moriamerri
            ... Hi Barbara, While I hope Andy will answer your post personally, I also wanted to let you know that you can find more information about Andy s background
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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              --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Barbara Little <barbylittle@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Andy:
              >
              > I am new to this group. Please tell me your
              > background and expertise.

              Hi Barbara,

              While I hope Andy will answer your post personally, I also
              wanted to let you know that you can find more information
              about Andy's background here:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/ANDY_INDEX
              Read the section "who is Andy Cutler?" (near the top)--
              it will take you to other references as well.

              best wishes,
              Moria
            • maraniea
              Andy-- Comments like the one you made below make it so apparent that you do not have an autistic child! We as parents are willing to stay up every night if
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                Andy--

                Comments like the one you made below make it so apparent that you do
                not have an autistic child! We as parents are willing to stay up
                every night if possible-- and the majority of parents would get up
                every two hours if it meant recovering our kids. What parents were
                arguing with what doctors? And how would you know that? Have you
                ever been to ANY of the DAN! seminars? Conferences? Think Tanks??

                You truly underestimate the power of the love a parent has for a
                child, especially a special needs one - and you really should not
                speak of what you don't understand.

                Maranie
                ( who is a little grumpy and tired of being underestimated!!! )




                --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>


                . But the doc's who had used it and got these great
                > results had been having to spend a lot of time arguing with parents
                to
                > get them to get up in the middle of the night, so all the doc's
                there
                > decided that since none of them understood why it should make any
                > difference, that it must not, and every 8 hours would be
                fine> . . .. . .
              • andrewhallcutler
                ... I got up in the middle of the night to chelate my girlfriend s child. I got up in the middle of the night to chelate myself. I have no real trouble
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                  --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "maraniea" <maranie@b...> wrote:
                  > Andy--
                  >
                  > Comments like the one you made below make it so apparent that you do
                  > not have an autistic child!

                  I got up in the middle of the night to chelate my girlfriend's child.

                  I got up in the middle of the night to chelate myself.

                  I have no real trouble convincing most people to get up in the middle
                  of the night to chelate either themselves or their child based on the
                  relative amount of suffering from that, and from the predictable and
                  avoidable problems sleeping through brings.

                  The doc I work with has found it is quite easy to get people to wake
                  up and chelate - instead of letting them get wrapped around the axle
                  about how HORRIBLE waking up was, he simply asks them if they ever get
                  up at night to go to the bathroom, or assorted other things. Of
                  course they all do at times. Then he points out that getting up and
                  chelating isn't any harder than that and the light bulb goes on that
                  they have an emotional problem with someone telling them to get up,
                  not any kind of real problem with being able to do it if there is a
                  reason.

                  Also, I must say that I was willing to get up to chelate someone
                  else's child beccause I know how important it is, and what the
                  negative effect of not doing it is. Since most parents do care dearly
                  for their children I see the problem as one of the benefits of
                  chelating through the night not being properly conveyed to the
                  parents, all of whom would do almost any horrific thing if it really
                  would get their child better. They just don't beleive that getting up
                  at night is necessary when a doctor who hasn't bothered to study their
                  chelation protocol well enough to understand why it is done that way
                  tells them half heartedly that it is important.

                  Of course then we have the debate on this list which I would have
                  thought would have ended a couple of years ago when we had a LARGE
                  number of reports (reflected in the polls section) by parents who Dr.
                  Amy and others informally and unintentionally enrolled in a crossover
                  trial of the two protocols - most children were getting better on the
                  every 4 hour protocol, were changed to every 8 hours and saw them get
                  worse again, then switched back to every 4 hours on their own and saw
                  improvements resume. Sane people get the message from this -
                  experiments have proven that most children do much better on more
                  frequent dosing that requires getting up at night. The only real
                  question in each individual case is does a specific child require
                  this, and the only real way to answer that is to try it both ways.

                  So, Maranie, have you tried it both ways with your child? What were
                  the results? Or is the thought of getting up at night so horrifying
                  that you haven't even given it a try to find out if the benefits
                  outweigh the costs in your child's case?

                  > We as parents are willing to stay up
                  > every night if possible-- and the majority of parents would get up
                  > every two hours if it meant recovering our kids.

                  I agree. Which makes it amazing to me how many never give frequent
                  dosing a try because they get upset about doing something that is
                  easier than getting up to pee.

                  > What parents were arguing with what doctors?

                  This is a direct report to me by Dr. Amy about why she changed. She
                  told me that she spent about half an hour on average trying to
                  convince the parents to get up at night. I find this credible.

                  > And how would you know that? Have you
                  > ever been to ANY of the DAN! seminars? Conferences? Think Tanks??
                  >
                  > You truly underestimate the power of the love a parent has for a
                  > child, especially a special needs one - and you really should not
                  > speak of what you don't understand.

                  I understand quite well, Maranie, and I do have an appreciation for
                  the love most parents have for their children, the surprisingly short
                  limits a few parents have on what they will do for their children, and
                  people's needs to get emotional and find excuses to argue instead of
                  just doing what is necessary.

