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Wappenrock/Waffenrock/Bases questions...

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  • JL Badgley
    I m looking for help with late 15th/early 16th century German garments for wearing with armor. I ve been pointed to the wappenrock , which appears to be a
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 23, 2011
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      I'm looking for help with late 15th/early 16th century German garments
      for wearing with armor. I've been pointed to the "wappenrock", which
      appears to be a wams/doublet garment with a pleated skirt--though I
      think the term applies equally to other garments (I see it used for
      military coats, surcoats, etc.). The skirt appears to be called
      "bases" by some, and I found one example showing that it was padded.

      I'm looking to make my appearance in armor *more* correct while I wait
      to get metal everywhere ;) This seems like it could cover some sins,
      if I understand it correctly, and add some extra protection

      Question 1) Is the above generally correct? Do people understand what
      I"m looking for?

      Question 2) Would wams/wappenrock be worn *over* armor, such as this:
      http://members.armourarchive.org/robertdc/Raglan2010/TomMonmouthByPavillion.jpg

      Question 3) Is it one garment, or are they separate?

      Question 4) Should the sleeves be integral, or are they usually an
      undergarment showing through, like a doublet under a jerkin?

      I realize more information may be needed, but I don't know what at
      this time. I would appreciate any help--I've found a coupe of things
      online, but not much, and I fear I may be searching the wrong terms
      (or just in English).

      -E.
    • Susan Meitzler
      1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it s is literally a war shirt 2)The waffenrock was usually worn under armor as much as I have seen. The
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 23, 2011
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        1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it's is literally
        a "war shirt
        2)The waffenrock was usually worn under armor as much as I have seen.
        The mantle and chest piece have become part of the waffenrock ensemble.
        3)Wams is a separate piece all together and usually worn with hosen
        and has nothing to do with a waffenrock and the top and bottom are
        connected as almost a dress. Wams are usually made with a series of
        triangles pieced together while a waffenrock has at least one rectangle
        4) You can do without the sleeves as almost a "tank" style but I would
        add sleeves of a contrasting color to make it look spiffy
        Now if anyone does disagree I won't argue. As one of the core members
        of a Landsknecht unit's baggage train and maker of clothes, these are
        just my personal observations as no extant waffenrock still exists
        YIS,
        Lady Magdalena Von KDT
        East kingdom/ shire of Eisental

        On Aug 23, 2011, at 6:11 PM, JL Badgley wrote:

        > I'm looking for help with late 15th/early 16th century German garments
        > for wearing with armor. I've been pointed to the "wappenrock", which
        > appears to be a wams/doublet garment with a pleated skirt--though I
        > think the term applies equally to other garments (I see it used for
        > military coats, surcoats, etc.). The skirt appears to be called
        > "bases" by some, and I found one example showing that it was padded.
        >
        > I'm looking to make my appearance in armor *more* correct while I wait
        > to get metal everywhere ;) This seems like it could cover some sins,
        > if I understand it correctly, and add some extra protection
        >
        > Question 1) Is the above generally correct? Do people understand what
        > I"m looking for?
        >
        > Question 2) Would wams/wappenrock be worn *over* armor, such as this:
        > http://members.armourarchive.org/robertdc/Raglan2010/TomMonmouthByPavillion.jpg
        >
        > Question 3) Is it one garment, or are they separate?
        >
        > Question 4) Should the sleeves be integral, or are they usually an
        > undergarment showing through, like a doublet under a jerkin?
        >
        > I realize more information may be needed, but I don't know what at
        > this time. I would appreciate any help--I've found a coupe of things
        > online, but not much, and I fear I may be searching the wrong terms
        > (or just in English).
        >
        > -E.
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Scott Catledge
        Shirt and skirt are the same word but in two different languages--I seem to recollect that they are both from kirtle. ... From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 23, 2011
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          Shirt and skirt are the same word but in two different languages--I seem to
          recollect that
          they are both from kirtle.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Susan Meitzler
          Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:57 PM
          To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Wappenrock/Waffenrock/Bases questions...

          1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it's is literally
          a "war shirt
          2)The waffenrock was usually worn under armor as much as I have seen.
          The mantle and chest piece have become part of the waffenrock ensemble.
          3)Wams is a separate piece all together and usually worn with hosen
          and has nothing to do with a waffenrock and the top and bottom are
          connected as almost a dress. Wams are usually made with a series of
          triangles pieced together while a waffenrock has at least one rectangle
          4) You can do without the sleeves as almost a "tank" style but I would
          add sleeves of a contrasting color to make it look spiffy
          Now if anyone does disagree I won't argue. As one of the core members
          of a Landsknecht unit's baggage train and maker of clothes, these are
          just my personal observations as no extant waffenrock still exists
          YIS,
          Lady Magdalena Von KDT
          East kingdom/ shire of Eisental

          On Aug 23, 2011, at 6:11 PM, JL Badgley wrote:

