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Re: Sulphur/Glutathione

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  • AndyCutler@aol.com
    ... it ... I challenge them to substantiate this. It certainly isn t the way it is shown in any of my reference texts. Glutathione, gamma
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 1, 2001
      --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., mwagnit@y... wrote:
      > This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
      > made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
      > about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims
      it
      > has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides".

      I challenge them to substantiate this. It certainly isn't the way it
      is shown in any of my reference texts.

      Glutathione, gamma glutamyl-cysteinyl-glycine has one and only one
      sulfur atom in it's structure as shown on page 835 of the HANDBOOK OF
      ORGANIC CHEMISTRY, by Beyer and Walter, published by Prentice Hall in
      english translation (from german) in 1996. This and many other
      authoritative sources agree on the composition, structure and
      properties of glutathione.

      Perhaps you are reading the "sales" part of their literature and need
      to check the other material you are relying on for technical accuracy
      to make sure you are getting correct and thus useful information.

      Andy

      >It's also strongly
      > argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
      > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system.
      Is
      > their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with
      Hg
      > toxicity?


      Yes. About half of them have it. It is best reflected in the plasma
      level of cysteine, which may be determined by an inexpensive blood
      test through Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories.

      >Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
      > increased sulphur levels?

      Yes.

      >I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
      > toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency.

      Only people who don't bother to look at the results of the laboratory
      tests they order or see agree on this. Some do, and get profoundly
      better on feeding them things like glutathione. Some do NOT, and get
      profoundly worse on feeding them things like glutathione.

      Like many therapeutic agents, glutathione works wonders WHEN
      PRESCRIBED FOR AN APPROPRIATE INDICATION. Autism is NOT an
      appropriate indication to prescribe glutathione. Low plasma cysteine
      or demonstrated improvement on high sulfur diets and regression on low
      sulfur diets (lasting a week or so in each case) are proper
      indications.

      >ust
    • Moria Merriweather
      ... Hi Mike, I d be happy to try to clear up what I *can* about it, but do bear in mind that this business with sulfur and cysteine and cystine and thiols is
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2001
        >This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
        >made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
        >about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims it
        >has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides". It's also strongly
        >argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
        >Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system. Is
        >their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with Hg
        >toxicity? Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
        >increased sulphur levels? I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
        >toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency. Just some thoughts, Mike.

        Hi Mike,

        I'd be happy to try to clear up what I *can* about it, but do bear
        in mind that this business with sulfur and cysteine and cystine and
        thiols is REALLY beyond me, okay?

        I'm going to tell you Andy's view AS I UNDERSTAND IT, and, again,
        I don't understand this with a lot of detail. I think I have the
        broad general stuff right, but I for sure can't help out with
        single or multiple groups of any sort ;)

        Okay--- as I understand it, Andy believes (and observes) that
        mercury toxic people can have EITHER too much or too little
        sulfur. Some may also be "just right". But in terms of
        imbalances (problems) Andy would say some too high, some
        too low. He recommends a plasma cysteine test to determine
        which you (or your kid) may be. (That is cysteine with an E in
        the middle, not to be confused with cystine, without the E.)

        It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is arguing that
        "the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
        Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system."
        Mercury toxicity causes quite a number of quite
        pervasive problems. Not just with sulfur, but with mineral
        transport (use of minerals in general), hormone regulation,
        all kinds of things. Even IF someone wanted to argue that
        ALL of the other things are caused by depleted sulfur,
        I would say that to find the "real" problem we would have
        to check if mercury toxicity underlies the sulfur depletion.

        None of that means that supplementing sulfur is not a great
        idea (if you are depleted). Nor is supplementing thyroid a
        "bad thing" in people with mercury-induced thyroid problems.

        Andy talks a lot about using supplements to "make up" for
        mercury-induced problems, too. I would hope a lot of this
        "need" would disappear as one gets the mercury out and as
        the body has time to readjust and recover.

        I believe Andy is saying that mercury poisoning CAUSES sulfur
        deficinecy and excess (in different people). There could be
        other things that cause it too, I don't know.

        If you were in a sinking boat with a small hole in the bottom,
        would you say that "water in the boat" was the real problem?
        or the hole in the bottom? Both have some truth. If you
        just bail, you may keep up with the incoming water, and the
        boat stays afloat. If you just plug up the hole but it takes
        you a long time to get it plugged up, you had darned well
        better be bailing water out at the same time.
        This is not a perfect analogy, but it will do.
        Maybe I should make it a boat with many very tiny little
        leaks---- I think that is a bit more like it.