                  Have you tried both 8 hour and frequent dosing with your child? As
                  you know there are reports of a few children who do better on every 8
                  hour dosing and I have always agreed (3 cases I know of so far) that
                  they should stick with the protocol that was working for their child.

                  There are other parents on list who for whatever reason have found
                  that their child is making at least some progress on 8 hour dosing,
                  and for whatever reason don't want to try or use more frequent dosing.
                  None of them seem to feel compelled to place the argument in terms of
                  whether they love their child or whether I am an unfeeling ogre who
                  can't possibly understand what it is to love an impaired child.
                  >
                  > Maranie
                  > ( who is a little grumpy and tired of being underestimated!!! )

                  I don't think I underestimate either your ability to argue. Nor do I
                  underestimate the willingness of most parents to get up at night if it
                  will help their child get better. Most are more than willing to do
                  this.

                  And to quote you again:

                  > We as parents are willing to stay up
                  > every night if possible-- and the majority of parents would get up
                  > every two hours if it meant recovering our kids.

                  For most children the difference between a real chance at recovery and
                  some modest progress in fact is getting up to chelate them every 3 or
                  4 hours at night. You state that you believe most parents would do
                  much more than this. I agree, MOST parents will. Some won't. But
                  none of them will give it a try unless the relative merits of 8 hour
                  and more frequent chelation are spelled out to them.

                  So I ask again: have you tried 3-4 hour dosing a couple of times? How
                  did your child do? That is the only real test of whether you need to
                  get up at night. If he did better on every 3-4 hour dosing then a
                  caring parent will get up regardless of how icky it seems to do so.
                  If he did just as well, or better, on 8 hour dosing then there is no
                  reason to torture yourself getting up at night and I wouldn't
                  encourage you to continue doing it if clearly not necessary any more
                  than your doc
                • andrewhallcutler
                  ... 3% ... Moria, Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any mercury
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                    --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "moriamerri" <moriam@e...> wrote:
                    > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@a...>
                    > wrote, in part:
                    > > Monthly DMPS
                    > > injections only increase the rate at which you excrete mercury by
                    3%
                    > > over not taking anything. You can increase it 100% or more with
                    > > proper oral chelation. DMPS also does not remove mercury from the
                    > > internal organs.
                    >
                    > Andy, could you please explain this a little more? I thought
                    > that both DMPS and DMSA would clear the body organs.
                    >
                    > thanks.
                    > Moria

                    Moria,

                    Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
                    OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
                    mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
                    Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
                    barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
                    they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
                    they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
                    extracellular mercury is mopped up.

                    Andy . . . .. . . . .
                  • TwoTonks@aol.com
                    I know ALA crosses the BBB barrier, but other than that, is the same (as below) true for ALA as well? Does ALA also only go after stuff on the mercury on the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                      I know ALA crosses the BBB barrier, but other than that, is the same (as
                      below) true for ALA as well? Does ALA also only go after stuff on the mercury
                      on the outside of cells? And is the statement below true of other toxic
                      metals in addition to mercury (like arsenic, antimony, etc.)?

                      Thanks,
                      Debbie

                      In a message dated 7/19/2002 3:24:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      AndyCutler@... writes:


                      > Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
                      > OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
                      > mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
                      > Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
                      > barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
                      > they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
                      > they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
                      > extracellular mercury is mopped up.
                      >
                      > Andy . . . .. . . . .



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • K Mueller
                      ... so true, I agree with you here. ... Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it s as easy as taking a pee. our son isnt 3 yet and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                        Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                        > -Message: 18
                        > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:51:14 -0000
                        > From: "andrewhallcutler" <AndyCutler@...>
                        > Subject: Re: chelation protocols aren't all the same!
                        >
                        > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "maraniea" <maranie@b...> wrote:
                        > > Andy--
                        > " Then he points out that getting up and
                        > chelating isn't any harder than that and the light bulb goes on that
                        > they have an emotional problem with someone telling them to get up,
                        > not any kind of real problem with being able to do it if there is a
                        > reason."
                        >

                        so true, I agree with you here.

                        >
                        > > We as parents are willing to stay up
                        > > every night if possible-- and the majority of parents would get up
                        > > every two hours if it meant recovering our kids.
                        >
                        > I agree. Which makes it amazing to me how many never give frequent
                        > dosing a try because they get upset about doing something that is
                        > easier than getting up to pee.
                        >

                        Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it's as easy as taking a pee.
                        our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.

                        It's really not so bad because we have adapted

                        I get it ready at 12AM

                        I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix it with filtered or distilled water.
                        (it draws better mixed with some water)
                        I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of the rest.

                        I put the 2ml applesauce/water mix into a small container
                        add succimer/ALA
                        a drop of kirkman's cherry flavoring
                        (optional) at times Ive had to add 0.5mg of melatonin
                        maybe another drop of water
                        draw it back up into the syringe
                        store in frig till 4AM

                        IF he has his head right when he's sleeping, it's as easy as walking into the kitchen to get a snack or drink
                        I just walk right in squirt it into his mouth and go back to bed
                        keeping the total amount to just 2-3ml keeps him from gagging and waking
                        do it quick and he swallows almost involuntarily

                        If he doesn't have his head right, you give it slow or you give him more than 4ml...
                        there have been a few times he wouldnt go back to sleep

                        Keith
                      • andrewhallcutler
                        ... or distilled water. ... I used yoghurt with the stuff sprinkled on top and more yoghurt on top of that. Andy . . .. .
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 19, 2002
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                          > I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix it with filtered
                          or distilled water.
                          > (it draws better mixed with some water)
                          > I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of the rest.

