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Re: Andy: dose vs spacing

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  • AndyCutler@aol.com
    ... the ... The timing is only slightly worse than the dosage. If you absolutely had to do something unpleasant, use a high dose every 4 hours. Which is worse
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 14, 2001
      --- In Autism-Mercury@y..., jw4994@e... wrote:
      > Andy, you have said many times that you object to the DAN consensus
      > report on the use of DMSA, both the dose amount and the timing of
      > doses. Which do you think is the worse offender?

      The timing is only slightly worse than the dosage. If you absolutely
      had to do something unpleasant, use a high dose every 4 hours.

      Which is worse - being shot in the belly with a .38 or with a .22?
      Personally I'd rather not have to choose between those, or between
      lesser things such as inappropriate administration schedule for DMSA,
      and vastly excessive dosages of DMSA.
      > I have a theory about what you'll say.

      What, that I'll be in a bad mood and say something like I did above?

      > Meanwhile, let me tell you
      > what's been happening at our house. Our 2.6 year old daughter, 26
      > lbs, was started at 12.5 mg for the first round (every 4 hours,
      > we have continued through subsequent rounds.) At that small dose,
      > she had her worst side effect, a day of inability to walk, which
      > occurred late on day 2. She hasn't had it since; the only thing
      > we've noticed on subsequent rounds (at 25 mg, 25 mg, 25 mg, and
      > mg, all at every 4 hours) is some sweatiness (resolved for the last
      > rounds) and increased urination (persists). We've not noticed any
      > regression or improvements yet.

      All argument aside it is important to remember we are dealing with
      real human beings. While I find it incredible that the problem
      actually was the lower dose of DMSA, DON'T GO TRYING IT AGAIN ON MY
      ACCOUNT!!! She did OK on 25, stick with 25. There is no need to do
      an experiment and see if she turns into a statistic - you found
      something that works.

      It is up to you whether to increase the dosage further. I wouldn't.
      The primary reason I can offer you for not doing so is that doubling
      the dose does double side effects, at least, but only increases
      mercury removal by 30-40%.
      > I'm pleased that increasing the dose has been trouble free, and am
      > wondering how high I can push it. In the Files, you say *start* at
      > mg/lb for just DMSA (and 1/8 - 1/2 mg/lb for DMSA + ALA). How high
      > can one push this?

      I don't know. I know how it FELT to take higher doses, and I know
      what other adults report about dosage related side effects. I also
      know what people generally have been reporting on list about side
      effects and I don't feel comfortable suggesting either adults or
      children take much more than 1 mg/pound.

      Lots of people use the PDR dosage of 22 mg/pound (10 mg/kg) and most
      of them don't die from it, but it is hard to believe they do well on
      it. Remember, this dose was approved with studies on severely lead
      toxic children who the doc's expected to be really really really
      messed up no matter what they did, and approval was based on a lot of
      lead coming out, not on the kids getting better.

      Also the study was NOT on mercury toxic children. Lead and mercury
      have quite dissimilar behavior in the body. I suspect lead toxic
      people can tolerate more DMSA because the mobilization effect is much

      >I assume the real bad side effects (loss of
      > neutrophils and platelets, liver abnormalities) is increased at the
      > higher doses;

      Correct. They also happen FASTER at higher doses - at lower doses
      you have time to realize something is going wrong before it is
      serious. I know several people who got mild neutropenia at low
      doses, all of whom figured it out before they got low enough to have
      life threatening infections (which is the usual sign it is going
      on). At higher doses you figure out it happened in the hospital
      after the fact.

      >are there any data on the incidence of these at
      > particular doses?

      Unfortunately not. There really aren't good incidence data even at
      the FDA approved dosage that is often Rx'd for lead.
      > Julia

      Please don't take this too harshly. I know you have to make
      decisions what to try and what not to, and are getting lots of
      conflicting information and very little in the way of useful help.
      You are guaranteed not to do it all perfectly, just like I didn't do
      things very well when I was detoxing myself. I did lots of really
      dumb stuff (some of which I actually did know better than at the
      time, too). The best you can do is try things, don't change anything
      to dramatically, and watch what happens. If you decide that you want
      to try more DMSA, you may wish to raise it to 2, then 3 or 4, etc.
      rather than making big jumps.
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