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RE: [Authentic_SCA] 14th Century Bra Kind of Found in Austrian Castle

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  • Sigrid Briansdotter
    ... The brief article we are seeing in the Daily Mail seems to coincide with the August issue of the BBC History Magazine hitting the stands today. Beatriz
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 17, 2012
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      >So they found a pair of ladies undies as well, it is a good read but I am waiting for the University information



      >http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps-lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html



      >Mind the wrap!



      >Cilean





      The brief article we are seeing in the Daily Mail seems to coincide with
      the August issue of the "BBC History Magazine" hitting the stands
      today. Beatriz Nutz told me that she wrote an article (that is coming
      out in this particular issue) that "will contain images of two of the
      “bras” and the underpants (no patterns). As [she] wrote it for a popular
      audience there´s not much in the way of description of the artifacts to
      satisfy a scientific mind but it discusses the social acceptance of
      female underwear in the 15th and 16th century with quotes from some
      contemporary written sources on the topic." http://www.historyextra.com/blog/august-issue-out-now-0 Looks like one can get a Kindle version of this issue off Amazon.

      She
      wrote the BBC History Magazine article because the article she wrote on
      the Lengberg finds for a special "thématiques" issue of the French
      magazine “Histoire et Images Medievales” was being delayed in
      publication. Unfortunately for me the magazine is having her article
      translated into French. The article will "include images of three of the
      "bras", the underpants, shirt fragments, dress fragments and even some
      shoes." Beatrix just sent me a note that it is expected to be out on
      August 16th.

      Even more exciting... she says: "Something else to
      look forward to: There´s going to be a press release and public
      presentation of the Lengberg underwear at Lengberg Castle itself end of
      September (21st to 22nd). [She's] currently working on a booklet to be
      published for this event which will contain not only images of the finds
      but also patterns – plus it will be in German and English." The publication of the booklet has yet to be funded but, more details to follow about when and where we can order it once it has been published.

      I
      was actually lucky enough to be able to have gone to NESAT XI in May of
      2011 when Beatrix Nutz presented on the 15th century bras. I really
      enjoyed her presentation at NESAT XI and even more so the gatherings
      after the days presentations where we took over the local open air cafe and discussed ancient textiles (many of the participants were
      staying in the same hotel). She brought out the pictures and we all got
      to chat about them for a couple of days before her actual presentation
      (as well as other various textiles and projects). I'm guessing that is
      why I remember so much more of it than some of the others. Publication
      of the NESAT XI proceedings is supposed to be later this year but I
      haven't heard any specifics as to when. http://www.nesat.org/m2/volume.html

      Besides
      presenting at NESAT XI, she has presented at other conferences.
      Upcoming, she will be presenting at the Autumn Meeting of The Medieval
      Dress and Textile Society on October 27th, 2012.http://www.medats.org.uk/events/

      The Universität Innsbruck Forschungs project page on the Medieval Textiles found in the Lengberg Castle can be found at http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/forschungsprojekt-ma-textilien-lengberg.html
      It has links to some of the earlier press releases.

      Regards,
      Sigrid Briansdotter
      Anne Decker



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joe Jj
      Which explains why the many references in texts to women s underwear. I m working on gathering references and images of the types for a paper. Thank you for
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 17, 2012
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        Which explains why the many references in texts to women's underwear. I'm working on gathering references and images of the types for a paper. Thank you for the posting but I'll go back to my original site which is in German! And I have to struggle to translate it even with software (which hates medieval names). If you want I'll post the paper in files after its entered in 2013.Lady Leonarda      

        --- On Wed, 7/18/12, Cilean_69 <cilean@...> wrote:

        From: Cilean_69 <cilean@...>
        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] 14th Century Bra Kind of Found in Austrian Castle
        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2012, 12:28 AM
















         









        So they found a pair of ladies undies as well, it is a good read but I am waiting for the University information



        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps-lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html



        Mind the wrap!



