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Re: Jumping off a friggin' bridge

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  • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
    ... know ... Then it belongs in an arts and crafts class in an organization not associated with history. The things we do in the SCA should be fun but should
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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      > A volunteer has decided that it is fun and that she wants others to
      know
      > the fun of something that she does.

      Then it belongs in an arts and crafts class in an organization not
      associated with history. The things we do in the SCA should be fun
      but should also have been done historically.

      Kass
    • rowengr@hotmail.com
      ... Mmm, I remember seeing some of that a while back... but I got the impression that the lady in question wasn t claiming it for her persona - she was
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Guernen Cimarguid" <Gwernin@a...> wrote:
        >
        > > Druids. In Ireland. 600 years after the establishment of
        > > Christianity... Sometimes I wish people would do their research
        > > somewhere other than the New Age section of Waldenbooks...
        > >
        >
        > mmm -- Kass? They were around for some time in some capacity, post-
        > Christianity. They're in the Brehon laws stuff I was reading last
        > week (while searching for information on traveling musicians).
        >
        > Guernen

        Mmm, I remember seeing some of that a while back... but I got the
        impression that the lady in question wasn't claiming it for her
        persona - she was claiming it for her 20th-21st century self.

        Rowen
      • Guernen Cimarguid
        ... research ... post- ... last ... Oh, I wasn t supporting her claims, just pointing out that druids per se apparantly did not instantly vanish when
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., rowengr@h... wrote:
          > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Guernen Cimarguid" <Gwernin@a...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Druids. In Ireland. 600 years after the establishment of
          > > > Christianity... Sometimes I wish people would do their
          research
          > > > somewhere other than the New Age section of Waldenbooks...
          > > >
          > >
          > > mmm -- Kass? They were around for some time in some capacity,
          post-
          > > Christianity. They're in the Brehon laws stuff I was reading
          last
          > > week (while searching for information on traveling musicians).
          > >
          > > Guernen
          >
          > Mmm, I remember seeing some of that a while back... but I got the
          > impression that the lady in question wasn't claiming it for her
          > persona - she was claiming it for her 20th-21st century self.
          >
          > Rowen

          Oh, I wasn't supporting her claims, just pointing out that druids per
          se apparantly did not instantly vanish when Christianity arrived.
          I'll have to check, but I think the law manuscripts being quoted in
          the text I was reading were 8th-9th(?) century.

          guernen
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... I can actually remember telling someone once... many years ago.... Please go away. It s the only time in my SCA career to my recollection I ve ever done
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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            rowengr@... wrote:

            > Sigh - famtrads. (This is shorthand for folk who insist that their
            > particular set of beliefs has continued in an "unbroken line" from
            > whatever point they've picked to start at.) One of my favorites was
            > the woman who told me that her "line" was traceable to neolithic
            > roots. Well... we all have "neolithic roots" if you think about it.
            > But I doubt anything (except maybe a stray gene link or two) has
            > "continued unbroken." Sheesh.
            >

            I can actually remember telling someone once... many years ago.... "Please
            go away."

            It's the only time in my SCA career to my recollection I've ever done so. He
            was going on and on about the ninjasamurai martial tradition and spouting
            such drek (hey, he knew all this... he'd studied at a secret ninja dojo in
            Georgia) that I could only stare at him in dumbstruck fashion for about
            thirty seconds. "Please go away."

            >
            > > Druids. In Ireland. 600 years after the establishment of
            > > Christianity... Sometimes I wish people would do their research
            > > somewhere other than the New Age section of Waldenbooks...
            >
            > I think you can also blame any number of "the ancient order of
            > woss'names" that rose up in the 19th century.... Maybe her
            > great-grandad decided in about 1879 that he was "really" a Druid, and
            > passed the notion down the fmaily? (Well, it was a thought.)
            >

            No, it's newage books and authors making money off of gullible, credulous
            people with esteem issues and... heck, you've see 'em.

