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RE: [Authentic_SCA] Dog collars in period

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  • Fred Zeiler
    Alianor, Thank you! Frederick From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarah Michele Ford Sent: Monday, July 18,
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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      Alianor,

      Thank you!



      Frederick



      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Sarah Michele Ford
      Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 7:10 AM
      To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Dog collars in period





      I've forwarded your request to a friend who does hound research.

      Alianor de R.

      Sarah Michele Ford
      http://sarahmichelef.wordpress.com

      On Jul 18, 2011, at 1:00, "frederickalten" <freddiezeiler@...
      <mailto:freddiezeiler%40gmail.com> > wrote:

      > Greeting all,
      >
      > Does anyone know of any pictures of dog collars between our SCA time
      period. I
      > have found a few, but they are hunting collars. Anyone know of any SCA
      papers on
      > dog collars would help.
      >
      > It seems I keep pick subject of little resources.
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      >
      > Frederick
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------
      > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Heidi Ligget
      ... The Link is at: http://www.larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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        >
        > Karen Larsdatter has links to paintings and drawings that show dogs with
        > collars and leashes.


        The Link is at:

        http://www.larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Karen_Larsdatter
        ... Sure; you ll find quite a lot at http://larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm You could also check out this article:
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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          Frederick asked:

          > Does anyone know of any pictures of dog collars between our SCA time
          > period. I have found a few, but they are hunting collars.

          Sure; you'll find quite a lot at
          http://larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm

          You could also check out this article:
          http://web.archive.org/web/20080719040246/http://members.aol.com/noramunro/Kennels/collars.htm



          Karen Larsdatter
          www.larsdatter.com
        • Daniel Brizendine
          I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just pets . Nearly all
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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            I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting
            collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just "pets". Nearly
            all persons and animals in the working households had to have some manner in
            which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have seemed unseemly for a
            dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the work. Most dogs either
            were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.

            Zsigmund

            On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Heidi Ligget <hligget@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > >
            > > Karen Larsdatter has links to paintings and drawings that show dogs with
            > > collars and leashes.
            >
            > The Link is at:
            >
            > http://www.larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            --
            *Szapolyai Zsigmund
            Kingdom of Calontir

            *


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • peryn7
            What kind of dog do you want the collar for? What s the purpose for the collar? There are a couple types of collars I ve run across in my research. Belled
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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              What kind of dog do you want the collar for? What's the purpose for the collar?

              There are a couple types of collars I've run across in my research.

              Belled
              Usually red, sometimes gold, collar with gold rumbler bells.
              http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/c/carpacci/5/01ladies.html
              Collar is probably leather. Bells may be cast or shaped from sheet. Native American suppliers have decent replicas of the shaped type. Falconry supply has decent cast. These collars are for smaller pets (dogs, ferrets, even a young pig :) Many images of small sighthounds with these. Popular on the little dogs on tomb effigies and interior scenes in art work.

              Fixed buckle
              Leather, but some evidence of leather with embroidered velvet covering. Various heights, and details from plain to elaborate. http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/all/the_unicorn_in_captivity/objectview_enlarge.aspx?page=1&sort=6&sortdir=asc&keyword=37.80.6&fp=1&dd1=0&dd2=0&vw=1&collID=0&OID=70007568&vT=1&hi=0&ov=0
              There is a fancy version where each end has 3 tabs, the middle tabs buckle together. http://www.dia.org/object-info/75abd25b-aed4-47cc-9698-236bc3eeef25.aspx?position=2

              Martingale
              There are a number of variants on this, but here's the basic example
              http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/the_cloisters/set_of_fifty_two_playing_cards/objectview_zoom.aspx?page=99&sort=0&sortdir=asc&keyword=&fp=1&dd1=7&dd2=0&vw=1&collID=7&OID=70016900&vT=1&hi=0&ov=0
              Zoom in on the collars. Probably a leather collar, middle tab on each side is attached to a chain. Middle of chain attached to the leash. Buckle on right side adjusts tightness. Pull on the ring and the collar tightens, release and it losens. Very useful with sighthounds whose necks are as big as the base of their head. Another example here http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/devonshire-hunting-tapestries/#

