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Re: ANDY - shorter cycles?

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  • AndyCutler@aol.com
    ... week... ... is... ... the more ... that ... The problem is that there is unavoidably a redistribution event that occurs at the end of chelation. In
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 20, 2001
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      --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., "Susan Youshock Pruyn" <sypruyn@e...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Andy,
      >
      > I spoke w/ someone recently who is doing 1 day of chelation twice a
      week...
      > albeit she has a younger child.
      >
      > We have twin 3.5 yr olds... and we do 3 ON, 11 OFF.. my question
      is...
      >
      > Is there some sort of cumulative excretion effect that happens w/
      the more
      > days you are ON a chelation cycle?
      >
      > It would be wonderful to do one day on followed by two off, etc...
      that
      > seems so much more manageable... but, is the progress going to be
      > significantly slower???

      The problem is that there is unavoidably a redistribution event that
      occurs at the end of chelation. In practical experience, adults who
      do one day cycles have significant exacerbations of "psychiatric"
      problems, but not if they do 3 day cycles. I don't have enough
      reports of kids doing 1 day cycles to know exactly what happens, but
      based on the adult experience I recommend against it.

      >
      > Sue
    • Moria Merriweather
      ... ... I will add a little personal experience here. I did mostly 3 days on (really 2.6) for the first
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 21, 2001
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        << "Susan Youshock Pruyn" said: >>
        >> I spoke w/ someone recently who is doing 1 day of chelation twice a
        >week...
        >> albeit she has a younger child.
        >>
        >> We have twin 3.5 yr olds... and we do 3 ON, 11 OFF.. my question
        >is...
        >>
        >> Is there some sort of cumulative excretion effect that happens w/
        >the more
        >> days you are ON a chelation cycle?
        >>
        >> It would be wonderful to do one day on followed by two off, etc...
        >that
        >> seems so much more manageable... but, is the progress going to be
        >> significantly slower???

        <<Andy said: >>
        >The problem is that there is unavoidably a redistribution event that
        >occurs at the end of chelation. In practical experience, adults who
        >do one day cycles have significant exacerbations of "psychiatric"
        >problems, but not if they do 3 day cycles. I don't have enough
        >reports of kids doing 1 day cycles to know exactly what happens, but
        >based on the adult experience I recommend against it.

        I will add a little personal experience here. I did mostly 3 days
        on (really 2.6) for the first about 19 rounds. (There were also
        2 cycles that were 1.6 days and 2 cycles that were 5.6 also in there.)

        Interestingly, in reading the first few months of posts on this list
        (which I did recently), there were some comments of Andy's about that
        as people get less toxic they can handle shorter cycles (or it is
        more likely they can). I think at least one of these comments
        made it into ANDY_INDEX. At the time I was reading this (recently),
        I was also upping my ALA dose from 100 to 200 mg per dose, with
        no "bad" effects noted. Which to me seems congruent with the idea
        that I am (maybe) less toxic. Also, the idea of only ONE night of
        waking up at night was VERY appealing, so I decided to change to
        cycles of 1.6 days (instead of 2.6 days).

        I've now done 3 (or maybe 4?) cycles at 1.6 days. I don't know
        how this compares to the 2.6 day cycles. In my case there are
        not any obvious problems (or I would have stopped)--- the subtler
        stuff is harder to characterize, attribute to things, and report
        on.

        No real conclusion here, just saying "I did this".
        Moria
      • Schmidt Mail
        Hi I started Jo-anne (5 yo) on the DMSA alone this past weekend (60 hours) She is 55 pounds and we started her on 25 mg (splitting a 100 mg vrp capsule Fedexed
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 21, 2001
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          Hi
          I started Jo-anne (5 yo) on the DMSA alone this past weekend (60 hours) She
          is 55 pounds and we started her on 25 mg (splitting a 100 mg vrp capsule
          Fedexed to South Africa) on a 4-hourly regimen. She was a little tired and
          more settled (could actually sit still?)
          1.If DMSA only takes Hg (mercury) out the body , why do some people see a
          reaction on this alone?
          2.I assume that the supplementation continues on the 11 off days?
          3.I intend to increase the doe to 50 mg next cycle (still DMSA alone) Then
          I'll do a urine check.
          4.I am giving her Vit B, zinc, taurine, magnesium, an antioxidant formula
          that include selenium, vit c ,E various other amino acids, milk thistle,
          calcium and flax oil. Sound OK?
          Thank you