          > I'm looking for help with late 15th/early 16th century German garments
          > for wearing with armor. I've been pointed to the "wappenrock", which
          > appears to be a wams/doublet garment with a pleated skirt--though I
          > think the term applies equally to other garments (I see it used for
          > military coats, surcoats, etc.). The skirt appears to be called
          > "bases" by some, and I found one example showing that it was padded.
          >
          > I'm looking to make my appearance in armor *more* correct while I wait
          > to get metal everywhere ;) This seems like it could cover some sins,
          > if I understand it correctly, and add some extra protection
          >
          > Question 1) Is the above generally correct? Do people understand what
          > I"m looking for?
          >
          > Question 2) Would wams/wappenrock be worn *over* armor, such as this:
          >
          http://members.armourarchive.org/robertdc/Raglan2010/TomMonmouthByPavillion.
          jpg
          >
          > Question 3) Is it one garment, or are they separate?
          >
          > Question 4) Should the sleeves be integral, or are they usually an
          > undergarment showing through, like a doublet under a jerkin?
          >
          > I realize more information may be needed, but I don't know what at
          > this time. I would appreciate any help--I've found a coupe of things
          > online, but not much, and I fear I may be searching the wrong terms
          > (or just in English).
          >
          > -E.
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          ----------------------------------------------------
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        • JL Badgley
          ... This is the skirt (bases) that I am talking about: http://hfl.avacal.org/blog/?tag=german-renaissance That is the underside, and I ve seen others that
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 23, 2011
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            On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Susan Meitzler <nerdgirl@...> wrote:
            > 1) do not call it a skirt from what i have been told it's is literally
            > a "war shirt

            This is the "skirt" (bases) that I am talking about:
            http://hfl.avacal.org/blog/?tag=german-renaissance

            That is the underside, and I've seen others that say that bases such
            as this were often a separate piece to go on under the armor.

            However, I'm seeing things like this fellow in blue:
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/bibliodyssey/3417297551/in/photostream/lightbox/

            Is that a "wappenrock" he has on over armor? Or does he just not have
            a breastplate on at all? Thoughts?

            And is this a wappenrock as an arming garment?
            http://www.hammaborg.de/de/bilder_videos/museen/steppwams_luebeck/index.php

            > 3)Wams is a separate piece all together and usually worn with hosen
            > and has nothing to do with a waffenrock and the top and bottom are
            > connected as almost a dress. Wams  are usually made with a series of
            > triangles pieced together while a waffenrock has at least one rectangle

            Okay, I think someone was suggesting that the torso of the waffenrock
            be made like a wams and I got confused.

            > 4) You can do without the sleeves as almost a "tank" style but I would
            > add sleeves of a contrasting color to make it look spiffy

            Yeah. Besides, poofy sleeves hide more lack of appropriate armor ;)

            > Now if anyone does disagree I won't argue. As one of the core members
            > of a Landsknecht unit's baggage train and maker of clothes, these are
            > just my personal observations as no extant waffenrock still exists
            > YIS,
            > Lady Magdalena Von KDT
            > East kingdom/ shire of Eisental
            >

            I really appreciate all of the help. I"m planning to find some cheap
            (but natural) fabric to practice with as I won't care if it gets beat
            up too much.

            This seems to have a lot in common with the Henrican doublet shown in
            the "Tudor Tailor" book--am I seeing a true link, or just something of
            my imagination? Fortunately, that copy should come in a few days :)
            Many other books will have to wait until mid to late September, when
            stuff arrives. :(

            More questions on the construction:

            How does it open and close?
            - I've seen people make them so they appear to be an "over the head"
            garment. This strikes me as wrong, though easy.
            - Others show a side lacing, which makes sense, though I'm not sure
            about how the bases of the garment would work, then--I presume it
            would also lace up one side.
            - Some seem to show an overlap at the chest, so there are two layers
            there. If so, which one is connected to the arm straps?? I would
            imagine the layer underneath.


            -E.

            PS: If I miss something vitally important that you already pointed
            out, please forgive me and feel free to repoint me to it.
          • xina007eu
            Yes, skirt is the North Germanic variant that came to England the Vikings. Other sk words that came into English that way are skin and sky . German
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 24, 2011
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              Yes, "skirt" is the North Germanic variant that came to England the Vikings. Other "sk" words that came into English that way are "skin" and "sky".

              German "Rock" today means skirt, but in the past the word was used to denote what we today would call a coat, jacket, doublet or even tunic.

              A "Waffenrock" is not the padded garment worn under armour but the decorated garment worn over it, often with a coat of arms on it (which led to the variant "Wappenrock", from Wappen = coat of arms). Later, it came to mean a uniform coat (18th / 19th century).

              I hope that helps!

              Best regards,

              Christina

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Catledge" <Scat@...> wrote:
              >
              > Shirt and skirt are the same word but in two different languages--I seem to
              > recollect that
              > they are both from kirtle.
              >
            • Brad Moore
              From my own research, I believe the Waffenrock was worn over armor.  Check out landsknecht.org, its free to join, and lots of great information and source
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 24, 2011
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                From my own research, I believe the Waffenrock was worn over armor.  Check out landsknecht.org, its free to join, and lots of great information and source images are available there.  There are images of a breastplate being worn over the 'rock, but more often the armor is underneath.  Bases (the "skirt") are pleated, and in most German examples I've seen were attached. There are English examples which are separate, specifically to be worn with tournament armor (see Dr. Maria Hayward's research in Textiles and Text).  Sleeves are usually integral, but I have seen examples made by reenactors which have lace on 3/4 length sleeves.  Some Italian versions appear to be sleeveless over a doublet (see Mass of Bolsena by Raphael Sanzio in the Vatican).  Also check out a copy of Un Banquier Mis A Nu, a French mimeograph of a 16th century German Manuscript detailing the clothing of Matthaus Schwarz.  The proper layers are doublet and hose (wams und hosen)
                with the Waffenrock worn over the top of these.  A gown may be worn over the Waffenrock in some cases, as well.  If you like, message me privately and I will try to provide more specifics.
                 
                Je Reste,
                 
                En Service au Reve,
                 
                Lord Nicolas L'Anguille

                Brad Moore 

                "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
                - J.R.R. Tolkien


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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