              Tall collar
              My best guess is made of metal or stiff leather (OOP examples at Leeds are metal, some very fancy). Seen mostly (and the tallest ones especially) on sighthounds.
              http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/all/the_unicorn_is_killed_and_brought_to_the_castle/objectview_zoom.aspx?page=1&sort=6&sortdir=asc&keyword=37.80.5&fp=1&dd1=0&dd2=0&vw=1&collID=0&OID=70007567&vT=1&hi=0&ov=0
              Notice the ring you loop the leash through. OOP examples at Leeds, some where it swivels(!). My current theory is some how the height and stiffness make it hard for the dog to get out of the collar. Haven't tested the idea yet. The ones at Leeds of metal have a hinge on one side and a pin closure on other. A variant has a metal flange with holes that goes over a fixed loop, leash through loop keeps it closed.

              There are tons of examples in the artwork once you get used to looking for dogs. Lots of pictures on the Web Gallery of Art. I've been collecting images for close to 10 years. Any museum may have dog collars (statues, tapestries, paintings). Leeds doesn't have much in period collars, most of those are metal spiked collars. but it's definitely worth a visit if you're in the neighborhood. They published a book, you can inter-library loan for it.

              Let me know which style (and time period) you are intersted in and I can help you find more images.

              Peryn
              Meridies


              > Does anyone know of any pictures of dog collars between our SCA time period. I
              > have found a few, but they are hunting collars. Anyone know of any SCA papers on
              > dog collars would help.
              >
              > It seems I keep pick subject of little resources.
              >
              > Thanks in advance,
              >
              > Frederick
              >
            • peryn7
              There were a wide variety of dog types throughout our time period of study. (breeds are a Victorian convention with the rise of Victorian dog clubs and
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                There were a wide variety of dog types throughout our time period of study. (breeds are a Victorian convention with the rise of Victorian dog clubs and written/judged standards for each breed).

                Once you start looking for dogs in period artwork they are everywhere, inside the house and out. And for all levels of society. Small dogs were the favorite pets of those who could afford them and wanted the companionship (usually ladies of means and religious officials of means). They are at the foot of many tomb effigies from the 1300s forward (possibly earlier?).

                It really depends on the time/area of interest as to what was there and what it was being used for. Our time period is *vast*. But in general I've found for small pet dogs (1300s - 1600 western europe) the belled collar was very common, with the buckle collar a far second and a few (kinda) tall collars on very small sighthounds (Gaston Phoebus - feasting scene).

                Speaking as an owner of 2 Italian Greyhounds (14-16 lbs, smallest of the sighthounds). Their duty is companionship and warmth. They give off an amazing amount of heat and have been excellent bed warmers on cold nights at camping events. They are charming little hot water bottles.

                Although we see small sighthounds in the westen parts of the middle east pre-medieval, it's their popularity starting in 1400s Italy that really sealed the deal. There is a mid 1400s Italian painting of women playing with a group of small white sighthounds (I think it's at the MET).

                Peryn
                Meridies


                > I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting
                > collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just "pets". Nearly
                > all persons and animals in the working households had to have some manner in
                > which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have seemed unseemly for a
                > dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the work. Most dogs either
                > were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.
                >
                > Zsigmund
              • Sarah Michele Ford
                ... Just looking at the Manesse Codex, there were clearly pet dogs. http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0148
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                  On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:16, Daniel Brizendine <norseceltbear@...>wrote:

                  > I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting
                  > collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just "pets".
                  > Nearly
                  > all persons and animals in the working households had to have some manner
                  > in
                  > which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have seemed unseemly for
                  > a
                  > dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the work. Most dogs either
                  > were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.
                  >

                  Just looking at the Manesse Codex, there were clearly "pet" dogs.

                  http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0148
                  http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0009
                  http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0191
                  http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0123

                  And I know they appear in lots of other art as well.

                  Alianor de R.