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Moria Merriweather
          ... How nice! The tired part sounds like something I hear a lot........ ... I would assume it is because mercury causes a great deal of damage in many body
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 22, 2001
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            >I started Jo-anne (5 yo) on the DMSA alone this past weekend (60 hours) She
            >is 55 pounds and we started her on 25 mg (splitting a 100 mg vrp capsule
            >Fedexed to South Africa) on a 4-hourly regimen. She was a little tired and
            >more settled (could actually sit still?)

            How nice! The tired part sounds like something I hear a lot........

            >1.If DMSA only takes Hg (mercury) out the body , why do some people see a
            >reaction on this alone?

            I would assume it is because mercury causes a great deal of damage in
            many body organs, and that the improvement is a genuine result of
            lessened mercury burden. But this is only my guess about it.

            >2.I assume that the supplementation continues on the 11 off days?

            yes.

            >3.I intend to increase the doe to 50 mg next cycle (still DMSA alone) Then
            >I'll do a urine check.

            you really don't need to increase it-- you are already at the high end
            of "Andy's range" (1/8 to 1/2 mg per pound of body weight per dose).

            >4.I am giving her Vit B, zinc, taurine, magnesium, an antioxidant formula
            >that include selenium, vit c ,E various other amino acids, milk thistle,
            >calcium and flax oil. Sound OK?

            I don't know much about this, but it sounds okay to me. I used zinc when
            my copper was high--- is hers high? or is there some other reason to use it?

            I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you & Jo-anne,
            Moria
          • JPiker@aol.com
            In a message dated 10/22/01 2:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Dr. Holmes told us since we also saw an improvement with DMSA only that we were probably
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 22, 2001
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              In a message dated 10/22/01 2:54:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
              gobldigook@... writes:


              > 1.If DMSA only takes Hg (mercury) out the body , why do some people see a
              > reaction on this alone?

              Dr. Holmes told us since we also saw an improvement with DMSA only that we
              were probably pulling other metals out besides mercury and that's why we were
              seeing so many good things.


              2.I assume that the supplementation continues on the 11 off days?

              Continue all supplements on and off.

              4.I am giving her Vit B, zinc, taurine, magnesium, an antioxidant formula
              that include selenium, vit c ,E various other amino acids, milk thistle,
              calcium and flax oil. Sound OK?

              This looks great. You might want to thing about adding 250 mg. of glycine
              with every other dose of DMSA. Helps to pull more metals out and has a
              calming affect. This is what Dr. Holmes recommended for us. I'm glad you're
              seeing such good results.

              Jo (South Carolina)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nelsoneyes@cs.com
              With regard to you first question, Dr. Holmes told me not to expect any progress on DMSA alone UNLESS the child has other metals (like lead) in the body which
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 22, 2001
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                With regard to you first question, Dr. Holmes told me not to expect any
                progress on DMSA alone UNLESS the child has other metals (like lead) in the
                body which are being removed in significant amounts.

                Yvonne
              • The Kramer Family
                ... chelation as I have seen other people suggest. We even tried doing a Flinstones vitamin a day and there seemed to be more trouble concentrating,
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 22, 2001
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                  > If you guys were in my shoes what supplements would you try first? I feel like I should be preparing his system for
                  chelation as I have seen other people suggest. We even tried doing a Flinstones vitamin a day and there seemed to be
                  more trouble concentrating, aggression
                  and hyperactivity too!!

                  Theresa,

                  Glad to hear you are making progress. I agree with the others that ramping up from tiny amounts of supplements is best
                  and may in fact be the only way to introduce them.

                  We've had good luck with relying on a kineseologist (muscle tester) to help us determine which supplements to use and
                  which to postpone or completely avoid. She's also helped us with dosages. You could ask at the local health food store
                  for references for these practitioners.