            >
            > > But in every academic discipline in the world, the onus is
            > > not upon me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is upon the
            > > perpetrator of these falacies to prove that they DID exist.
            >
            > Or at least provide some indication that there was a teeny
            > possibility? <g>
            >

            How can they, since the eeeeeeeeeeevuuuuulllll Kattlick Church has destroyed
            all the records? Sigh.

            Effingham
          • L Joseph
            ... Um, if it was a secret ninja dojo, how could he tell you about it? ... Wait a minute, what were all those hunchbacked nearsighted monks copying all this
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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              --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
              > It's the only time in my SCA career to my
              > recollection I've ever done so. He
              > was going on and on about the ninjasamurai martial
              > tradition and spouting
              > such drek (hey, he knew all this... he'd studied at
              > a secret ninja dojo in
              > Georgia) that I could only stare at him in
              > dumbstruck fashion for about
              > thirty seconds. "Please go away."

              Um, if it was a secret ninja dojo, how could he tell
              you about it?

              > How can they, since the eeeeeeeeeeevuuuuulllll
              > Kattlick Church has destroyed all the records? Sigh.
              Wait a minute, what were all those hunchbacked
              nearsighted monks copying all this time then? I'm
              SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO confused. I'd better go hug a
              crystal. It'll make me feel better.

              Jehanne


              =====
              "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
              Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

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            • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
              ... per ... Yes, but unless I m mistaken, Guernen, the Druids mentioned in the 8th and 9th century manuscripts weren t purported to be magic users or priests
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                > Oh, I wasn't supporting her claims, just pointing out that druids
                per
                > se apparantly did not instantly vanish when Christianity arrived.
                > I'll have to check, but I think the law manuscripts being quoted in
                > the text I was reading were 8th-9th(?) century.

                Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, Guernen, the Druids mentioned in the
                8th and 9th century manuscripts weren't purported to be magic users
                or priests of some other religion. They were judges, doctors,
                lawyers, genealogists...

                Undoubtedly the role of Druids lasted well into the Christian era.
                But this poor unread soul is imagining herself the last of a
                hereditary priesthood in the 10th century and that is a claim I
                cannot and will not support.

                Kass
              • rowengr@hotmail.com
                ... in ... Right. Oh, gee, I just realized it s another one of those terms / titles (like bard ) that s getting appropriated and misused out the wazoo....
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., historian@r... wrote:
                  > > Oh, I wasn't supporting her claims, just pointing out that druids
                  > per
                  > > se apparantly did not instantly vanish when Christianity arrived.

                  > > I'll have to check, but I think the law manuscripts being quoted
                  in
                  > > the text I was reading were 8th-9th(?) century.
                  >
                  > Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, Guernen, the Druids mentioned in the
                  > 8th and 9th century manuscripts weren't purported to be magic users
                  > or priests of some other religion. They were judges, doctors,
                  > lawyers, genealogists...

                  Right. Oh, gee, I just realized it's another one of those terms /
                  titles (like "bard") that's getting appropriated and misused out the
                  wazoo.... (arrgh!)

                  > Undoubtedly the role of Druids lasted well into the Christian era.
                  > But this poor unread soul is imagining herself the last of a
                  > hereditary priesthood in the 10th century and that is a claim I
                  > cannot and will not support.

                  Er, I doubt Guernen would either... (or me.)

                  Rowen
                • Guernen Cimarguid
                  I think we have two separate topics here: (1) were there still druids in post-christian irelands, and if so, what did they do? (2) is there any likelihood of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                    I think we have two separate topics here:

                    (1) were there still druids in post-christian irelands, and if so,
                    what did they do?

                    (2) is there any likelihood of (to put it loosely) valid lineal
                    descendants of that tradition, whatever it was?

                    > Yes, but unless I'm mistaken, Guernen, the Druids mentioned in the
                    > 8th and 9th century manuscripts weren't purported to be magic users
                    > or priests of some other religion. They were judges, doctors,
                    > lawyers, genealogists...
                    >

                    [question 1] This doesn't square with what I remember reading -- I'll
                    check my reference tonight & get back to you.