                          I used yoghurt with the stuff sprinkled on top and more yoghurt on top
                          of that.

                          Andy . . .. .
                        • Max Salinas
                          For me, I d say it s about twice the difficulty of a pee; so about the same as a pee-pee (ba boom BOOM) Seriously, we ve found a simple recipe that makes the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                            For me, I'd say it's about twice the difficulty of a
                            pee; so about the same as a pee-pee (ba boom BOOM)

                            Seriously, we've found a simple recipe that makes the
                            DMSA acceptable is to just mix it with a citrus drink
                            (we use Five-Alive). We use a 10cc syringe with the
                            threaded tip, a butterfly needle that has been cut up
                            so that all that remains is 3/4 inches or so of hose
                            to screw to the end of the syringe, and a 3 tsp
                            measuring cup (or better yet a mini squirt bottle).

                            So alarm goes off at 4:26 AM (say)... I go to the
                            kitchen, take out a DMSA capsule from the container,
                            and pour 1 tsp juice into measuring cup. I then
                            pickup the syringe (without the plunger) and hold it
                            so that the tip of my pinkie dams up the tip and in
                            such a way that I still have limited use of my index
                            finger and thumb of that same hand. I then pour about
                            half the juice in the syringe, followed by opening and
                            pouring the DMSA capsule contents (using my free hand
                            and the limited assistance from my index finger and
                            thumb of the hand plugging up the syringe), followed
                            by the rest of the juice. I then replace the plunger
                            part way and shake to mix. Lastly, I screw on the
                            hose remnants of my butterfly. At this time I refill
                            my measuring cup with water.

                            I take my DMSA mixture and the water in the measuring
                            cup to my son's room. I find he has to be lying on
                            his back in order to avoid spillage, and strangely
                            enough I usually have better luck if he is not already
                            on his back when I find him because the turning him
                            over wakes him up just enough to dose him easily. If
                            he is on his back already, I rub his cheek or some
                            such to just start to wake him up. He needs to be
                            just conscious enough to effectively 'ask' for the
                            medicine (when he feels the little hose on his lips)
                            by opening his mouth and swallowing when I give it to
                            him. I usually give it to him in stages so he gets
                            about 1/2 tsp per swallow. After getting all the DMSA
                            into him, I suck up water from the measuring cup into
                            the syringe and give him a good 1 1/2 tsp or so to
                            both rinse his mouth a little and to catch any last
                            bits of DMSA that may have remained in the syringe.

                            Finally, I return to the kitchen and rinse all the
                            items out and place them on a towel to dry and be
                            ready to go for the subsequent dose.

                            Back in bed by around 4:32 usually...

                            Sorry this is so long, but now I have it recorded for
                            when night dosing questions come up.

                            Max

                            > Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST)
                            > and tell me it's as easy as taking a pee.
                            > our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.
                            >
                            > It's really not so bad because we have adapted
                            >
                            > I get it ready at 12AM
                            >
                            > I take a dab of applesauce or mashed mango and mix
                            > it with filtered or distilled water.
                            > (it draws better mixed with some water)
                            > I draw up 1-2ml in a medicine syringe and dispose of
                            > the rest.
                            >
                            > I put the 2ml applesauce/water mix into a small
                            > container
                            > add succimer/ALA
                            > a drop of kirkman's cherry flavoring
                            > (optional) at times Ive had to add 0.5mg of
                            > melatonin
                            > maybe another drop of water
                            > draw it back up into the syringe
                            > store in frig till 4AM
                            >
                            > IF he has his head right when he's sleeping, it's as
                            > easy as walking into the kitchen to get a snack or
                            > drink
                            > I just walk right in squirt it into his mouth and go
                            > back to bed
                            > keeping the total amount to just 2-3ml keeps him
                            > from gagging and waking
                            > do it quick and he swallows almost involuntarily
                            >
                            > If he doesn't have his head right, you give it slow
                            > or you give him more than 4ml...
                            > there have been a few times he wouldnt go back to
                            > sleep
                            >
                            > Keith
                            >


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                          • moriamerri
                            Hi Barbara, Just wanted to say thanks for the status update. Best wishes with it all. Moria ... became ... mercury ... and
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                              Hi Barbara, Just wanted to say thanks for the status update.
                              Best wishes with it all.

