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Re: 1490-1510 Italian "Empire waist" gown

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  • karen_isaacson@ymail.com
    ... I m new to garb making, so I will not be making this period perfect, I don t want to waist good material on my mess-ups! I just want to be as close as I
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 12, 2011
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "jewett_christine" <dystopic@...> wrote:
      >
      I'm new to garb making, so I will not be making this period perfect, I don't want to waist good material on my mess-ups! I just want to be as close as I can at this stage without beating my head in, i.e, have a good foundation to build upon. So I am asking the experts - you good people! Please use your superior knowledge to point me in the right direction. :D

      My lady, I would suggest making a muslin (a pattern out of muslin cloth) to begin with. If you look here: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/PatternMod/Muslin.htm there are instructions and links to examples and other information (with the exception of The Renaissance Tailor; that link should be this: http://www.renaissancetailor.com and not the vertetsable URL). Muslin is cheap and relatively easy to work with, and you can make all your mistakes without fear of ruining your good fabric or even your just-trying-out-the-design fabric.

      Eydís Gunnarsdóttir
    • Ketil Hrafnhar
      Best of luck to you, you have my respect on hand sewing it all. I did that once...and only once. Now I machine sew everything and only hand sew finishing
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 12, 2011
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        Best of luck to you, you have my respect on hand sewing it all. I did that once...and only once. Now I machine sew everything and only hand sew finishing touches like hems and sleeve ends.

        Thorbjorn Polson


        ________________________________
        From: "karen_isaacson@..." <kareni@...>
        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:41 PM
        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 1490-1510 Italian "Empire waist" gown


         
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "jewett_christine" <dystopic@...> wrote:
        >
        I'm new to garb making, so I will not be making this period perfect, I don't want to waist good material on my mess-ups! I just want to be as close as I can at this stage without beating my head in, i.e, have a good foundation to build upon. So I am asking the experts - you good people! Please use your superior knowledge to point me in the right direction. :D

        My lady, I would suggest making a muslin (a pattern out of muslin cloth) to begin with. If you look here: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/PatternMod/Muslin.htm there are instructions and links to examples and other information (with the exception of The Renaissance Tailor; that link should be this: http://www.renaissancetailor.com and not the vertetsable URL). Muslin is cheap and relatively easy to work with, and you can make all your mistakes without fear of ruining your good fabric or even your just-trying-out-the-design fabric.

        Eydís Gunnarsdóttir




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Diane Sawyer Dooley
        I handsewed my last apron dress, including all the (not really historically accurate, but it looked fabulous) embellishment, and now I don t ever want to sew
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 12, 2011
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          I handsewed my last apron dress, including all the (not really historically accurate, but it looked fabulous) embellishment, and now I don't ever want to sew on my machine again.  Ever.  (I will, but under strenuous protest.)  I found it very relaxing.

          Tasha




          >________________________________
          >From: Ketil Hrafnhar <ketil1@...>
          >To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:17 PM
          >Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 1490-1510 Italian "Empire waist" gown
          >
          >

          >Best of luck to you, you have my respect on hand sewing it all. I did that once...and only once. Now I machine sew everything and only hand sew finishing touches like hems and sleeve ends.
          >
          >Thorbjorn Polson
          >
          >________________________________
          >From: "karen_isaacson@..." <kareni@...>
          >To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:41 PM
          >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 1490-1510 Italian "Empire waist" gown
          >

          >--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "jewett_christine" <dystopic@...> wrote:
          >>
          >I'm new to garb making, so I will not be making this period perfect, I don't want to waist good material on my mess-ups! I just want to be as close as I can at this stage without beating my head in, i.e, have a good foundation to build upon. So I am asking the experts - you good people! Please use your superior knowledge to point me in the right direction. :D
          >
          >My lady, I would suggest making a muslin (a pattern out of muslin cloth) to begin with. If you look here: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/PatternMod/Muslin.htm there are instructions and links to examples and other information (with the exception of The Renaissance Tailor; that link should be this: http://www.renaissancetailor.com and not the vertetsable URL). Muslin is cheap and relatively easy to work with, and you can make all your mistakes without fear of ruining your good fabric or even your just-trying-out-the-design fabric.
          >
          >Eydís Gunnarsdóttir
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • LJonthebay
          ... Same here. Handsewing can come to events with me and be done while socializing with friends, or I can work in front of the TV, while the great, nasty buzzy
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 13, 2011
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Diane Sawyer Dooley
            > I handsewed my last apron dress, including all the (not really historically accurate, but it looked fabulous) embellishment, and now I don't ever want to sew on my machine again.  Ever.  (I will, but under strenuous protest.)  I found it very relaxing.

            Same here. Handsewing can come to events with me and be done while socializing with friends, or I can work in front of the TV, while the great, nasty buzzy machine produces white noise that gets on my nerves. I hand sew everything.