                    > Undoubtedly the role of Druids lasted well into the Christian era.
                    > But this poor unread soul is imagining herself the last of a
                    > hereditary priesthood in the 10th century and that is a claim I
                    > cannot and will not support.
                    >
                    > Kass

                    [question 2] I'm inclined to agree with you (& Rowen) on that one.

                    Gwernin
                    (thanking all the gods for air conditioning, and therefore glad to be
                    at work today)
                  • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
                    ... Well, yes. That is true. But I don t think the lady in question was claiming to be a modern Druid. She *was* talking about her SCA persona. Of that I
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                      > I think we have two separate topics here:
                      >
                      > (1) were there still druids in post-christian irelands, and if so,
                      > what did they do?
                      >
                      > (2) is there any likelihood of (to put it loosely) valid lineal
                      > descendants of that tradition, whatever it was?

                      Well, yes. That is true. But I don't think the lady in question was
                      claiming to be a modern Druid. She *was* talking about her SCA
                      persona. Of that I am quite certain.

                      > [question 1] This doesn't square with what I remember reading --
                      I'll
                      > check my reference tonight & get back to you.

                      I would appreciate it.

                      In all my reading upon the subject of Druids, the only people who I
                      have ever heard agree about what the term even means are the New
                      Agers. Scholars still aren't sure what the term "Druid" meant to the
                      ancient Irish. And of course the Victorian revivalists did us no
                      favours with their renditions of the truth in the 19th century.

                      In my reading of old texts, the term seems to cover alot more ground
                      than we would like. Meaning it doesn't fit nicely into modern
                      categories of "priest" or "lawyer" or "wiseman"...

                      > [question 2] I'm inclined to agree with you (& Rowen) on that one.
                      >
                      > Gwernin
                      > (thanking all the gods for air conditioning, and therefore glad to
                      be
                      > at work today)

                      Oh I hear THAT! Though it was very nice and cool this morning, I'm
                      sure it's hot again now...

                      Kass
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Pretty clearly, he was a bad student. ... LOL! Effingham
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                        L Joseph wrote:

                        >
                        > Um, if it was a secret ninja dojo, how could he tell
                        > you about it?
                        >

                        Pretty clearly, he was a bad student. <G>

                        >
                        > > How can they, since the eeeeeeeeeeevuuuuulllll
                        > > Kattlick Church has destroyed all the records? Sigh.
                        > Wait a minute, what were all those hunchbacked
                        > nearsighted monks copying all this time then? I'm
                        > SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO confused. I'd better go hug a
                        > crystal. It'll make me feel better.

                        LOL! <G>

                        Effingham
                      • rowengr@hotmail.com
                        ... Trees are more fun to hug.... and gentlemen are better yet. I once encountered an, er, individual, who claimed to have rediscovered the lost Dorian
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., L Joseph <wodeford@y...> wrote:
                          > I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO confused. I'd better go hug a
                          > crystal. It'll make me feel better.
                          >
                          > Jehanne

                          Trees are more fun to hug.... and gentlemen are better yet. <g>

                          I once encountered an, er, individual, who claimed to have
                          "rediscovered the lost Dorian mode" and who performed a song he had
                          written about the "fall of Atlantis" which contained the line "I don't
                          like the way you're pointin' that crystal at me"....

                          Rowen
                        • L Joseph
                          ... Well, yeah! And being as my gentleman and I are trying to figure out the long distance thing, I m distinctly hug deprived. For the record, I am completely
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                            --- rowengr@... wrote:
                            > Trees are more fun to hug.... and gentlemen are
                            > better yet. <g>
                            Well, yeah! And being as my gentleman and I are trying
                            to figure out the long distance thing, I'm distinctly
                            hug deprived. For the record, I am completely
                            oblivious to presences, vibrations, nexuses(nexi?) and
                            all that stuff. Put a crystal in my hand and it's a
                            rock. I won't say the paranormal doesn't happen, but
                            it certainly doesn't happen to me.