                              Moria


                              --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "barbylittle" <barbylittle@y...> wrote:
                              > Dear Moria and others who answered my message on Tuesday:
                              >
                              > Thank you for your responses. We went to our first appt. yesterday,
                              > and had a good discussion with Dr. Patel beforehand. We decided to
                              > go ahead with the treatment. It went well after my son's initial
                              > fears were allayed. He did well; it took about 2 hours and he
                              became
                              > a little restless toward the end, but all in all his behavior was
                              > very good.
                              >
                              > Christopher is not a good candidate for oral chelation as the
                              mercury
                              > levels are too high for oral chelation to help. After a minimum of
                              > 10 treatments, we will consider going to oral chelation, but not
                              > now. We also discussed infrared saunas, however, she does not
                              > recommend them at this point. I called Dr. Doris Rapp who is a
                              > colleague of Dr. Patel's and the author of IS THIS YOUR CHILD? She
                              > was very reassuring that Dr. Patel would be the best person to help
                              > us and we should take her advice.
                              >
                              > Christopher had a HUGE appetite last night and slept very well. He
                              > woke up this morning bright, happy, hungary, and well. We are
                              > watching for any regression or changes in him, but so far so good.
                              > He has Early Intervention preschool - summer session this morning
                              and
                              > he was anxious to go.
                              >
                              > Please remember that although he has many autistic traits to a
                              > greater or lesser degree, he is not diagnosed as autistic, just
                              > Disruptive Behavior Disorder, Sensory Integration Dysfunction,
                              > Oculormotor Dysfunction, Inhalent and Food Allergies, Multiple
                              > Chemical Sensitivity, and Heavy Metal Toxicity. His verbal and
                              > social skills are quite high functioning. Perhaps that makes a
                              > difference in determining what works best.
                              >
                              > I will continue to monitor your group for information, and I will
                              > continue to share our experiences with you. Hopefully it will be
                              > helpful to someone.
                              >
                              > Best wishes,
                              >
                              > Barbara Little
                            • moriamerri
                              Hi Barbara, I m just rereading yesterday s posts (I only scanned yesterday)--- I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA comment the first
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                Hi Barbara,

                                I'm just rereading yesterday's posts (I only scanned yesterday)---
                                I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA
                                comment the first time around...

                                > I am new to this group. Please tell me your
                                > background and expertise. I want to understand, but
                                > this is a lot to digest and I'm very concerned.
                                > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                                > "infused" mean?

                                Um, I don't see this word in Andy's post== but maybe it
                                was used elsewhere regarding Christopher's treatments?
                                Relative to making tea, an infusion is when you pour
                                boiling water over herbs/plants and let them steep.
                                The result is an infusion. The tea was made by infusion.
                                I'm sure it has other meanings, but that is the meaning
                                in my vocabulary. Of course, I'm not Andy.

                                >Also, DMPS was not used, his
                                > treatment used EDTA?

                                yeah, see I missed this comment before. I'm so sorry but
                                I get to be the baddie here again and tell you that EDTA is
                                a poor chelator of mercury. I just checked ANDY_INDEX and
                                there are 2 posts about EDTA in the section on "other things
                                as detox agents" -- so you can look this up if you want to
                                see what Andy says there:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/ANDY_INDEX

                                > Can you define both of them for
                                > me? What is the difference?

                                I can't tell you what EDTA stands for, but it is used mostly
                                to chelate cholesterol/plaque out of arteries. Like for
                                heart disease. IV's of EDTA. It is true that some practitioners
                                who use EDTA do believe it is also useful for chelating
                                all or many of the heavy metals. However, it is NOT a
                                good chelator of mercury.

                                Whereas DMPS *is* a good chelator of mercury. (from the body
                                but not brain.)

                                You can read the section in ANDY_INDEX on DMPS if you want.
                                The general section on chelators (ALA, DMSA, DMPS) might also
                                be helpful.

                                >
                                > Christopher's test results were from a battery of
                                > blood and urine tests done at Dr. Patel's office and
                                > processed through Great Smokie's, Metamatrix, Doctor's
                                > Data and the hospital lab near the doctor's office.
                                > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in
                                > his urine.

                                You may want to do a hair test. Or you may not--- since
                                you have already decided to chelate you don't need it for
                                that decision. However it will tell you other useful things.
                                Like what other metals may be high, and whether copper is
                                high, etc.
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/HOW_TO_hair_test


                                > Christopher loves tuna, he had been eating it almost
                                > every week, usually as a sandwich for lunch on Friday.

                                Tuna does collect mercury. :(

                                > I grew up in a home that was heated via coal furnace
                                > all my life until I was 21 years old. Then I moved
                                > back home when I was 26 and lived there until I was
                                > 32. Christopher's older grown up brother has
                                > Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The cancer rate as well as
                                > the ADHD rate in our small city is considered high
                                > from what I hear although I do not have any statistics
                                > to quote for you. The psychologist at our Elem.
                                > school grades K-5 tells me that 25% of the approx. 500
                                > students in the school are on ritalin or some other
                                > form of stimulent medication for attention problems.

                                :(

                                Also, I am sorry if the information on this list is
                                distressing. I know the whole thing is a lot to absorb
                                (even if it is NOT in conflict with other info you are
                                getting from trusted people.)