                  >
                  > Zsigmund
                  >
                  > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Heidi Ligget <hligget@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Karen Larsdatter has links to paintings and drawings that show dogs
                  > with
                  > > > collars and leashes.
                  > >
                  > > The Link is at:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > *Szapolyai Zsigmund
                  > Kingdom of Calontir
                  >
                  > *
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------
                  > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Susanne Hibbert
                  I agree. Pictorially, it looks like pets started showing up with their ladies in late period paintings....lap dogs for the most part. Our local group has
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                    I agree. Pictorially, it looks like "pets" started showing up with their ladies
                    in late period paintings....lap dogs for the most part. Our local group has
                    course hounds, and their are a few late period ladies that have their tiny
                    pooches carried in the hand. One person has brought her working dog to carry
                    water for the heavy suit fighters. Whether work dog, hunting hounds, or little
                    pet, dogs are part of the Society tradition.
                    Susana





                    ________________________________
                    From: Daniel Brizendine <norseceltbear@...>
                    To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:16:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Dog collars in period


                    I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting
                    collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just "pets". Nearly
                    all persons and animals in the working households had to have some manner in
                    which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have seemed unseemly for a
                    dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the work. Most dogs either
                    were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.

                    Zsigmund

                    On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Heidi Ligget <hligget@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Karen Larsdatter has links to paintings and drawings that show dogs with
                    > > collars and leashes.
                    >
                    > The Link is at:
                    >
                    > http://www.larsdatter.com/dog-collar-leashes.htm
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    *SzapolyaiZsigmund
                    Kingdom of Calontir

                    *

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Honour Horne-Jaruk
                    ... I believe that was only partly true. There were a lot of small dogs. The nun in the Canterbury Tales is accompanied by an unmistakable pet, a tiny and
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                      Respected friends:

                      --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Daniel Brizendine <norseceltbear@...> wrote:

                      > I would argue that one of the reasons
                      > that there appears mostly hunting
                      > collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were
                      > just "pets". Nearly
                      > all persons and animals in the working households had to
                      > have some manner in
                      > which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have
                      > seemed unseemly for a
                      > dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the
                      > work. Most dogs either
                      > were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.
                      >
                      > Zsigmund

                      I believe that was only partly true. There were a lot of small dogs. The nun in the Canterbury Tales is accompanied by an unmistakable pet, a tiny and useless lap dog. However, even those little dogs had some function in the colder middle ages- they were heat sources.
                      Other working dogs of our time period: guardian dogs, both for animals (sheep-guard dogs, including the Italian Komondor and the Hungarian/ russian borzoi; general livestock guards such as the Hungarian Kuvasz) and for humans (the Irish dogs Cu-Culaigne found himself replacing, and the dual-purpose Dogue de Bordeaux.)
                      There were also an unbelievable range of ratters, and some vermin-killers (dogs mostly used to dig our fox dens.) The "sport" breeds, such as bulldogs, have - fortunately - been re-purposed, but they were originally kept solely for such charming spectacles as bull and bear baiting. Also immensely important were cart dogs, of which the sole survivor bred exclusively for that purpose seems to be the Bouvier de Flandres. Then there's strange outliers such as fire-finders (dalmation ancestors) coach dogs, who seem to have been bred mostly to look good keeping pace with horses, the odd little dogs that were called turnspits, and the search-and-rescue breed Saint Bernards (Named after the Swiss monastery from which they went forth to find avalanche survivors and people trapped in blizzards.)
                      All in all, quite a collection. Any other jobs I missed?

                      Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                      (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
                      Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

                      "If you're a normal human, the inside of your head is not a pretty
                      place. Venting it unfiltered to the internet may feel therapeutic,
                      but it's unlikely to end well."
                      --Goedjn
                    • Daniel Brizendine
                      Yes Ma am I understand that. As someone who studies canine development in early societies and as a former Italian Greyhound breeder I would disagree that they
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                        Yes Ma'am I understand that. As someone who studies canine development in
                        early societies and as a former Italian Greyhound breeder I would disagree
                        that they were only for companionship. In fact, the IG is a pure greyhound
                        that was breed down during the Egyptian late period as a rabbit dog. If you
                        have ever seen these sighthounds course or chase prey you would see that
                        their hunt drive is very much still in tact.