                            Jehanne the forever warped by a Judeo Christian
                            upbringing.



                            =====
                            "I do but sing because I must, And pipe but as the linnets sing."
                            Alfred, Lord Tennyson, "In Memoriam."

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                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... Hm. There s a song I think I d like to hear. I think. Maybe.... Effingham
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                              rowengr@... wrote:

                              >
                              > I once encountered an, er, individual, who claimed to have
                              > "rediscovered the lost Dorian mode" and who performed a song he had
                              > written about the "fall of Atlantis" which contained the line "I don't
                              > like the way you're pointin' that crystal at me"....
                              >

                              Hm. There's a song I think I'd like to hear.

                              I think.

                              Maybe....


                              Effingham
                            • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
                              ... I gotta tell you a story from this weekend. I was at a Rev War thing at Fort Mifflin near Philadelphia and when we had a break from the cannon, we went to
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                > For the record, I am completely
                                > oblivious to presences, vibrations, nexuses(nexi?) and
                                > all that stuff. Put a crystal in my hand and it's a
                                > rock. I won't say the paranormal doesn't happen, but
                                > it certainly doesn't happen to me.

                                I gotta tell you a story from this weekend. I was at a Rev War thing
                                at Fort Mifflin near Philadelphia and when we had a break from the
                                cannon, we went to check out the old powder magazines because they
                                are underground and nice and cool (like AC). There was a girl in
                                there telling us we needed to say hello to Richard. I said, "Who's
                                Richard?" She said, "I just walked in here and felt a presense and
                                got the name Richard." "Why," said I, "Would anyone have died in a
                                powder magazine? It's for ammo, not people." She hadn't thought of
                                that. I don't think she knew what the building was for. I think she
                                thought it was an underground bunker.

                                It's not that I don't believe in ghosts. I do. It's just that I
                                don't believe that every name that enters your head in an old
                                building is a ghost talking to you...

                                Kass
                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                ... Yeesh... People like that make my hair hurt. ... Well, I think her load was a few grains short.... Effingham
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                  historian@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  > I gotta tell you a story from this weekend. I was at a Rev War thing
                                  > at Fort Mifflin near Philadelphia and when we had a break from the
                                  > cannon, we went to check out the old powder magazines because they
                                  > are underground and nice and cool (like AC). There was a girl in
                                  > there telling us we needed to say hello to Richard. I said, "Who's
                                  > Richard?" She said, "I just walked in here and felt a presense and
                                  > got the name Richard." "Why," said I, "Would anyone have died in a
                                  > powder magazine? It's for ammo, not people." She hadn't thought of
                                  > that. I don't think she knew what the building was for. I think she
                                  > thought it was an underground bunker.
                                  >

                                  Yeesh...

                                  People like that make my hair hurt.

                                  >
                                  > It's not that I don't believe in ghosts. I do. It's just that I
                                  > don't believe that every name that enters your head in an old
                                  > building is a ghost talking to you...

                                  Well, I think her load was a few grains short....


                                  Effingham
                                • Laurie Hupman
                                  Le sigh. Just for the record, my husband is a magician specializing in what s known as bizarre magic. I ve picked up quite a few seance tricks from him over
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                    Le sigh.

                                    Just for the record, my husband is a magician
                                    specializing in what's known as bizarre magic. I've
                                    picked up quite a few "seance tricks" from him over
                                    the past couple of years.

                                    So, three or four years ago, I was standing in line
                                    for the cutting table at one of our local fabric
                                    shops. The woman being waited on at the moment had a
                                    bolt of Chinese silk spread out over the cutting table
                                    and the salesman was about to cut. She stopped him
                                    quite suddenly, reached into a small pouch and pulled
                                    out her pendulum and held it over the silk. When it
                                    swung the wrong way, she gathered up the silk and went
                                    running back to the wall to exchange it for a
                                    different bolt. She brought it back, repeated the
                                    pendulum test and announced that her spirit guide
                                    approved of this fabric and it was okay to cut.