                                best wishes,
                                Moria
                                [not Andy]
                              • moriamerri
                                ... frequent ... as easy as taking a pee. ... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I m with you on this Keith, and I only had to swallow the pills MYSELF at 3 am (not get a
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 20, 2002
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                                  --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., K Mueller <tomato@k...> wrote:

                                  > > I agree. Which makes it amazing to me how many never give
                                  frequent
                                  > > dosing a try because they get upset about doing something that is
                                  > > easier than getting up to pee.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Andy, please come to my house tonight at 4am (CST) and tell me it's
                                  as easy as taking a pee.
                                  > our son isnt 3 yet and does not take pills.

                                  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
                                  I'm with you on this Keith, and I only had to swallow the
                                  pills MYSELF at 3 am (not get a child to take stuff).
                                  For me it is MUCH MUCH more disruptive to wake up TO AN
                                  ALARM at some weird time of the morning than to get up
                                  and pee. Really messes with my sleep cycles. Caused
                                  a lot of sleepiness in the daytime.

                                  Moria
                                • Madeline Villasante
                                  Hi, my is 4 and high functioning( i don t know to much about this term and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                    Hi,
                                    my is 4 and high functioning( i don't know to much about this term and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but going step by step his socialization with other children still poor. any ideas on this.
                                    i am like you trying to decide about chelation and it scares me so much, we got his hair analysis results and it is very bad news a lot of toxic metals. any info on chelation as what shoud be checked prior going to chelate will help.
                                    thanks.
                                    silvia
                                    andrewhallcutler <AndyCutler@...> wrote: --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Lynne Arnold <lsarnold@e...> wrote:
                                    > This may just seem like semantics, but a diagnosis of "autism" isn't
                                    really
                                    > all that meaningful because it simply describes a set of behaviors.
                                    Autism
                                    > is a syndrome, not a disease. That's why many physicians use the
                                    term
                                    > "autism spectrum disorder." From what you have described your son
                                    isn't
                                    > classically autistic, but he is on the spectrum.
                                    >
                                    > Your son sounds a lot like my son. The neuropsych says he is not
                                    autistic,
                                    > yet he also has a host of autistic tendencies and is high
                                    functioning. At
                                    > this point, I am well beyond concerning myself with labels. We also
                                    read
                                    > Doris Rapp's book and then called her office for a referral. We were
                                    sent to
                                    > her friend in California, John Wakefield for testing. Now we're
                                    seeing Dr.
                                    > McCandless and are getting ready for chelation.
                                    >
                                    > As far as know (I'm no chelation expert), that our sons are high
                                    functioning
                                    > does not make a difference in determining their chelation protocol.

                                    Correct.

                                    > The DAN!
                                    > protocol was developed to minimize risk of organ damage and maximize
                                    metal
                                    > detoxification.

                                    The DAN! protocol was not developed with any concern for any of these
                                    things. A few doc's started chelating people with DMSA and ALA on an
                                    every 4 hour protocol and got good results. Then they showed up at
                                    the DAN! think tank and everyone was really excited and decided to use
                                    DMSA and ALA even though most of the doc's there had never used this
                                    combination before. But the doc's who had used it and got these great
                                    results had been having to spend a lot of time arguing with parents to
                                    get them to get up in the middle of the night, so all the doc's there
                                    decided that since none of them understood why it should make any
                                    difference, that it must not, and every 8 hours would be fine. Of
                                    course it isn't (See poll results in the polls section) but then it is
                                    unreasonable to expect them to develop a rational protocol when very
                                    few of them had been doing it with ALA and DMSA despite years of
                                    experience in chelation, and none of them even knew why it made a
                                    difference how often chelators are given.

                                    In fact, most versions of the DAN! protocol as prescribed by DAN!
                                    doctors are quite harmful to the child's brain and gastrointestinal
                                    tract which is why they talk a lot about a healing crisis.
                                    >
                                    > I look forward to hearing how your son does with IV chelations as
                                    I'm
                                    > interested in all perspectives.

                                    I certainly hope you are lucky enough that you don't generate another
                                    story to go on www.dmpsbackfire.com. Chelation can be DANGEROUS if
                                    done improperly. DMPS injections are about the least proper way to do
                                    it I can imagine. . . . .. . .



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                                  • Terri Avalon
                                    I m only going to respond to the question around infused or infusion as the rest of it was addressed by Moria. I don t like throwing my credentials around but
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                      I'm only going to respond to the question around infused or infusion as the rest of it was addressed by Moria. I don't like throwing my credentials around but I will mention it in this instance so you can have confidence in my answer( I am an RN). Infusion in this instance likely means the method of administration of the medication -intravenous infusion (fluid given through an IV). We use the term fairly regularly and this is a fine example of how our lingo, so familiar to us, can sound like Greek to laypeople. We use the term as a verb as well, i.e., the medication infused, is infusing well with no sign of infiltration (infiltration is when the IV catheter or IV needle moves out of the vein and the medicine starts getting into the tissue around the vein - often causing some irritation or even injury to the tissue).

                                      So while I don't have the full documentation here to be able to tell for sure if that is the context in which infused was used, I am over 90% confident that that is what was meant.