        Okay, did that help any?

        Moria <-- who knows nothing about sulfur!
      • mwagnit@yahoo.com
        Andy, I checked the structure and you are correct. It shows just one HS- group. On page 137 of Kirkmans new catalog, they mention in 2 different places the
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2001
          Andy, I checked the structure and you are correct. It shows just one
          HS- group. On page 137 of Kirkmans new catalog, they mention in 2
          different places the words "sulfhydryl groups" when refering to
          glutathione cream. They also use the wording "biolgically active
          sluphur tripeptides". Thanks for the reply, Mike


          -- In Autism-Mercury@y..., AndyCutler@a... wrote:
          > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., mwagnit@y... wrote:
          > > This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post
          you
          > > made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He
          talks
          > > about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman
          claims
          > it
          > > has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides".
          >
          > I challenge them to substantiate this. It certainly isn't the way
          it
          > is shown in any of my reference texts.
          >
          > Glutathione, gamma glutamyl-cysteinyl-glycine has one and only one
          > sulfur atom in it's structure as shown on page 835 of the HANDBOOK
          OF
          > ORGANIC CHEMISTRY, by Beyer and Walter, published by Prentice Hall
          in
          > english translation (from german) in 1996. This and many other
          > authoritative sources agree on the composition, structure and
          > properties of glutathione.
          >
          > Perhaps you are reading the "sales" part of their literature and
          need
          > to check the other material you are relying on for technical
          accuracy
          > to make sure you are getting correct and thus useful information.
          >
          > Andy
          >
          > >It's also strongly
          > > argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't
          the
          > > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport
          system.
          > Is
          > > their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid
          with
          > Hg
          > > toxicity?
          >
          >
          > Yes. About half of them have it. It is best reflected in the
          plasma
          > level of cysteine, which may be determined by an inexpensive blood
          > test through Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories.
          >
          > >Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
          > > increased sulphur levels?
          >
          > Yes.
          >
          > >I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
          > > toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency.
          >
          > Only people who don't bother to look at the results of the
          laboratory
          > tests they order or see agree on this. Some do, and get profoundly
          > better on feeding them things like glutathione. Some do NOT, and
          get
          > profoundly worse on feeding them things like glutathione.
          >
          > Like many therapeutic agents, glutathione works wonders WHEN
          > PRESCRIBED FOR AN APPROPRIATE INDICATION. Autism is NOT an
          > appropriate indication to prescribe glutathione. Low plasma
          cysteine
          > or demonstrated improvement on high sulfur diets and regression on
          low
          > sulfur diets (lasting a week or so in each case) are proper
          > indications.
          >
          > >ust
        • xokisstherain
          I m reading up on sulphur, cysteine. Sorry I m kind of slow and I have to reread things twice. Would it be necessary to do the test if my brother s methylation
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 24, 2013
            I'm reading up on sulphur, cysteine. Sorry I'm kind of slow and I have to reread things twice.
            Would it be necessary to do the test if my brother's methylation panel showed that his gluthathione level is low? Would that mean he's low on cysteine and would benefit from a high sulfur diet?
            Also, my brother's usual diet is - white rice, pork, 2 eggs a day (it's his favorite food), chicken, beef, vegetables, 2 fruits a day, almond milk, and potatoes.

            Also - some other details about him - he's 13 years old, nonverbal, he's very hyperactive, loves sitting in the car while my mom drives him around, hates staying at home, started bedwetting out of nowhere in December 2012, started having red ears from time to time in December 2012.

