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Re: REWRITE of my question to Andy (was [Autism-Mercury] Andy: please clarify regarding mercury's redistribution habits and steady-bloodstream level

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  • Jennifer L Thorne
    Hello Moria: Very well thought out and asked. I am eager to see Andy s reply. In Christ s love and mine...Jen : ) On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:49:24 -0800 Moria
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 5, 2001
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      Hello Moria:

      Very well thought out and asked. I am eager to see Andy's reply.

      In Christ's love and mine...Jen : )

      On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:49:24 -0800 Moria Merriweather
      <moriam@...> writes:
      Okay team, here is my revised question to Andy. I shall give
      it my best shot, but only once:
      ==============================================================
      Dear Andy, and all,

      I have a question about mercury's behavior in the body.
      Prior to my question, I will explicitly state a number of
      background assumptions.

      1. Mercury is toxic and damaging.
      2. Mercury can damage various different body organs and
      systems. Where mercury is located will determine what sort
      of damage is done. Some locations will result in "worse"
      damange than other locations.
      3. If DMSA/ALA/DMPS is taken, the safest way to do it is
      to take the chelator often enough to keep a steady bloodstream
      level of the chelator.
      4. If DMSA/DMPS/ALA is taken on a "bad" schedule, with LONGER
      periods of time between doses, then many people will become
      MORE poisoned as a result. If the "bad" schedule is kept up,
      then many people will become VERY ACUTELY poisoned.
      5. This "more poisoned" effect is due to having as many "stops"
      as "starts" in the dosing. It is: start-stop-start-stop-start-
      stop, etc. It is the STOPS that are damaging.
      6. STOPS are damaging, in general. In a "good" protocol, with,
      say, 3 days on, then stop, the many doses "on" easily justify
      the damage of the one stop.

      I understand the above to be generally correct, although possibly
      not the most detailed technical description possible.

      Now, my question is about the damage done upon STOPPING. See item
      number 5 and 6 above. My question is: can you explain how and
      why STOPPING creates damage.

      My thinking is that it involves redistribution.
      My thinking is that at the time of STOPPING, the free floating
      mercury in the body has a chance to resettle.
      If this is, in fact, the mechanism involved, then I do not
      understand why this would result in CONTINUED and ACUTE
      poisoning. (Please see item 4.)

      Let's put in another assumption here, but this one is tentative:

      7. The reason that STOPPING causes damage is redistribution.

      Okay: why would redistribution necessarily be bad?
      (see items 1 and 2.)
      Mercury could (in theory) be moved from brain to liver.
      Mercury could (in theory) be moved from liver to brain.
      Mercury could (in theory) be moved from kidneys to liver.
      Mercury could (in theory) be moved from bones to brain.
      Mercury could (in theory) be moved from brain to bones.

      I presume some of these would be experienced as subjectively
      less pleasant (more sick) than others. I presume that some of
      these would be experienced as subjectively more pleasant
      (less sick).

      Since you (Andy) have explained countless times that #4 above
      is true (people can and do become ACUTELY poisoned) that would
      seem to indicate that mercury is CONSISTENTLY moving to "more
      damaging" locations. So that the person gets worse and worse
      and worse.

      If this is so, why is it so?

      Oh-- One final assumption that I will spell out for everyone:

      8. I am not in any way attacking Andy or his ideas. I am not
      suggesting that any of the prior statements above are incorrect.
      I am not poking holes. I am asking a serious question, because
      I'd actually like to know. I see no logic reason that
      redistribution BY DEFINITION is a bad thing, and would like
      further insight.

      As a personal note, I shall add that this really does bug me.
      The steady-bloodstream-level issue has always bugged me-- it seems
      "weird" to me. Most drugs/supplements do NOT work this way.
      Even the things that Andy wants everyone to take 4 times a day
      (like vitamin C and milk thistle) do not have to be kept at
      a steady level. (He wants everyone to take it often because
      it is water soluable and is cleared quickly). An uneven level
      is not an issue. This is the RULE, not the EXCEPTION. I think.
      Even the many drugs that have a specific timing (e.g. take
      3 times a day)-- the reason is NOT due to some DANGER in
      having an inconcsistent blood level--- it is (I think) more
      to keep the body (and the person) from experiencing the
      peaks as stressful. This seems quite unlike the situation
      with DMSA/DMPS/ALA.