                                      I'd like to take a moment here to mention that it is okay to call your health care provider and ask these questions. I'm afraid we are often so steeped in this lingo that we forget that it isn't obvious. But it isn't obvious. And you guys have enough to deal with just handling the details of autism and mercury toxicity, you shouldn't have to try to interpret our jargon as well.

                                      Terri
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: moriamerri
                                      To: Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 8:30 PM
                                      Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: FIRST IV CHELATION TREATMENT


                                      Hi Barbara,

                                      I'm just rereading yesterday's posts (I only scanned yesterday)---
                                      I realize I answered one PART of this... but I missed the EDTA
                                      comment the first time around...

                                      > I am new to this group. Please tell me your
                                      > background and expertise. I want to understand, but
                                      > this is a lot to digest and I'm very concerned.
                                      > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                                      > "infused" mean?

                                      Um, I don't see this word in Andy's post== but maybe it
                                      was used elsewhere regarding Christopher's treatments?
                                      Relative to making tea, an infusion is when you pour
                                      boiling water over herbs/plants and let them steep.
                                      The result is an infusion. The tea was made by infusion.
                                      I'm sure it has other meanings, but that is the meaning
                                      in my vocabulary. Of course, I'm not Andy.

                                      >Also, DMPS was not used, his
                                      > treatment used EDTA?

                                      yeah, see I missed this comment before. I'm so sorry but
                                      I get to be the baddie here again and tell you that EDTA is
                                      a poor chelator of mercury. I just checked ANDY_INDEX and
                                      there are 2 posts about EDTA in the section on "other things
                                      as detox agents" -- so you can look this up if you want to
                                      see what Andy says there:
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/ANDY_INDEX

                                      > Can you define both of them for
                                      > me? What is the difference?

                                      I can't tell you what EDTA stands for, but it is used mostly
                                      to chelate cholesterol/plaque out of arteries. Like for
                                      heart disease. IV's of EDTA. It is true that some practitioners
                                      who use EDTA do believe it is also useful for chelating
                                      all or many of the heavy metals. However, it is NOT a
                                      good chelator of mercury.

                                      Whereas DMPS *is* a good chelator of mercury. (from the body
                                      but not brain.)

                                      You can read the section in ANDY_INDEX on DMPS if you want.
                                      The general section on chelators (ALA, DMSA, DMPS) might also
                                      be helpful.

                                      >
                                      > Christopher's test results were from a battery of
                                      > blood and urine tests done at Dr. Patel's office and
                                      > processed through Great Smokie's, Metamatrix, Doctor's
                                      > Data and the hospital lab near the doctor's office.
                                      > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in
                                      > his urine.

                                      You may want to do a hair test. Or you may not--- since
                                      you have already decided to chelate you don't need it for
                                      that decision. However it will tell you other useful things.
                                      Like what other metals may be high, and whether copper is
                                      high, etc.
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/files/HOW_TO_hair_test


                                      > Christopher loves tuna, he had been eating it almost
                                      > every week, usually as a sandwich for lunch on Friday.

                                      Tuna does collect mercury. :(

                                      > I grew up in a home that was heated via coal furnace
                                      > all my life until I was 21 years old. Then I moved
                                      > back home when I was 26 and lived there until I was
                                      > 32. Christopher's older grown up brother has
                                      > Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The cancer rate as well as
                                      > the ADHD rate in our small city is considered high
                                      > from what I hear although I do not have any statistics
                                      > to quote for you. The psychologist at our Elem.
                                      > school grades K-5 tells me that 25% of the approx. 500
                                      > students in the school are on ritalin or some other
                                      > form of stimulent medication for attention problems.

                                      :(

                                      Also, I am sorry if the information on this list is
                                      distressing. I know the whole thing is a lot to absorb
                                      (even if it is NOT in conflict with other info you are
                                      getting from trusted people.)

                                      best wishes,
                                      Moria
                                      [not Andy]


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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • danaatty
                                      ... and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but going step by
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                        --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., Madeline Villasante <dumivi@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi,
                                        > my is 4 and high functioning( i don't know to much about this term
                                        and whatt it involves but my started reading since he was 31/2 years
                                        old now at 4 he tries to read anything) he learns very quickly but
                                        going step by step his socialization with other children still poor.
                                        any ideas on this.


                                        Here is my page on functioning levels, your child does sound high
                                        functioning

                                        http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/funclevl.htm


                                        > i am like you trying to decide about chelation and it scares me so
                                        much, we got his hair analysis results and it is very bad news a lot
                                        of toxic metals. any info on chelation as what shoud be checked prior
                                        going to chelate will help.


                                        You can read my chelation overview page, if you are interested

                                        http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/chelate.htm


                                        >>hi,
                                        that is what is happening to me i am getting very scare about DMSA
                                        because of my doctor , please should i feel confident about it.
                                        thanks
                                        silvia


                                        If you are afraid of DMSA because of your doctor, then you should
                                        either use a different doctor, or don't use DMSA. I was not
                                        comfortable with using DMSA so I don't use it, I use ALA only. You
                                        can consider that if you want.

