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Re: [Authentic_SCA] 14th Century Bra Kind of Found in Austrian Castle

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  • Catherine Olanich Raymond
    ... What reasons are those? We know more about men s underpants from artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything else, and not like
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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      > Heather Rose Jones wrote:
      >> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
      >> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
      >> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
      >>
      >> Tangwystyl
      >>
      >> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
      >> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.

      What reasons are those? We know more about men's underpants from
      artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything
      else, and not like these underpants.


      --
      Cathy Raymond
      cathy@...
      (610) 805-9542

      "Remember that time is money."
      --Benjamin Franklin
    • Heather Rose Jones
      I tend to count 16th century as post-medieval. (After all, we have 16th c. underpants from Italy as well.) Tangwystyl
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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        I tend to count 16th century as post-medieval. (After all, we have 16th c. underpants from Italy as well.)

        Tangwystyl

        On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:41 AM, lilinah@... wrote:

        > Heather Rose Jones wrote:
        >> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
        >> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
        >> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
        >>
        >> Tangwystyl
        >>
        >> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
        >> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
        >
        > Well, there's one 16th c. Ottoman underpants, called chakshir, which i have reproduced in my size... So, OMG, we have a surviving pair of medieval European underpants.
        >
        > Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
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        >
        >
      • Heather Rose Jones
        ... I forget whether the topic has been covered on this list since my post. (The discussion has been going on in parallel on at least a dozen different lists
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 3 9:04 PM
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          On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

          >
          >> Heather Rose Jones wrote:
          >>> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
          >>> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
          >>> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
          >>>
          >>> Tangwystyl
          >>>
          >>> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
          >>> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
          >
          > What reasons are those? We know more about men's underpants from
          > artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything
          > else, and not like these underpants.

          I forget whether the topic has been covered on this list since my post. (The discussion has been going on in parallel on at least a dozen different lists and forums that I frequent.) The very short version is:

          * This exact style of underpants can be seen worn by men in 15th c. German contexts.

          * There is extensive evidence both from art and text sources indicating that medieval Europeans (and by "medieval" I mean pre-16th century) considered underpants to be such a definitively masculine garment that they were used symbolically to represent women usurping masculine authority and status by wearing them. _Every_ artistic depiction I've found (or had pointed out to me) from medieval Europe that portrays women wearing or in the act of putting on underpants is in a context that is specifically depicting the woman either masquerading as a man or usurping masculine authority. The image depicted here:

          http://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/feminae/DetailsPage.aspx?Feminae_ID=30960

          is typical of the genre. Underpants-wearing women could not be such a consistent and powerful symbol of transgression if underpants were an ordinary, everyday female garment.

          Tangwystyl
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