RE: [Authentic_SCA] Wappenrock/Waffenrock/Bases questions...
- Shirt and skirt are the same word but in two different languages--I seem to
they are both from kirtle.
From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Susan Meitzler
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Wappenrock/Waffenrock/Bases questions...
1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it's is literally
a "war shirt
2)The waffenrock was usually worn under armor as much as I have seen.
The mantle and chest piece have become part of the waffenrock ensemble.
3)Wams is a separate piece all together and usually worn with hosen
and has nothing to do with a waffenrock and the top and bottom are
connected as almost a dress. Wams are usually made with a series of
triangles pieced together while a waffenrock has at least one rectangle
4) You can do without the sleeves as almost a "tank" style but I would
add sleeves of a contrasting color to make it look spiffy
Now if anyone does disagree I won't argue. As one of the core members
of a Landsknecht unit's baggage train and maker of clothes, these are
just my personal observations as no extant waffenrock still exists
Lady Magdalena Von KDT
East kingdom/ shire of Eisental
On Aug 23, 2011, at 6:11 PM, JL Badgley wrote:
> I'm looking for help with late 15th/early 16th century German garments
> for wearing with armor. I've been pointed to the "wappenrock", which
> appears to be a wams/doublet garment with a pleated skirt--though I
> think the term applies equally to other garments (I see it used for
> military coats, surcoats, etc.). The skirt appears to be called
> "bases" by some, and I found one example showing that it was padded.
> I'm looking to make my appearance in armor *more* correct while I wait
> to get metal everywhere ;) This seems like it could cover some sins,
> if I understand it correctly, and add some extra protection
> Question 1) Is the above generally correct? Do people understand what
> I"m looking for?
> Question 2) Would wams/wappenrock be worn *over* armor, such as this:
> Question 3) Is it one garment, or are they separate?
> Question 4) Should the sleeves be integral, or are they usually an
> undergarment showing through, like a doublet under a jerkin?
> I realize more information may be needed, but I don't know what at
> this time. I would appreciate any help--I've found a coupe of things
> online, but not much, and I fear I may be searching the wrong terms
> (or just in English).
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- On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Susan Meitzler <nerdgirl@...> wrote:
> 1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it's is literallyThis is the "skirt" (bases) that I am talking about:
> a "war shirt
That is the underside, and I've seen others that say that bases such
as this were often a separate piece to go on under the armor.
However, I'm seeing things like this fellow in blue:
Is that a "wappenrock" he has on over armor? Or does he just not have
a breastplate on at all? Thoughts?
And is this a wappenrock as an arming garment?
> 3)Wams is a separate piece all together and usually worn with hosenOkay, I think someone was suggesting that the torso of the waffenrock
> and has nothing to do with a waffenrock and the top and bottom are
> connected as almost a dress. Wams are usually made with a series of
> triangles pieced together while a waffenrock has at least one rectangle
be made like a wams and I got confused.
> 4) You can do without the sleeves as almost a "tank" style but I wouldYeah. Besides, poofy sleeves hide more lack of appropriate armor ;)
> add sleeves of a contrasting color to make it look spiffy
> Now if anyone does disagree I won't argue. As one of the core membersI really appreciate all of the help. I"m planning to find some cheap
> of a Landsknecht unit's baggage train and maker of clothes, these are
> just my personal observations as no extant waffenrock still exists
> Lady Magdalena Von KDT
> East kingdom/ shire of Eisental
(but natural) fabric to practice with as I won't care if it gets beat
up too much.
This seems to have a lot in common with the Henrican doublet shown in
the "Tudor Tailor" book--am I seeing a true link, or just something of
my imagination? Fortunately, that copy should come in a few days :)
Many other books will have to wait until mid to late September, when
stuff arrives. :(
More questions on the construction:
How does it open and close?
- I've seen people make them so they appear to be an "over the head"
garment. This strikes me as wrong, though easy.
- Others show a side lacing, which makes sense, though I'm not sure
about how the bases of the garment would work, then--I presume it
would also lace up one side.
- Some seem to show an overlap at the chest, so there are two layers
there. If so, which one is connected to the arm straps?? I would
imagine the layer underneath.
PS: If I miss something vitally important that you already pointed
out, please forgive me and feel free to repoint me to it.
- Yes, "skirt" is the North Germanic variant that came to England the Vikings. Other "sk" words that came into English that way are "skin" and "sky".
German "Rock" today means skirt, but in the past the word was used to denote what we today would call a coat, jacket, doublet or even tunic.
A "Waffenrock" is not the padded garment worn under armour but the decorated garment worn over it, often with a coat of arms on it (which led to the variant "Wappenrock", from Wappen = coat of arms). Later, it came to mean a uniform coat (18th / 19th century).
I hope that helps!
--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Catledge" <Scat@...> wrote:
> Shirt and skirt are the same word but in two different languages--I seem to
> recollect that
> they are both from kirtle.
- From my own research, I believe the Waffenrock was worn over armor. Check out landsknecht.org, its free to join, and lots of great information and source images are available there. There are images of a breastplate being worn over the 'rock, but more often the armor is underneath. Bases (the "skirt") are pleated, and in most German examples I've seen were attached. There are English examples which are separate, specifically to be worn with tournament armor (see Dr. Maria Hayward's research in Textiles and Text). Sleeves are usually integral, but I have seen examples made by reenactors which have lace on 3/4 length sleeves. Some Italian versions appear to be sleeveless over a doublet (see Mass of Bolsena by Raphael Sanzio in the Vatican). Also check out a copy of Un Banquier Mis A Nu, a French mimeograph of a 16th century German Manuscript detailing the clothing of Matthaus Schwarz. The proper layers are doublet and hose (wams und hosen)
with the Waffenrock worn over the top of these. A gown may be worn over the Waffenrock in some cases, as well. If you like, message me privately and I will try to provide more specifics.
En Service au Reve,
Lord Nicolas L'Anguille
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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