                                        My son's story

                                        http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/myson.htm

                                        Dana
                                      • maraniea
                                        ... were ... horrifying ... Andy, Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                          Andy said:
                                          >> So, Maranie, have you tried it both ways with your child? What
                                          were
                                          > the results? Or is the thought of getting up at night so
                                          horrifying
                                          > that you haven't even given it a try to find out if the benefits
                                          > outweigh the costs in your child's case?"



                                          Andy,

                                          Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing
                                          schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour dosing
                                          for over a year-- and I wasn't horrified one bit.

                                          Maranie
                                        • andrewhallcutler
                                          ... Well, in this case there is no reason for you to use 4 hour dosing instead of 8 hour dosing. Most people do find quite a difference when they try it both
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                            > have you tried it both ways with your child? What
                                            > were the results?
                                            >
                                            > Andy,
                                            >
                                            > Yes, I have done both the four hour and the eight hour dosing
                                            > schedules with absolutely no difference. I did the four hour dosing
                                            > for over a year-- and I wasn't horrified one bit.
                                            >
                                            > Maranie

                                            Well, in this case there is no reason for you to use 4 hour dosing
                                            instead of 8 hour dosing. Most people do find quite a difference when
                                            they try it both ways and get much better results with 3-4 hour dosing
                                            which of course then justifies its use. Those who don't find it helps
                                            really don't need to use it and should not feel guilty about sleeping
                                            soundly at night. I hope you are getting good progress and your child
                                            is improving.

                                            Andy . . .
                                          • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                            Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury, arsenic and nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or DMPS only? No
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                              Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury, arsenic and
                                              nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or DMPS only?
                                              No other sources of exposure and no levels of metals showing in
                                              non-provocated tests or in blood tests except when taken a week or so after a
                                              chelation drug. Are the cells dumping the metals themselves and then DMSA or
                                              DMPS picks it up or are these chelators going in and helping the body to
                                              release the metals? There is no possible way that much heavy metals could be
                                              floating around in the blood for more than two years or it would have shown
                                              up in blood testing. These chelators have to aid in the cells releasing
                                              these metals somehow.
                                              Gaylen


                                              In a message dated 7/19/02 3:24:51 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                              AndyCutler@... writes:


                                              > Neither DMPS nor DMSA enter cells. They only go after mercury on the
                                              > OUTSIDE of cells (which turns out to be about 50% of you). Any
                                              > mercury they get from inside cells has to come out on its own first.
                                              > Since mercury never ever ever comes out across the blood/brain
                                              > barrier, and neither DMPS nor DMSA go in across the BBB, this means
                                              > they are totally ineffective for clearing the brain. It also means
                                              > they aren't that helpful for clearing the liver, guts, etc. once the
                                              > extracellular mercury is mopped up.
                                              >
                                              >




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 7/18/02 10:23:20 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Are you saying the IV took 2 hours? was this EDTA? If so, I m curious as to why your doc
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                                In a message dated 7/18/02 10:23:20 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                barbylittle@... writes:


                                                > it took about 2 hours and he became a little restless toward the end, but
                                                > all in all his behavior was very good.
                                                >

                                                Are you saying the IV took 2 hours? was this EDTA? If so, I'm curious as to
                                                why your doc chose that over DMPS which only takes about 10-20 minutes to
                                                administer and works better for mercury?
                                                Gaylen



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 7/19/02 2:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Where did you get this figure (1 in 6 end up with problems)? Gaylen [Non-text portions of this
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                                  In a message dated 7/19/02 2:44:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                  AndyCutler@... writes:


                                                  > Did she have any explanation as to why one person in 6 who tries DMPS
                                                  > injections ends up like the people whose stories are on the
                                                  > www.dmpsbackfire.com site?
                                                  >

                                                  Where did you get this figure (1 in 6 end up with problems)?
                                                  Gaylen


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                                  In a message dated 7/19/02 9:00:15 AM Central Daylight Time, ... This was adressed to Andy but I thought I d pitch in since I didn t see a clear answer from
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 22, 2002
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                                                    In a message dated 7/19/02 9:00:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                    barbylittle@... writes:


                                                    > Christopher's first treatment was via IV - what does
                                                    > "infused" mean?

                                                    This was adressed to Andy but I thought I'd pitch in since I didn't see a
                                                    clear answer from him yet. In layman's terms, it means that the medication
                                                    was slowly placed into the body through a vein.


                                                    >>> treatment used EDTA? Can you define both of
                                                    > them for me? What is the difference?
                                                    >

                                                    Both are known chelators that can be given by IV or orally but chelate
                                                    different metals/minerals. EDTA is best known for chelating calcium and
                                                    plaque in the arteries plus I think it's also good at removing aluminum and
                                                    lead, if I recall correctly. It is usually given by IV in a slow-drip method
                                                    which can take up to two hours or more to infuse. You can take it orally as
                                                    well but it isn't absorbed very well that way. Also, there have been some
                                                    reports of EDTA combining with mercury in the body to form an even more toxic
                                                    compound so some experts warn not to use EDTA for mercury toxic patients. I
                                                    don't have the studies/reports to offer about this right now but some other
                                                    folks on this list can probably direct you to that info.