            --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, AndyCutler@... wrote:
            >
            > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., mwagnit@y... wrote:
            > > This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
            > > made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
            > > about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims
            > it
            > > has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides".
            >
            > I challenge them to substantiate this. It certainly isn't the way it
            > is shown in any of my reference texts.
            >
            > Glutathione, gamma glutamyl-cysteinyl-glycine has one and only one
            > sulfur atom in it's structure as shown on page 835 of the HANDBOOK OF
            > ORGANIC CHEMISTRY, by Beyer and Walter, published by Prentice Hall in
            > english translation (from german) in 1996. This and many other
            > authoritative sources agree on the composition, structure and
            > properties of glutathione.
            >
            > Perhaps you are reading the "sales" part of their literature and need
            > to check the other material you are relying on for technical accuracy
            > to make sure you are getting correct and thus useful information.
            >
            > Andy
            >
            > >It's also strongly
            > > argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
            > > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system.
            > Is
            > > their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with
            > Hg
            > > toxicity?
            >
            >
            > Yes. About half of them have it. It is best reflected in the plasma
            > level of cysteine, which may be determined by an inexpensive blood
            > test through Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories.
            >
            > >Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
            > > increased sulphur levels?
            >
            > Yes.
            >
            > >I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
            > > toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency.
            >
            > Only people who don't bother to look at the results of the laboratory
            > tests they order or see agree on this. Some do, and get profoundly
            > better on feeding them things like glutathione. Some do NOT, and get
            > profoundly worse on feeding them things like glutathione.
            >
            > Like many therapeutic agents, glutathione works wonders WHEN
            > PRESCRIBED FOR AN APPROPRIATE INDICATION. Autism is NOT an
            > appropriate indication to prescribe glutathione. Low plasma cysteine
            > or demonstrated improvement on high sulfur diets and regression on low
            > sulfur diets (lasting a week or so in each case) are proper
            > indications.
            >
            > >ust
            >
          • xokisstherain
            Sorry if this is a repost. I dont know why my messages are not showing up. Is it necessary to do the test if my brother s methylation panel shows he has low
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 24, 2013
              Sorry if this is a repost. I dont' know why my messages are not showing up.

              Is it necessary to do the test if my brother's methylation panel shows he has low gluthathione levels?

              Also my brother's usual diet is white rice, 2 eggs a day, pork, chicken, beef, vegtables, 2 fruits a day, almond milk, and potatoes.

              Additional details about him - he's 13 years old, nonverbal, very hyperactive, loves sitting in the car while my mom drives him, started bedwetting out of nowhere in December 2012, would have red ears from time to time (this started back in December 2012).

              --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, Moria Merriweather <moriam@...> wrote:
              >
              > >This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
              > >made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
              > >about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims it
              > >has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides". It's also strongly
              > >argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
              > >Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system. Is
              > >their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with Hg
              > >toxicity? Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
              > >increased sulphur levels? I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
              > >toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency. Just some thoughts, Mike.
              >
              > Hi Mike,
              >
              > I'd be happy to try to clear up what I *can* about it, but do bear
              > in mind that this business with sulfur and cysteine and cystine and
              > thiols is REALLY beyond me, okay?
              >
              > I'm going to tell you Andy's view AS I UNDERSTAND IT, and, again,
              > I don't understand this with a lot of detail. I think I have the
              > broad general stuff right, but I for sure can't help out with
              > single or multiple groups of any sort ;)
              >
              > Okay--- as I understand it, Andy believes (and observes) that
              > mercury toxic people can have EITHER too much or too little
              > sulfur. Some may also be "just right". But in terms of
              > imbalances (problems) Andy would say some too high, some
              > too low. He recommends a plasma cysteine test to determine
              > which you (or your kid) may be. (That is cysteine with an E in
              > the middle, not to be confused with cystine, without the E.)
              >
              > It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is arguing that
              > "the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
              > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system."
              > Mercury toxicity causes quite a number of quite
              > pervasive problems. Not just with sulfur, but with mineral
              > transport (use of minerals in general), hormone regulation,
              > all kinds of things. Even IF someone wanted to argue that
              > ALL of the other things are caused by depleted sulfur,
              > I would say that to find the "real" problem we would have
              > to check if mercury toxicity underlies the sulfur depletion.
              >
              > None of that means that supplementing sulfur is not a great
              > idea (if you are depleted). Nor is supplementing thyroid a
              > "bad thing" in people with mercury-induced thyroid problems.
              >
              > Andy talks a lot about using supplements to "make up" for
              > mercury-induced problems, too. I would hope a lot of this
              > "need" would disappear as one gets the mercury out and as
              > the body has time to readjust and recover.
              >
              > I believe Andy is saying that mercury poisoning CAUSES sulfur
              > deficinecy and excess (in different people). There could be
              > other things that cause it too, I don't know.
              >
              > If you were in a sinking boat with a small hole in the bottom,
              > would you say that "water in the boat" was the real problem?
              > or the hole in the bottom? Both have some truth. If you
              > just bail, you may keep up with the incoming water, and the
              > boat stays afloat. If you just plug up the hole but it takes
              > you a long time to get it plugged up, you had darned well
              > better be bailing water out at the same time.
              > This is not a perfect analogy, but it will do.
              > Maybe I should make it a boat with many very tiny little
              > leaks---- I think that is a bit more like it.
              >
              > Okay, did that help any?
              >
              > Moria <-- who knows nothing about sulfur!
              >
            • xokisstherain
              Bumping
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 27, 2013
                Bumping

