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11th Century Assistance

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  • elladartois
    Good Afternoon Everyone, I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 4, 2013
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      Good Afternoon Everyone,

      I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has requested a bliaut, and he, of course, will be wearing his fighting garb. She had asked me about doing a "Heraldic bliaut" a la heraldic cotehardies, however I've not been able to find any sort of documentation/historical proof that they were ever made. The closest thing I can find is a sideless surcoat (which, from what I understand, was honestly much more prevalent even than the actual cotehardie being heraldic). Can anyone give more insight into what is period appropriate for 11th century, and point me in the right direction for some resources? My specialty is late 16th century, so this stuff is -very- early for me!

      Thank you so much!

      -Ella d'Artois
    • Marguerite fitz William
      Greetings Ella, The bliaut was a mid-late 12th century fashion, and as far as I know you wouldn t have used your heraldry on it. Heraldry was just beginning
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
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        Greetings Ella,



        The bliaut was a mid-late 12th century fashion, and as far as I know you
        wouldn't have used your heraldry on it. Heraldry was just beginning in the
        12th century and really hadn't gotten very formalized, yet.



        Marguerite fitz William, JdL
        Courtier to His Excellency Steinolf of Aquaterra
        Veneur & Swan
        Motto: Et Hoc Quoque Transibit
        Or, a natural panther stantant contourney
        sable, on a chief engrailed vert, three plates

        MargueritefitzWilliam-email







        From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of elladartois
        Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 12:25 PM
        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] 11th Century Assistance





        Good Afternoon Everyone,

        I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting
        together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has requested a
        bliaut, and he, of course, will be wearing his fighting garb. She had asked
        me about doing a "Heraldic bliaut" a la heraldic cotehardies, however I've
        not been able to find any sort of documentation/historical proof that they
        were ever made. The closest thing I can find is a sideless surcoat (which,
        from what I understand, was honestly much more prevalent even than the
        actual cotehardie being heraldic). Can anyone give more insight into what is
        period appropriate for 11th century, and point me in the right direction for
        some resources? My specialty is late 16th century, so this stuff is -very-
        early for me!

        Thank you so much!

        -Ella d'Artois





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chris Laning
        ... Briefly, as I understand it (and I m not a specialist in this area), the sideless surcote hasn t yet come into fashion in the 11th century -- it gets its
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
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          On Jun 4, 2013, at 12:24 PM, elladartois wrote:

          > Good Afternoon Everyone,
          >
          > I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has requested a bliaut, and he, of course, will be wearing his fighting garb. She had asked me about doing a "Heraldic bliaut" a la heraldic cotehardies, however I've not been able to find any sort of documentation/historical proof that they were ever made. The closest thing I can find is a sideless surcoat (which, from what I understand, was honestly much more prevalent even than the actual cotehardie being heraldic). Can anyone give more insight into what is period appropriate for 11th century, and point me in the right direction for some resources? My specialty is late 16th century, so this stuff is -very- early for me!

          Briefly, as I understand it (and I'm not a specialist in this area), the sideless surcote hasn't yet come into fashion in the 11th century -- it gets its start in the later 13th century as a more or less straight-up-and-down cut with about a foot of the upper side seams simply left open as a slit. As time goes on into the 14th century the "windows" at the sides are cut deeper and rounded at the bottom, making what we think of as the typical sideless surcote.

          Overgarments in the 11th century would be more likely some sort of mantle or cloak, or a rectangular wrap (which isn't called a shawl and doesn't get folded diagonally, but it does keep you warm!). There's also the possibility of an over-tunic, or maybe a dalmatic (wide-sleeved overtunic open down the front) which seems about the best garment to do heraldic decoration on. You'll want to check in other sources which or how many or what shape of these are common in the 11th century.

          The kind of sideless surcote that had the wearer's or spouse's arms pretty straightforwardly reproduced on it may or may not have actually existed as a garment for women before 1600. (Of course we do see a lot of them in the SCA.) No such garments for women survive as far as I know; what we see is pictures of ladies who look like they're wearing this sort of arms on their clothing in specific contexts: on tomb brasses, or in formal heraldic contexts (such as tournament illustrations). These *may* have been just an elaborate way of showing who these ladies were, since at this period you can't expect any real facial resemblance from such pictures.