                  Since metals and minerals are so imbalanced in our kids, I'd recommend using the liquid minerals
                  www.kt-solutions.com ) to customize mineral supplementation and avoid supplementing the minerals your child already
                  has in excess. You can buy mineral-free vitamins, or (better yet) supplement them individually Flintstone vitamins
                  could have minerals your child doesn't need, plus don't they have dye and aspertame?

                  Andy mentioned Vit. E, but in the past has said natural E is best. I know that E is bad for some of our kids.

                  The DAN presenters commonly pointed out the first line of action as GFCF diet, probiotics, and digestive enzymes.

                  Paul Shattock has said (based on Rosemary Waring's work) that nearly all autistic kids are PST deficient, so using some
                  epsom salt solution on the skin should be effective and is almost certainly the cheapest intervention of all.

                  Mary K.
                • AL ASKER
                  JP, How do you go about boosting the production of Metallothionein? Also, you mention that your son is five-years-old and the clock is ticking. What do you
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 5, 2001
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                    JP,

                    How do you go about boosting the production of Metallothionein? Also,
                    you mention that your son is five-years-old and the "clock is ticking." What
                    do you mean by that? Is it harder to completely recover from autism after
                    the age of five?

                    Al.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "JP Lapeyre" <jlapeyre@...>
                    To: <Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 8:13 PM
                    Subject: [Autism-Mercury] Re: boys 4:1 for autism


                    > The most plausible explanation that I have heard was at DAN! 2001 this
                    month in San Diego, by William Walsh PhD.
                    >
                    > Bill is the clinical director of the Pfeiffer Center in Illinois and
                    suggests that it is related to very low production of the protein
                    metallothionein in most autistics.
                    >
                    > Metallothionein (MT) synthesis is enhanced by estrogen and progesterone,
                    especially during early development. Since females have higher levels of
                    these hormones, they are better protected against the heavy
                    metal/enviornmental insults which can trigger autism.
                    >
                    > You can find more information related to his research at
                    http://www.hriptc.org/MetalMetabolism_and_Autism.htm.
                    >
                    > At his site, you will find that the most significant marker that they
                    found (from a large database study) was the copper to zinc ratio. The ratio
                    is measured for (blood) serum Cu: plasma Zn. For most normal folks it is
                    1:1. MT synthesis promotes this balance. For the autistics in his study
                    the mean ratio was 1.7:1. My son Sean's ratio is 2.3 to 1. His hair test
                    was also off the chart for copper (AND we also use a reverse osmosis filter
                    for our family's drinking water)
                    >
                    > Bill was the lone abstaining vote on the DAN! chelation protocol. He
                    believes if you can boost MT production in these kids, they will recover.
                    Only time will tell, but in our case, since our son is 5 (clock is ticking),
                    we have decided to go with Dr. Amy and both boost his MT production AND
                    chelate to get him back to a "blank slate" condition.
                    >
                    > -JP
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > =======================================================
                    > Statements posted on this list are for information only,
                    > and should NOT be taken as medical advice. If you need
                    > medical advice, you should seek it from those who are
                    > authorized to give medical advice: doctors.
                    >
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                  • Moria Merriweather
                    ... I am not JP, but will venture to guess that it is not specifically about the age 5 -- but there is an observation made that it appears younger kid respond
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 7, 2001
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                      >JP,
                      >
                      > How do you go about boosting the production of Metallothionein? Also,
                      >you mention that your son is five-years-old and the "clock is ticking." What
                      >do you mean by that? Is it harder to completely recover from autism after
                      >the age of five?
                      >
                      >Al.

                      I am not JP, but will venture to guess that it is not specifically
                      about the age "5"-- but there is an observation made that it
                      appears younger kid respond faster to chelation. There is also
                      speculation that younger kids respond better (more) to chelation.
                      I don't think we really know this--- the faster does APPEAR to
                      be the case.