                --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, "xokisstherain" <xokisstherain@...> wrote:
                >
                > Sorry if this is a repost. I dont' know why my messages are not showing up.
                >
                > Is it necessary to do the test if my brother's methylation panel shows he has low gluthathione levels?
                >
                > Also my brother's usual diet is white rice, 2 eggs a day, pork, chicken, beef, vegtables, 2 fruits a day, almond milk, and potatoes.
                >
                > Additional details about him - he's 13 years old, nonverbal, very hyperactive, loves sitting in the car while my mom drives him, started bedwetting out of nowhere in December 2012, would have red ears from time to time (this started back in December 2012).
                >
                > --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, Moria Merriweather <moriam@> wrote:
                > >
                > > >This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
                > > >made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
                > > >about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims it
                > > >has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides". It's also strongly
                > > >argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
                > > >Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system. Is
                > > >their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with Hg
                > > >toxicity? Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
                > > >increased sulphur levels? I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
                > > >toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency. Just some thoughts, Mike.
                > >
                > > Hi Mike,
                > >
                > > I'd be happy to try to clear up what I *can* about it, but do bear
                > > in mind that this business with sulfur and cysteine and cystine and
                > > thiols is REALLY beyond me, okay?
                > >
                > > I'm going to tell you Andy's view AS I UNDERSTAND IT, and, again,
                > > I don't understand this with a lot of detail. I think I have the
                > > broad general stuff right, but I for sure can't help out with
                > > single or multiple groups of any sort ;)
                > >
                > > Okay--- as I understand it, Andy believes (and observes) that
                > > mercury toxic people can have EITHER too much or too little
                > > sulfur. Some may also be "just right". But in terms of
                > > imbalances (problems) Andy would say some too high, some
                > > too low. He recommends a plasma cysteine test to determine
                > > which you (or your kid) may be. (That is cysteine with an E in
                > > the middle, not to be confused with cystine, without the E.)
                > >
                > > It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is arguing that
                > > "the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
                > > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system."
                > > Mercury toxicity causes quite a number of quite
                > > pervasive problems. Not just with sulfur, but with mineral
                > > transport (use of minerals in general), hormone regulation,
                > > all kinds of things. Even IF someone wanted to argue that
                > > ALL of the other things are caused by depleted sulfur,
                > > I would say that to find the "real" problem we would have
                > > to check if mercury toxicity underlies the sulfur depletion.
                > >
                > > None of that means that supplementing sulfur is not a great
                > > idea (if you are depleted). Nor is supplementing thyroid a
                > > "bad thing" in people with mercury-induced thyroid problems.
                > >
                > > Andy talks a lot about using supplements to "make up" for
                > > mercury-induced problems, too. I would hope a lot of this
                > > "need" would disappear as one gets the mercury out and as
                > > the body has time to readjust and recover.
                > >
                > > I believe Andy is saying that mercury poisoning CAUSES sulfur
                > > deficinecy and excess (in different people). There could be
                > > other things that cause it too, I don't know.
                > >
                > > If you were in a sinking boat with a small hole in the bottom,
                > > would you say that "water in the boat" was the real problem?
                > > or the hole in the bottom? Both have some truth. If you
                > > just bail, you may keep up with the incoming water, and the
                > > boat stays afloat. If you just plug up the hole but it takes
                > > you a long time to get it plugged up, you had darned well
                > > better be bailing water out at the same time.
                > > This is not a perfect analogy, but it will do.
                > > Maybe I should make it a boat with many very tiny little
                > > leaks---- I think that is a bit more like it.
                > >
                > > Okay, did that help any?
                > >
                > > Moria <-- who knows nothing about sulfur!
                > >
                >
              • nvibbott
                Most likely glutathione level low, For bed wetting that can be sign of yeast, is he getting any thing for yeast, is the diet been changed recently? Or any
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 28, 2013
                  Most likely glutathione level low,
                  For bed wetting that can be sign of yeast, is he getting any thing for yeast, is the diet been changed recently? Or any thing like some supplements also can increase yeast