            Saionji no Hana
            West
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            ... SNIP ... SNIP One place to ask for assistance is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming Best wishes! Urtatim (that s err-tah-TEEM)
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 13, 2011
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              jewett_christine wrote:
              > So I have my heart set on making a gown from this era, specifically the type with
              > the waist sitting just under the bust, with the wide neckline that rests on the
              > tips of the shoulders and the v-ed back.
              SNIP
              > I am saavy to the parts - chemise, underdress, overdress, tie-on sleeves, etc. -
              > but I'm a bit baffled as to where to begin with constructing the torso of this
              > gown style.
              SNIP

              One place to ask for assistance is
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming

              Best wishes!
              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            • Chris Laning
              I d definitely ask some more experienced people for tips, through a mailing list or online group or whatever you can find. Definitely do a muslin. One reason
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 13, 2011
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                I'd definitely ask some more experienced people for tips, through a mailing list or online group or whatever you can find. Definitely do a muslin.

                One reason to ask for tips from the experienced is that, with a wide neckline _and_ V back, you might encounter some "engineering" problems in keeping the thing from widening and slipping off your shoulders, or from going crooked when you wear it. (English Renaissance clothing mostly avoids this problem because the gowns with wide and low _front_ necklines generally _don't_ also have low backs, so there is something to hold everything together and keep it from expanding or slipping.)

                I know there are workarounds, probably some of them period and some of them not, such as careful tailoring and fitting in certain areas, reinforcements in certain areas, hidden interior bits and so forth, but asking people who have tried this will probably get you the best tactics.

                I've had the same slippage problem with a wide-necked surcote (late 1200s) and I remember recently reading something about how to stabilize it and keep it from slipping. I remember thinking "Oh neat, now I can actually wear the thing," but unfortunately I don't remember where or what it was.

                (Mind like a lint trap: lots of interesting fluff, no idea where most of it came from...)

                ____________________________________________________________
                0 Chris Laning
                | <claning@...>
                + Davis, California
                http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                ____________________________________________________________
              • jewett_christine
                Thanks everyone for the feedback - I m looking into EVERYTHING you all have said! (Fortunately I have 25 yds of muslin that just happens to be sitting in my
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 16, 2011
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                  Thanks everyone for the feedback - I'm looking into EVERYTHING you all have said! (Fortunately I have 25 yds of muslin that just happens to be sitting in my garage for the muslin mock-ups... :P)

                  Christine
                  aka Gunnil Peders Dotter
                • gianottadallafiora
                  ... If you want to cheat a bit, I used this pattern a long time ago to make a similar gown (V d front of the bodice, but not in the back):
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 17, 2011
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "jewett_christine" <dystopic@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > So I have my heart set on making a gown from this era, specifically the type with the waist sitting just under the bust, with the wide neckline that rests on the tips of the shoulders and the v-ed back. See: <a href="http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/artgallery1.htm">Realm of Venus</a> for examples in paintings.
                    >

                    If you want to cheat a bit, I used this pattern a long time ago to make a similar gown (V'd front of the bodice, but not in the back):

                    http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp-041.htm

                    Specifically, I used variation V. It looked pretty good, and for me, I find if I have pieces to play with, making a muslin is a lot less intimidating, since I am hopeless at draping and pattern-drafting anything more complicated than a tunic from scratch.

                    YIS,
                    Adelisa de Salernum
                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    Another source of potential use is Reconstructing History. They have 5 patterns for Florentine women s gowns covering about 3/4 of a century. RH511 may be what
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 18, 2011
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                      Another source of potential use is Reconstructing History. They have 5 patterns for Florentine women's gowns covering about 3/4 of a century. RH511 may be what you're interested in.
                      http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/products?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=florentine

                      Disclaimer
                      I have not used these patterns and cannot comment on historical accuracy, fit, instructions, etc. Some RH patterns appear excellent and some could be a lot better, but that is true of any patterns for historically based clothing.

                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                    • Susanne Hibbert
                      Thank you for the post. I will forward to a friend of mine who would love info and group to join that works on only this period of Italian garb. THLady Susana
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 18, 2011
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                        Thank you for the post. I will forward to a friend of mine who would love info and group to join that works on only this period of Italian garb.
                        THLady Susana



                        ________________________________
                        From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:55 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] 1490-1510 Italian "Empire waist" gown


                         
                        jewett_christine wrote:
                        > So I have my heart set on making a gown from this era, specifically the type with
                        > the waist sitting just under the bust, with the wide neckline that rests on the
                        > tips of the shoulders and the v-ed back.
                        SNIP
                        > I am saavy to the parts - chemise, underdress, overdress, tie-on sleeves, etc. -
                        > but I'm a bit baffled as to where to begin with constructing the torso of this
                        > gown style.
                        SNIP

                        One place to ask for assistance is
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Italian_Renaissance_Costuming

                        Best wishes!
                        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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