                                                    DMPS is best known to remove mercury and is also effective at chelating
                                                    arsenic, nickel and many other toxic metals. It is given as an injection
                                                    into the vein and takes between 10-20 minutes to infuse. You can also take
                                                    it orally.


                                                    > There was mercury and lead in his blood as well as in his urine.

                                                    Given your descriptions of his exposures, this would make sense. Are you
                                                    planning to move from the metals capital town or will he continue to be
                                                    exposed? If the exposures will continue, you may be fighting a losing
                                                    battle. We used to live in a toxic neighborhood too and had to move for our
                                                    families' health. Hard decision but in hindsight, the best thing we ever did
                                                    for our family. Best wishes,
                                                    Gaylen



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                                                  • andrewhallcutler
                                                    ... arsenic and ... DMPS only? You would have seen these if you hadon t done the DMPS. See page 52 of my book - regardless of whether you chelate or not, your
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 23, 2002
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                                                      > Then how would you explain consistently high levels of mercury,
                                                      arsenic and
                                                      > nickel in urine testing for more than two years of taking DMSA or
                                                      DMPS only?

                                                      You would have seen these if you hadon't done the DMPS.

                                                      See page 52 of my book - regardless of whether you chelate or not,
                                                      your body holds onto the toxins and dumps them later once you get it
                                                      started. At least the bodies of the people who are susceptible to
                                                      intoxication at low exposure levels do.

                                                      > No other sources of exposure and no levels of metals showing in
                                                      > non-provocated tests or in blood tests except when taken a week or
                                                      so after a
                                                      > chelation drug. Are the cells dumping the metals themselves and
                                                      then DMSA or
                                                      > DMPS picks it up or are these chelators going in and helping the
                                                      body to
                                                      > release the metals? There is no possible way that much heavy metals
                                                      could be
                                                      > floating around in the blood for more than two years or it would
                                                      have shown
                                                      > up in blood testing. These chelators have to aid in the cells
                                                      releasing
                                                      > these metals somehow.

                                                      I'm not sure that they aid them routinely, or at all, but it is
                                                      arguable that in cases like an exposed autistic kid without further
                                                      exposure, that the chelator clears off the toxins clogging the outside
                                                      of the mineral transport proteins on the cell surfaces and lets the
                                                      cells finally dump what is inside. This is one theory that is "weak"
                                                      in the sense of not having adequate support.

                                                      With adults, where I have lots of cases every which way, it is
                                                      strikingly clear that all DMPS injections do is cause adverse
                                                      reactions - the people who do or don't use them have exactly the same
                                                      overall course of symptoms and heavy metal excretion. I haven't seen
                                                      enough children's tests to be sure of this, but it seems unlikely that
                                                      it would magically be different when the alternative doc's who like
                                                      DMPS are telling the same story about adults and children and it is
                                                      clearly not true for adults.

                                                      One of the major problems with this bogus split of the AMA religion
                                                      into QuackWatch worhshipping, human sacrificing mainstream medicine
                                                      and throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater alternative medicine that
                                                      has to do it ALL different is simply that the "alternative" guys don't
                                                      have professors at med schools doing studies, collecting cases, and
                                                      providing some data so that they can figure out what is going on and
                                                      what needs more work. Due to a profound lack of information a lot of
                                                      time you just can't tell what is up.

                                                      > Gaylen
                                                      >

                                                      Andy .
                                                    • Nomoremetals@aol.com
                                                      In a message dated 7/23/02 2:28:04 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I do believe this is true given the rounds of healing crisis times where people don t feel
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jul 25, 2002
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                                                        In a message dated 7/23/02 2:28:04 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                        AndyCutler@... writes:


                                                        > regardless of whether you chelate or not, your body holds onto the toxins
                                                        > and dumps them later once you get it started. At least the bodies of the
                                                        > people who are susceptible to intoxication at low exposure levels do.

                                                        I do believe this is true given the rounds of "healing crisis" times where
                                                        people don't feel well and then feel wonderful even when they are not
                                                        chelating once the process gets started. We had many periods during off
                                                        times where I'd swear we dumped tons of metals. However, I'd think you'd
                                                        still want a chelator in your system fairly regularly to mop up what the
                                                        cells dump and keep them from being redeposited elsewhere.


                                                        > With adults, where I have lots of cases every which way, it is strikingly
                                                        > clear that all DMPS injections do is cause adverse reactions - the people
                                                        > who do or don't use them have exactly the same overall course of symptoms
                                                        > and heavy metal excretion. I haven't seen enough children's tests to be
                                                        > sure of this,

                                                        I have seen a dramatic difference in the amount of metals (especially mercury
                                                        and arsenic) showing up in urine and stool tests with DMPS injections
                                                        compared to oral DMSA with the kids I've followed. I'm the only adult I
                                                        know personally who has done IV DMPS but can say I didn't see as high an
                                                        increase in output as I saw with the kids. Not sure if this is because
                                                        adults are different or I was just not as toxic as the kids I've followed
                                                        were.

                                                        >> Due to a profound lack of information a lot of time you just can't tell
                                                        > what is up.
                                                        >
                                                        True, and so we watch and guess and hope for the best :).
                                                        Gaylen




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