                      Moria
                    • igorginzburg <imginzburg@earthlink.net>
                      Theresa, You are not scared of Diflucan but scared of probiotics! Diflucan is a strong antibiotic, it can be hard on liver and it will destroy completely good
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 22, 2002
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                        Theresa,
                        You are not scared of Diflucan but scared of probiotics! Diflucan is
                        a strong antibiotic, it can be hard on liver and it will destroy
                        completely good intestinal flora. I think you just have to give your
                        kid a lot of probiotics simultaneously with any antibiotic, otherwise
                        you are very likely to get an overgrowth of very bad antibiotic-
                        resistant bacteria.
                        Margaret

                        > I am so scared to try more supplements. It is as if he cannot move
                        > them out and they backup in his system and cause problems. We will
                        > be starting chelation Jan.2002 in hopes of healing the gut. Right
                        > now we are on Diflucan (for one month) for his yeast problems. I am
                        > even scared of trying to probiotics. His tests have indicated metal
                        > toxicity and all of this really makes me feel confident that this
                        is
                        > truly needed. I wish we could start chelation earlier but we have
                        to
                        > wait for many reasons for 2 ½ more months.
                      • andrewhallcutler <AndyCutler@aol.com>
                        This indicates problems with a leaky gut and/or chemical sensitivity. these should be the first things to address, but if you need to fool around for more than
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 22, 2002
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                          This indicates problems with a leaky gut and/or chemical sensitivity.
                          these should be the first things to address, but if you need to fool
                          around for more than 2 weeks, you should just chelate.

                          If you have a doc who wants to balance everything for months on end
                          before chelation, you need to find a real doctor instead.



                          > My son has problems processing supplements. We tried Super Nu Thera
                          > and for 3 days he seemed okay-maybe more focused. After that he
                          > started regressing: aggression, hyperactivity, stimming A LOT, and
                          > could not concentrate. We switched to the P5P version since that is
                          > suppose to be easier to digest, but I got the same thing. We tried
                          > DMG and after one day he started with a fever until we stopped the
                          > supplement. We tried it again a month later and the same thing.
                          > Thank goodness we only try one thing at a time or we might have
                          > thought it was from something else. This is the same kid that had
                          > been milk-free for 6 months but when we added the gluten-free he
                          > regressed horribly. Our food sensitivity test (MRT
                          > http://www.leapallergy.com) showed reactions to 41 out of 150
                          > foods/chemicals, which included soy, rice, beef, pork, milk, yeast,
                          > bananas, and more (not wheat). We have seen some improvement on
                          this
                          > elimination diet.
                          >
                          > I am so scared to try more supplements. It is as if he cannot move
                          > them out and they backup in his system and cause problems. We will
                          > be starting chelation Jan.2002 in hopes of healing the gut. Right
                          > now we are on Diflucan (for one month) for his yeast problems. I am
                          > even scared of trying to probiotics. His tests have indicated metal
                          > toxicity and all of this really makes me feel confident that this is
                          > truly needed. I wish we could start chelation earlier but we have
                          to
                          > wait for many reasons for 2 ½ more months.
                          >
                          > If you guys were in my shoes what supplements would you try first?

                          Glutamine, probiotics, C, magnesium, E, B complex, milk thistle
                          extract, in about that order.