                        Zsigmund

                        On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:13 AM, peryn7 <anicholls@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > There were a wide variety of dog types throughout our time period of study.
                        > (breeds are a Victorian convention with the rise of Victorian dog clubs and
                        > written/judged standards for each breed).
                        >
                        > Once you start looking for dogs in period artwork they are everywhere,
                        > inside the house and out. And for all levels of society. Small dogs were the
                        > favorite pets of those who could afford them and wanted the companionship
                        > (usually ladies of means and religious officials of means). They are at the
                        > foot of many tomb effigies from the 1300s forward (possibly earlier?).
                        >
                        > It really depends on the time/area of interest as to what was there and
                        > what it was being used for. Our time period is *vast*. But in general I've
                        > found for small pet dogs (1300s - 1600 western europe) the belled collar was
                        > very common, with the buckle collar a far second and a few (kinda) tall
                        > collars on very small sighthounds (Gaston Phoebus - feasting scene).
                        >
                        > Speaking as an owner of 2 Italian Greyhounds (14-16 lbs, smallest of the
                        > sighthounds). Their duty is companionship and warmth. They give off an
                        > amazing amount of heat and have been excellent bed warmers on cold nights at
                        > camping events. They are charming little hot water bottles.
                        >
                        > Although we see small sighthounds in the westen parts of the middle east
                        > pre-medieval, it's their popularity starting in 1400s Italy that really
                        > sealed the deal. There is a mid 1400s Italian painting of women playing with
                        > a group of small white sighthounds (I think it's at the MET).
                        >
                        > Peryn
                        > Meridies
                        >
                        >
                        > > I would argue that one of the reasons that there appears mostly hunting
                        > > collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were just "pets".
                        > Nearly
                        > > all persons and animals in the working households had to have some manner
                        > in
                        > > which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have seemed unseemly
                        > for a
                        > > dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the work. Most dogs either
                        > > were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.
                        > >
                        > > Zsigmund
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        *Szapolyai Zsigmund
                        Kingdom of Calontir

                        *


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Daniel Brizendine
                        I did not go far enough in my explanation and you are right. There was many other types of dogs but even the smallest dog was used as ratters and other such
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 18, 2011
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                          I did not go far enough in my explanation and you are right. There was many
                          other types of dogs but even the smallest dog was used as ratters and other
                          such uses. Example the Tibetan Terrier and the Shitzu while not large were
                          used in connection with the Tibetian Mastiff to protect the temples. This
                          is just one example. There were many other examples where small dogs where
                          used for a variety of jobs. The Shipperke which was used by the Dutch
                          Sailors on the canals to alert the people in the towns and keep away pests
                          on the boats.

                          You make my arguement that canines had many jobs but they had jobs
                          nonetheless

                          Yours in Service and Study

                          Zsigmund

                          On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp@...>wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Respected friends:
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Daniel Brizendine <norseceltbear@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I would argue that one of the reasons
                          > > that there appears mostly hunting
                          > > collars is that few if any dogs in the middle ages were
                          > > just "pets". Nearly
                          > > all persons and animals in the working households had to
                          > > have some manner in
                          > > which to "earn their keep" and therefore it would have
                          > > seemed unseemly for a
                          > > dog to just lay about and not be doing any of the
                          > > work. Most dogs either
                          > > were some sort of hunter or some sort of herder.
                          > >
                          > > Zsigmund
                          >
                          > I believe that was only partly true. There were a lot of small dogs. The
                          > nun in the Canterbury Tales is accompanied by an unmistakable pet, a tiny
                          > and useless lap dog. However, even those little dogs had some function in
                          > the colder middle ages- they were heat sources.
                          > Other working dogs of our time period: guardian dogs, both for animals
                          > (sheep-guard dogs, including the Italian Komondor and the Hungarian/ russian
                          > borzoi; general livestock guards such as the Hungarian Kuvasz) and for
                          > humans (the Irish dogs Cu-Culaigne found himself replacing, and the
                          > dual-purpose Dogue de Bordeaux.)
                          > There were also an unbelievable range of ratters, and some vermin-killers
                          > (dogs mostly used to dig our fox dens.) The "sport" breeds, such as
                          > bulldogs, have - fortunately - been re-purposed, but they were originally
                          > kept solely for such charming spectacles as bull and bear baiting. Also
                          > immensely important were cart dogs, of which the sole survivor bred
                          > exclusively for that purpose seems to be the Bouvier de Flandres. Then
                          > there's strange outliers such as fire-finders (dalmation ancestors) coach
                          > dogs, who seem to have been bred mostly to look good keeping pace with
                          > horses, the odd little dogs that were called turnspits, and the
                          > search-and-rescue breed Saint Bernards (Named after the Swiss monastery from
                          > which they went forth to find avalanche survivors and people trapped in
                          > blizzards.)
                          > All in all, quite a collection. Any other jobs I missed?
                          >
                          > Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                          > (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
                          > Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict
                          >
                          > "If you're a normal human, the inside of your head is not a pretty
                          > place. Venting it unfiltered to the internet may feel therapeutic,
                          > but it's unlikely to end well."
                          > --Goedjn
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          *Szapolyai Zsigmund
                          Kingdom of Calontir