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Jun 27, 2013, at 8:15 PM, "xokisstherain" <xokisstherain@...> wrote:

                  > Bumping
                  >
                  > --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, "xokisstherain" <xokisstherain@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Sorry if this is a repost. I dont' know why my messages are not showing up.
                  > >
                  > > Is it necessary to do the test if my brother's methylation panel shows he has low gluthathione levels?
                  > >
                  > > Also my brother's usual diet is white rice, 2 eggs a day, pork, chicken, beef, vegtables, 2 fruits a day, almond milk, and potatoes.
                  > >
                  > > Additional details about him - he's 13 years old, nonverbal, very hyperactive, loves sitting in the car while my mom drives him, started bedwetting out of nowhere in December 2012, would have red ears from time to time (this started back in December 2012).
                  > >
                  > > --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, Moria Merriweather <moriam@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >This issue is getting very confusing. Moria, in an earlier post you
                  > > > >made reference to Andy's file's and thoughts on this issue. He talks
                  > > > >about Glutathione as having a single SH- group when Kirkman claims it
                  > > > >has 3 "biolgically active sluphur tripeptides". It's also strongly
                  > > > >argued that the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
                  > > > >Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system. Is
                  > > > >their such a thing as a high "sulphur level" problem in a kid with Hg
                  > > > >toxicity? Is the supplementation of Glutathione resulting in
                  > > > >increased sulphur levels? I think everyone agrees that autistic/Hg
                  > > > >toxic kids have a Glutathione deficency. Just some thoughts, Mike.
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Mike,
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd be happy to try to clear up what I *can* about it, but do bear
                  > > > in mind that this business with sulfur and cysteine and cystine and
                  > > > thiols is REALLY beyond me, okay?
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm going to tell you Andy's view AS I UNDERSTAND IT, and, again,
                  > > > I don't understand this with a lot of detail. I think I have the
                  > > > broad general stuff right, but I for sure can't help out with
                  > > > single or multiple groups of any sort ;)
                  > > >
                  > > > Okay--- as I understand it, Andy believes (and observes) that
                  > > > mercury toxic people can have EITHER too much or too little
                  > > > sulfur. Some may also be "just right". But in terms of
                  > > > imbalances (problems) Andy would say some too high, some
                  > > > too low. He recommends a plasma cysteine test to determine
                  > > > which you (or your kid) may be. (That is cysteine with an E in
                  > > > the middle, not to be confused with cystine, without the E.)
                  > > >
                  > > > It is hard for me to imagine that anyone is arguing that
                  > > > "the real problem in regards to Hg poisioning isnt't the
                  > > > Hg, but that Hg is destroying the body's sulphur transport system."
                  > > > Mercury toxicity causes quite a number of quite
                  > > > pervasive problems. Not just with sulfur, but with mineral
                  > > > transport (use of minerals in general), hormone regulation,
                  > > > all kinds of things. Even IF someone wanted to argue that
                  > > > ALL of the other things are caused by depleted sulfur,
                  > > > I would say that to find the "real" problem we would have
                  > > > to check if mercury toxicity underlies the sulfur depletion.
                  > > >
                  > > > None of that means that supplementing sulfur is not a great
                  > > > idea (if you are depleted). Nor is supplementing thyroid a
                  > > > "bad thing" in people with mercury-induced thyroid problems.
                  > > >
                  > > > Andy talks a lot about using supplements to "make up" for
                  > > > mercury-induced problems, too. I would hope a lot of this
                  > > > "need" would disappear as one gets the mercury out and as
                  > > > the body has time to readjust and recover.
                  > > >
                  > > > I believe Andy is saying that mercury poisoning CAUSES sulfur
                  > > > deficinecy and excess (in different people). There could be
                  > > > other things that cause it too, I don't know.
                  > > >
                  > > > If you were in a sinking boat with a small hole in the bottom,
                  > > > would you say that "water in the boat" was the real problem?
                  > > > or the hole in the bottom? Both have some truth. If you
                  > > > just bail, you may keep up with the incoming water, and the
                  > > > boat stays afloat. If you just plug up the hole but it takes
                  > > > you a long time to get it plugged up, you had darned well
                  > > > better be bailing water out at the same time.
                  > > > This is not a perfect analogy, but it will do.
                  > > > Maybe I should make it a boat with many very tiny little
                  > > > leaks---- I think that is a bit more like it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Okay, did that help any?
                  > > >
                  > > > Moria <-- who knows nothing about sulfur!
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


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