          For men, on the other hand, we do know that there were heraldic overtunics, because the one belonging to the Black Prince survives in England. However we don't know on what occasions they were worn.

          A different style of heraldic clothing has small motifs taken from heraldry -- the wearer's own, or those of someone they want to proclaim affiliation with -- used as decoration on a gown or tunic. Sometimes they may just have been used for decoration. There may be a border of motifs, or they may be scattered all over the cloth. Tomb brasses (again with a reality caution) show some monarchs wearing clothes that appear to have an overall pattern of such elements (for instance stags, heraldic knots, etc.). Queen Philippa of Hainault had a famous garment that was "powdered" with golden squirrels, which we know about because it appears in a church inventory. I don't think we have any idea why squirrels ;)

          I won't get into the bliaut question, except to say that scholars have seen the word "bliaut" in so many different contexts that it doesn't seem to refer specifically to one and only one garment style. It's sometimes thought of as resembling the garments worn by some very tall, thin 12th-century sculptures at Chartres Cathedral, but it's not certain whether those represent an actual historical garment.

          What most people seem to call a "bliaut" is a woman's outer gown with long "angel" type sleeves and wide skirts. The construction methods are highly debateable; Robin Netherton has an example of this sort of cut in one of her papers, although I don't remember where.

          ____________________________________________________________

          O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
          + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
          http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
          ____________________________________________________________
        • elladartois
          Thank you both for your replies. All information being taken into consideration as she and I discuss her options :) -E
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
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            Thank you both for your replies. All information being taken into consideration as she and I discuss her options :)

            -E

            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marguerite fitz William <M_fitzWIlliam@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings Ella,
            >
            >
            >
            > The bliaut was a mid-late 12th century fashion, and as far as I know you
            > wouldn't have used your heraldry on it. Heraldry was just beginning in the
            > 12th century and really hadn't gotten very formalized, yet.
            >
            >
            >
            > Marguerite fitz William, JdL
            > Courtier to His Excellency Steinolf of Aquaterra
            > Veneur & Swan
            > Motto: Et Hoc Quoque Transibit
            > Or, a natural panther stantant contourney
            > sable, on a chief engrailed vert, three plates
            >
            > MargueritefitzWilliam-email
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of elladartois
            > Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 12:25 PM
            > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] 11th Century Assistance
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Good Afternoon Everyone,
            >
            > I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting
            > together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has requested a
            > bliaut, and he, of course, will be wearing his fighting garb. She had asked
            > me about doing a "Heraldic bliaut" a la heraldic cotehardies, however I've
            > not been able to find any sort of documentation/historical proof that they
            > were ever made. The closest thing I can find is a sideless surcoat (which,
            > from what I understand, was honestly much more prevalent even than the
            > actual cotehardie being heraldic). Can anyone give more insight into what is
            > period appropriate for 11th century, and point me in the right direction for
            > some resources? My specialty is late 16th century, so this stuff is -very-
            > early for me!
            >
            > Thank you so much!
            >
            > -Ella d'Artois
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • gianottadallafiora
            The 11th century bliaut was really more of a long flowing overtunic rather than the form-fitting, long drapey sleeve thing it turned into later with the French
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
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              The 11th century bliaut was really more of a long flowing overtunic rather than the form-fitting, long drapey sleeve thing it turned into later with the French in the 12th and 13th centuries.

              Royal ceremonial styles tended to ape Byzantine styles in that period; you may want to aim more towards that.

              YIS,
              Adelisa Salernitana

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "elladartois" <shahalosiris@...> wrote:
              >
              > Good Afternoon Everyone,
              >
              > I am working with a good friend of mine (I do all her sewing) on putting together an 11th century outfit for Crown Tournament. She has requested a bliaut, and he, of course, will be wearing his fighting garb. She had asked me about doing a "Heraldic bliaut" a la heraldic cotehardies, however I've not been able to find any sort of documentation/historical proof that they were ever made. The closest thing I can find is a sideless surcoat (which, from what I understand, was honestly much more prevalent even than the actual cotehardie being heraldic). Can anyone give more insight into what is period appropriate for 11th century, and point me in the right direction for some resources? My specialty is late 16th century, so this stuff is -very- early for me!
              >
              > Thank you so much!
              >
              > -Ella d'Artois
              >
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