      Over the many months, I have concluded to myself that the REASON
      that DMSA/DMPA/ALA have this "steady-bloodstream issue" is
      NOT because of something about the agents themselves, but rather
      something about MERCURY. Something is different about how MERCURY
      acts, thus requiring this "special" treatment.

      best regards to all,
      Moria






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      In Christ's love and mine...Jen : )

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • AndyCutler@aol.com
      -- ... Yes. Blood levels of chelator fall and there is no chelator around to catch the mercury that got stirred up by the last dose, so it wanders around and
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 5, 2001
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        --
        > Now, my question is about the damage done upon STOPPING. See item
        > number 5 and 6 above. My question is: can you explain how and
        > why STOPPING creates damage.
        >
        > My thinking is that it involves redistribution.

        Yes. Blood levels of chelator fall and there is no chelator around to
        catch the mercury that got stirred up by the last dose, so it wanders
        around and finds a new home.

        > My thinking is that at the time of STOPPING, the free floating
        > mercury in the body has a chance to resettle.
        > If this is, in fact, the mechanism involved, then I do not
        > understand why this would result in CONTINUED and ACUTE
        > poisoning. (Please see item 4.)

        Most tissues are not very sensitive to mercury. The mercury is
        preferentially concentrated in the more sensitive tissues by
        repeatedly mobilizing and redepositing it.

        > Let's put in another assumption here, but this one is tentative:
        >
        > 7. The reason that STOPPING causes damage is redistribution.
        >
        > Okay: why would redistribution necessarily be bad?

        Because the organs more sensitive to the toxic effects of mercury also
        have a higher affinity for it, so redistribution concentrates it into
        the worst possible places.

        > (see items 1 and 2.)
        > Mercury could (in theory) be moved from brain to liver.
        > Mercury could (in theory) be moved from liver to brain.
        > Mercury could (in theory) be moved from kidneys to liver.
        > Mercury could (in theory) be moved from bones to brain.
        > Mercury could (in theory) be moved from brain to bones.
        >
        > I presume some of these would be experienced as subjectively
        > less pleasant (more sick) than others. I presume that some of
        > these would be experienced as subjectively more pleasant
        > (less sick).
        >
        > Since you (Andy) have explained countless times that #4 above
        > is true (people can and do become ACUTELY poisoned) that would
        > seem to indicate that mercury is CONSISTENTLY moving to "more
        > damaging" locations. So that the person gets worse and worse
        > and worse.
        >
        > If this is so, why is it so?
        >
        > Oh-- One final assumption that I will spell out for everyone:
        >
        > 8. I am not in any way attacking Andy or his ideas. I am not
        > suggesting that any of the prior statements above are incorrect.
        > I am not poking holes. I am asking a serious question, because
        > I'd actually like to know. I see no logic reason that
        > redistribution BY DEFINITION is a bad thing,

        It isn't necessarily. The reason it is in the case of mercury is that
        the mercury does not reach equilibrium in the body on its own, so a
        lot of it gets caught in lower affinity (less tightly binding) tissues
        that are also the ones that happen not to be very sensitive to its
        toxic effects. Chelation helps the mercury move around, and this
        facilitates it reaching equilibrium, where it is concentrated in the
        higher affinity tissues (and cleared from the lower affinity ones).
        Since the high affinity ones happen to be the ones that are most
        sensitive, this is a problem. Thus chelation protocols need to be
        designed to maximize the ratio of excretion to redistribution, which
        is done by keeping blood levels of the chelator low and constant.

        > and would like
        > further insight.
        >
        > As a personal note, I shall add that this really does bug me.
        > The steady-bloodstream-level issue has always bugged me-- it seems
        > "weird" to me. Most drugs/supplements do NOT work this way.
        > Even the things that Andy wants everyone to take 4 times a day
        > (like vitamin C and milk thistle) do not have to be kept at
        > a steady level. (He wants everyone to take it often because
        > it is water soluable and is cleared quickly). An uneven level
        > is not an issue. This is the RULE, not the EXCEPTION. I think.

        Everything needs to be kept within its therapeutic window. It is true
        that the need for avoiding too large of fluctuations in blood levels
        is unusual.

        > Even the many drugs that have a specific timing (e.g. take
        > 3 times a day)-- the reason is NOT due to some DANGER in
        > having an inconcsistent blood level--- it is (I think) more
        > to keep the body (and the person) from experiencing the
        > peaks as stressful. This seems quite unlike the situation
        > with DMSA/DMPS/ALA.
        >
        > Over the many months, I have concluded to myself that the REASON
        > that DMSA/DMPA/ALA have this "steady-bloodstream issue" is
        > NOT because of something about the agents themselves, but rather
        > something about MERCURY. Something is different about how MERCURY
        > acts, thus requiring this "special" treatment.

        Correct. It is due to the fact that the highest affinity tissues for
        mercury are brain and liver, which are also the most sensitive.

        >
        > best regards to all,
        > Moria
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