        Cilean



























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Brad Moore
        I m curious how we can be certain they are women s undies?  They look just like the garments worn by men in the Men s Bath by Albrecht Durer.  Not to say
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 17, 2012
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          I'm curious how we can be certain they are women's undies?  They look just like the garments worn by men in the Men's Bath by Albrecht Durer.  Not to say of course that they would look terribly different for either men or women. 
           
          Here's a link for the Men's Bath:  http://www.albrecht-durer.org/The-Men's-Bath-large.html.
           
          Je Reste,
           
          Nicolas

          Brad Moore 

          "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
          - J.R.R. Tolkien

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for identifying them as _women s_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a surviving
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 17, 2012
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            On Jul 17, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Cilean_69 wrote:

            > So they found a pair of ladies undies as well, it is a good read but I am waiting for the University information
            >
            > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps-lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html
            >
            > Mind the wrap!
            >
            > Cilean

            They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a surviving pair of medieval underpants!

            Tangwystyl

            **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
          • xina007eu
            Hi all, The scientist who is working on these finds, Beatrix Nutz, thinks they are men s underpants. Unfortunately, she has not yet found someone who is
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 26, 2012
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              Hi all,

              The scientist who is working on these finds, Beatrix Nutz, thinks they are men's underpants. Unfortunately, she has not yet found someone who is willing to pose for a photo in a reproduction of these underpants. Her male colleagues are scientists and not underwear models. This is what she said in an interview, published in the German-language Die Welt newspaper:
              http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120711-lost-viking-town-germany-archaeology-science/

              Ms. Nutz is writing her doctoral thesis on these finds and plans to have an article on the underwear items in the NESAT XI publication (abstract of the NESAT talk is on http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/lecture_nutz.pdf).

              See
              http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/forschungsprojekt-ma-textilien-lengberg.html
              for more on the finds (also in German, but some of the linked articles are in English).
              On http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/projekte_forschung/textilien-lengberg/sortieraktion.html
              you can see people sorting through the textile finds - there seems to be a lot more stuff than just the underwear!

              Best regards,

              Christina

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > On Jul 17, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Cilean_69 wrote:
              >
              > > So they found a pair of ladies undies as well, it is a good read but I am waiting for the University information
              > >
              > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps-lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html
              > >
              > > Mind the wrap!
              > >
              > > Cilean
              >
              > They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a surviving pair of medieval underpants!
              >
              > Tangwystyl
              >
              > **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
              >
            • Scott Carledge
              After attending Tangwystyl s class on Getting into Women s Underwear, I shall hold any decision in abeyance until I hear (read) something from the expert.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 28, 2012
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                After attending Tangwystyl's class on "Getting into Women's Underwear," I
                shall hold any decision in abeyance until I hear (read)

                something from the expert. I join her in amazement that we actually found
                any medieval underwear.

                Colm



                From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Heather Rose Jones
                Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:00 AM
                To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] 14th Century Bra Kind of Found in Austrian
                Castle






                On Jul 17, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Cilean_69 wrote:

                > So they found a pair of ladies undies as well, it is a good read but I am
                waiting for the University information
                >
                >
                http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2174568/Found-castle-vault-scraps-
                lace-lingerie-rage-500-years-ago.html
                >
                > Mind the wrap!
                >
                > Cilean

                They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
                identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
                surviving pair of medieval underpants!

                Tangwystyl

                **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
                underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • lilinah@earthlink.net
                ... Well, there s one 16th c. Ottoman underpants, called chakshir, which i have reproduced in my size... So, OMG, we have a surviving pair of medieval European
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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                  Heather Rose Jones wrote:
                  > They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
                  > identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
                  > surviving pair of medieval underpants!
                  >
                  > Tangwystyl
                  >
                  > **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
                  > underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.

                  Well, there's one 16th c. Ottoman underpants, called chakshir, which i have reproduced in my size... So, OMG, we have a surviving pair of medieval European underpants.