                                    I love Santa Cruz. It makes Berkeley seem so Normal.

                                    Rose

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                                  • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
                                    ... Oh, Rose, I bet you have stories... ... Oh... my... Kass
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                      > Just for the record, my husband is a magician
                                      > specializing in what's known as bizarre magic. I've
                                      > picked up quite a few "seance tricks" from him over
                                      > the past couple of years.

                                      Oh, Rose, I bet you have stories...

                                      > So, three or four years ago, I was standing in line
                                      > for the cutting table at one of our local fabric
                                      > shops. The woman being waited on at the moment had a
                                      > bolt of Chinese silk spread out over the cutting table
                                      > and the salesman was about to cut. She stopped him
                                      > quite suddenly, reached into a small pouch and pulled
                                      > out her pendulum and held it over the silk. When it
                                      > swung the wrong way, she gathered up the silk and went
                                      > running back to the wall to exchange it for a
                                      > different bolt. She brought it back, repeated the
                                      > pendulum test and announced that her spirit guide
                                      > approved of this fabric and it was okay to cut.
                                      >
                                      > I love Santa Cruz. It makes Berkeley seem so Normal.

                                      Oh... my...

                                      Kass
                                    • Laurie Hupman
                                      ... You _so_ don t want to be in my house when John Edward comes on TV. OTOH, I know all kinds of tricks for making writing appear or for making you hear
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                        --- historian@... wrote:
                                        > > Just for the record, my husband is a magician
                                        > > specializing in what's known as bizarre magic.
                                        > I've
                                        > > picked up quite a few "seance tricks" from him
                                        > over
                                        > > the past couple of years.
                                        >
                                        > Oh, Rose, I bet you have stories...
                                        >

                                        You _so_ don't want to be in my house when John Edward
                                        comes on TV. OTOH, I know all kinds of tricks for
                                        making writing appear or for making you hear voices.

                                        Rose (BOO! BOO! I said, "BOOOOO!")
                                        > > So, three or four years ago, I was standing in
                                        > line
                                        > > for the cutting table at one of our local fabric
                                        > > shops. The woman being waited on at the moment
                                        > had a
                                        > > bolt of Chinese silk spread out over the cutting
                                        > table
                                        > > and the salesman was about to cut. She stopped
                                        > him
                                        > > quite suddenly, reached into a small pouch and
                                        > pulled
                                        > > out her pendulum and held it over the silk. When
                                        > it
                                        > > swung the wrong way, she gathered up the silk and
                                        > went
                                        > > running back to the wall to exchange it for a
                                        > > different bolt. She brought it back, repeated the
                                        > > pendulum test and announced that her spirit guide
                                        > > approved of this fabric and it was okay to cut.
                                        > >
                                        > > I love Santa Cruz. It makes Berkeley seem so
                                        > Normal.
                                        >
                                        > Oh... my...
                                        >
                                        > Kass
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... Oh, man. I saw him once and couldn t believe it. I mean, who BUYS into this crap? He s good at cold readings, I ll give him that, but... Jeez, that whole
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                          Laurie Hupman wrote:

                                          >
                                          > You _so_ don't want to be in my house when John Edward
                                          > comes on TV. OTOH, I know all kinds of tricks for
                                          > making writing appear or for making you hear voices.
                                          >

                                          Oh, man. I saw him once and couldn't believe it.

                                          I mean, who BUYS into this crap? He's good at cold readings, I'll give him
                                          that, but...

                                          Jeez, that whole thing is so cynical, and so CRUEL....

                                          You ever notice, though, that no one ever gets a "you're right, your
                                          daughter hated you, and she wants you to burn in hell" messages? It's always
                                          happyhappy feelgood crap.