                          > I
                          > feel like I should be preparing his system for chelation as I have
                          > seen other people suggest. We even tried doing a Flinstones vitamin
                          > a day and there seemed to be more trouble concentrating, aggression
                          > and hyperactivity too!!
                          >
                          > FYI – he has made great progress since being diagnosed a year ago –
                          > non-verbal to 300+words, sentences, receptively understands most
                          > everything, numbers, shapes, colors, letters – and a lot more. It
                          > scares me when I see the regression especially since he is doing so
                          > much better.
                          >
                          > Theresa, TX
                          > Mom to 3 yr Andrew, ASD
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "Theresa M." <autismzone@y...> wrote:
                          > How do you boost the Metallothionein?
                          >
                          > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., AndyCutler@a... wrote:
                          > AC:
                          > Feed them lots of zinc, maybe with a bit of manganese.
                          > TM:
                          > How long would it take children to have their MT boosted enough to
                          > recover (I know it would vary but is it 1 yr or 10 yrs)?
                          > AC:
                          > Forever for most of them, since they are toxic because of too much
                          > mercury. A few would be helped, and those who are toxic due to
                          > normal levels of copper but not enough MT would be cured. This is a
                          > small subset of autistic chi
                        • anncrow49740 <anncrow@earthlink.net>
                          Theresa My thoughts are to start your son out on the digestive enzymes they are making for our kids these days ( I have use Serenaid from Klaire Labs) They
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 22, 2002
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                            Theresa My thoughts are to start your son out on the digestive
                            enzymes they are making for our kids these days ( I have use
                            Serenaid from Klaire Labs) They make a big difference in my son
                            mood and his over apperance. It is a pain staking proccess to add
                            new things to our childrens supplements but I beleave it is worth
                            it. The enzymes did produce a frustration I have not seen in my son
                            the first day ( and I thought I might stop) But read a little more
                            and found out it is a normal response he was going through a
                            withdrawal. the enzymes now seem to be able to stop my son melt
                            down in there tracks ( like in 2 minutes) the enzymes are given
                            with all meals and I sprinkle them on my son lunch. I mix them with
                            honey and give with eyedropper at home.
                            I also think you should start chelation soon if that is what you
                            want to do the supplements that are used are antioxidants many
                            doctors dont tell you that because they are working with companies
                            that want to compound it with stuff they think will help you give it
                            to your child ( like orange flavor) I mix mine with honey. You can
                            have DMSA sent to your home if you read the files in this group you
                            can learn how. Well that is my take.. Good Luck Ann PS my son is
                            on round 8 and feels his best on the days he is chelating.. REALLY
                            --- In Autism-Mercury@yahoogroups.com, "Theresa M."
                            <autismzone@y...> wrote:
                            > My son has problems processing supplements. We tried Super Nu
                            Thera
                            > and for 3 days he seemed okay-maybe more focused. After that he
                            > started regressing: aggression, hyperactivity, stimming A LOT, and
                            > could not concentrate. We switched to the P5P version since that
                            is
                            > suppose to be easier to digest, but I got the same thing. We tried
                            > DMG and after one day he started with a fever until we stopped the
                            > supplement. We tried it again a month later and the same thing.
                            > Thank goodness we only try one thing at a time or we might have
                            > thought it was from something else. This is the same kid that had
                            > been milk-free for 6 months but when we added the gluten-free he
                            > regressed horribly. Our food sensitivity test (MRT
                            > http://www.leapallergy.com) showed reactions to 41 out of 150
                            > foods/chemicals, which included soy, rice, beef, pork, milk,
                            yeast,
                            > bananas, and more (not wheat). We have seen some improvement on
                            this
                            > elimination diet.
                            >
                            > I am so scared to try more supplements. It is as if he cannot
                            move
                            > them out and they backup in his system and cause problems. We
                            will
                            > be starting chelation Jan.2002 in hopes of healing the gut. Right
                            > now we are on Diflucan (for one month) for his yeast problems. I
                            am
                            > even scared of trying to probiotics. His tests have indicated
                            metal
                            > toxicity and all of this really makes me feel confident that this
                            is
                            > truly needed. I wish we could start chelation earlier but we have
                            to
                            > wait for many reasons for 2 ½ more months.
                            >
                            > If you guys were in my shoes what supplements would you try
                            first? I
                            > feel like I should be preparing his system for chelation as I have
                            > seen other people suggest. We even tried doing a Flinstones
                            vitamin
                            > a day and there seemed to be more trouble concentrating,
                            aggression
                            > and hyperactivity too!!
                            >
                            > FYI – he has made great progress since being diagnosed a year ago –

                            > non-verbal to 300+words, sentences, receptively understands most
                            > everything, numbers, shapes, colors, letters – and a lot more. It
                            > scares me when I see the regression especially since he is doing
                            so
                            > much better.
                            >
                            > Theresa, TX
                            > Mom to 3 yr Andrew, ASD
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "Theresa M." <autismzone@y...> wrote:
                            > How do you boost the Metallothionein?
                            >
                            > --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., AndyCutler@a... wrote:
                            > AC:
                            > Feed them lots of zinc, maybe with a bit of manganese.
                            > TM:
                            > How long would it take children to have their MT boosted enough to
                            > recover (I know it would vary but is it 1 yr or 10 yrs)?
                            > AC:
                            > Forever for most of them, since they are toxic because of too much
                            > mercury. A few would be helped, and those who are toxic due to
                            > normal levels of copper but not enough MT would be cured. This is
                            a
                            > small subset of autistic children.
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