                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                • Catherine Olanich Raymond
                  ... What reasons are those? We know more about men s underpants from artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything else, and not like
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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                    > Heather Rose Jones wrote:
                    >> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
                    >> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
                    >> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
                    >>
                    >> Tangwystyl
                    >>
                    >> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
                    >> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.

                    What reasons are those? We know more about men's underpants from
                    artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything
                    else, and not like these underpants.


                    --
                    Cathy Raymond
                    cathy@...
                    (610) 805-9542

                    "Remember that time is money."
                    --Benjamin Franklin
                  • Honour Horne-Jaruk
                    ... ...And we have four (or more) 16th century Italian undrepants. Knee-length, but still... Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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                      Respected friends:

                      --- On Sun, 7/29/12, lilinah@... <lilinah@...> wrote:

                      > > **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting
                      > that they are women's
                      > > underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the
                      > moment.
                      >
                      > Well, there's one 16th c. Ottoman underpants, called
                      > chakshir, which i have reproduced in my size... So, OMG, we
                      > have a surviving pair of medieval European underpants.
                      >
                      > Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      ...And we have four (or more) 16th century Italian undrepants. Knee-length, but still...

                      Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                      (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
                      Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

                      "If you're a normal human, the inside of your head is not a pretty
                      place. Venting it unfiltered to the internet may feel therapeutic,
                      but it's unlikely to end well."
                      --Goedjn
                    • Heather Rose Jones
                      I tend to count 16th century as post-medieval. (After all, we have 16th c. underpants from Italy as well.) Tangwystyl
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 29, 2012
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                        I tend to count 16th century as post-medieval. (After all, we have 16th c. underpants from Italy as well.)

                        Tangwystyl

                        On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:41 AM, lilinah@... wrote:

                        > Heather Rose Jones wrote:
                        >> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
                        >> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
                        >> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
                        >>
                        >> Tangwystyl
                        >>
                        >> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
                        >> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
                        >
                        > Well, there's one 16th c. Ottoman underpants, called chakshir, which i have reproduced in my size... So, OMG, we have a surviving pair of medieval European underpants.
                        >
                        > Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------
                        > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Heather Rose Jones
                        ... I forget whether the topic has been covered on this list since my post. (The discussion has been going on in parallel on at least a dozen different lists
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 3, 2012
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                          On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

                          >
                          >> Heather Rose Jones wrote:
                          >>> They found a pair of underpants. I have yet to see any sound reason for
                          >>> identifying them as _women's_ underpants.** Nevertheless, OMG we have a
                          >>> surviving pair of medieval underpants!
                          >>>
                          >>> Tangwystyl
                          >>>
                          >>> **There are excellent reasons for strongly doubting that they are women's
                          >>> underpants, but let's just leave it at that for the moment.
                          >
                          > What reasons are those? We know more about men's underpants from
                          > artwork, and they look more like modern tighty-whiteys than anything
                          > else, and not like these underpants.

                          I forget whether the topic has been covered on this list since my post. (The discussion has been going on in parallel on at least a dozen different lists and forums that I frequent.) The very short version is:

                          * This exact style of underpants can be seen worn by men in 15th c. German contexts.

                          * There is extensive evidence both from art and text sources indicating that medieval Europeans (and by "medieval" I mean pre-16th century) considered underpants to be such a definitively masculine garment that they were used symbolically to represent women usurping masculine authority and status by wearing them. _Every_ artistic depiction I've found (or had pointed out to me) from medieval Europe that portrays women wearing or in the act of putting on underpants is in a context that is specifically depicting the woman either masquerading as a man or usurping masculine authority. The image depicted here:

                          http://inpress.lib.uiowa.edu/feminae/DetailsPage.aspx?Feminae_ID=30960

                          is typical of the genre. Underpants-wearing women could not be such a consistent and powerful symbol of transgression if underpants were an ordinary, everyday female garment.

                          Tangwystyl
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