                                          Effingham
                                        • Laurie Hupman
                                          ... Sad people who want reassurance buy into this crap. People who need to be told that everything is going to be okay, they still love you, etc.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                            --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                            > Laurie Hupman wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > You _so_ don't want to be in my house when John
                                            > Edward
                                            > > comes on TV. OTOH, I know all kinds of tricks for
                                            > > making writing appear or for making you hear
                                            > voices.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Oh, man. I saw him once and couldn't believe it.
                                            >
                                            > I mean, who BUYS into this crap? He's good at cold
                                            > readings, I'll give him
                                            > that, but...
                                            >

                                            <snort> Sad people who want reassurance buy into this
                                            crap. People who need to be told that "everything is
                                            going to be okay, they still love you, etc." buy into
                                            this crap.

                                            He's probably the best cold reader on the market right
                                            now. It's really interesting to hear some of the old,
                                            established psychics (like Sylvia Brown) defer to him.
                                            Wanna try a fun experiment? Get a notepad, and count
                                            how many hits and misses he gets. Count how many
                                            times he finishes his question _after_ it's been
                                            answered. Count how many times the ghostly message is
                                            actually meant for somebody else in the audience.
                                            Suddenly, he doesn't look quite so impressive.

                                            > Jeez, that whole thing is so cynical, and so
                                            > CRUEL....
                                            >
                                            > You ever notice, though, that no one ever gets a
                                            > "you're right, your
                                            > daughter hated you, and she wants you to burn in
                                            > hell" messages? It's always
                                            > happyhappy feelgood crap.
                                            >

                                            That's very important to the whole scam, though. The
                                            ghost never tells you important stuff, like where the
                                            will is hidden. It's always general, non-specific
                                            reassurance. And it's always vague, so that the
                                            subject can put their own spin on the message.

                                            "My name begins with an R or an L -- ask him which
                                            one" -- James Randi

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                                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                                            ... AND IT S SO OBVIOUS! ... But why can t everyone ELSE see this? ... I m getting another message... wait... He wants you to know he s hurt that you re
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
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                                              Laurie Hupman wrote:

                                              >
                                              > <snort> Sad people who want reassurance buy into this
                                              > crap. People who need to be told that "everything is
                                              > going to be okay, they still love you, etc." buy into
                                              > this crap.
                                              >
                                              > He's probably the best cold reader on the market right
                                              > now. It's really interesting to hear some of the old,
                                              > established psychics (like Sylvia Brown) defer to him.
                                              > Wanna try a fun experiment? Get a notepad, and count
                                              > how many hits and misses he gets. Count how many
                                              > times he finishes his question _after_ it's been
                                              > answered. Count how many times the ghostly message is
                                              > actually meant for somebody else in the audience.
                                              > Suddenly, he doesn't look quite so impressive.
                                              >
                                              >

                                              AND IT'S SO OBVIOUS!

                                              >
                                              > That's very important to the whole scam, though. The
                                              > ghost never tells you important stuff, like where the
                                              > will is hidden. It's always general, non-specific
                                              > reassurance. And it's always vague, so that the
                                              > subject can put their own spin on the message.
                                              >

                                              But why can't everyone ELSE see this?

                                              >
                                              > "My name begins with an R or an L -- ask him which
                                              > one" -- James Randi

                                              "I'm getting another message... wait... He wants you to know he's hurt that
                                              you're doubting him, and says he has no choice but to abandon you to your
                                              fate."


                                              Effingham
                                            • Elizabeth Walpole
                                              ... The correct term for those sort of people is inDUHvidual, like a story someone posted on another list about a A&S judge who whined that a modern glaze on
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 2, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                >I once encountered an, er, individual, who claimed to have
                                                >"rediscovered the lost Dorian mode" and who performed a song he had
                                                >written about the "fall of Atlantis" which contained the line "I don't
                                                >like the way you're pointin' that crystal at me"....
                                                >
                                                >Rowen

                                                The correct term for those sort of people is inDUHvidual, like a story
                                                someone posted on another list about a A&S judge who whined that a modern
                                                glaze on her pot would have made it look smoother than the period glaze and
                                                then knocked off points for it.

                                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                ----
                                                Elizabeth Walpole
                                                ewalpole@...
                                                Politarchopolis, Lochac

                                                "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence
                                                of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968).
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