                          *


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Isabella D'Angelo
                          Just an additional but then there is this! http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg3/gg3-41630.html An older, poor gentleman walking his small dog using a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                            Just an additional "but then there is this!"

                            http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg3/gg3-41630.html

                            An older, poor gentleman walking his small dog using a rope. This is from about 1440.

                            -Isabella

                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "peryn7" <anicholls@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Once you start looking for dogs in period artwork they are everywhere, inside the house and out. And for all levels of society. Small dogs were the favorite pets of those who could afford them and wanted the companionship (usually ladies of means and religious officials of means). They are at the foot of many tomb effigies from the 1300s forward (possibly earlier?).
                            >
                            >
                          • Daniel Brizendine
                            The act of walking his dog does not cancel the fact that this very dog was probably some sort of ratter or pest control type dog as it appears to be a terrier
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The act of walking his dog does not cancel the fact that this very dog was
                              probably some sort of ratter or pest control type dog as it appears to be a
                              terrier type dog. Even those of us that have dogs that are in fact still
                              working type dogs either in the field protecting livestock, herding
                              livestock or hunting for us does not mean we don't love them or maybe even
                              if we have those type dogs and then walk them if we moved to the city.

                              Zsigmund

                              On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Isabella D'Angelo <
                              isabelladangelo@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Just an additional "but then there is this!"
                              >
                              > http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg3/gg3-41630.html
                              >
                              > An older, poor gentleman walking his small dog using a rope. This is from
                              > about 1440.
                              >
                              > -Isabella
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "peryn7" <anicholls@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Once you start looking for dogs in period artwork they are everywhere,
                              > inside the house and out. And for all levels of society. Small dogs were the
                              > favorite pets of those who could afford them and wanted the companionship
                              > (usually ladies of means and religious officials of means). They are at the
                              > foot of many tomb effigies from the 1300s forward (possibly earlier?).
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              *Szapolyai Zsigmund
                              Kingdom of Calontir

                              *


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • peryn7
                              Yes, I course my two IGs in the SCA. They course each other in play. I ve heard of a brace of 3 taking down jack rabbits. They are sighthounds, no mistaking
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                                Yes, I course my two IGs in the SCA. They course each other in play. I've heard of a brace of 3 taking down jack rabbits. They are sighthounds, no mistaking it.

                                I have lots of period artwork with small sighthounds as companions (as well as small spaniels and something small, white & fluffy). I'm just having problems finding hunting scenes (or descriptions) with small sighthounds (IG sized). I'm not saying they aren't out there, I'm just having problems finding them. If you know of any pre-1600, I would be very interested.

                                Peryn
                                Meridies

                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Brizendine <norseceltbear@...> wrote:
                                > If you
                                > have ever seen these sighthounds course or chase prey you would see that
                                > their hunt drive is very much still in tact.
                                >
                                > Zsigmund
                              • peryn7
                                Nice image :) The color/pattern reminds me of the italian spaniel-looking dogs in some hunting images. I think they were flushing waterfowl for a rider with a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                                  Nice image :) The color/pattern reminds me of the italian spaniel-looking dogs in some hunting images. I think they were flushing waterfowl for a rider with a raptor. But these dogs were a little bigger.

                                  Peryn
                                  Meridies


                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Isabella D'Angelo" <isabelladangelo@...> wrote:
                                  > Just an additional "but then there is this!"
                                  > http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg3/gg3-41630.html
                                  > An older, poor gentleman walking his small dog using a rope. This is from about 1440.
                                  > -Isabella
                                • Michael Hurley
                                  ... Or for that matter, simple protection. The subject is, after all, St. Anthony giving his money to the poor. Even today, how many homeless people adopt
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                                    On Jul 19, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Daniel Brizendine wrote:
                                    > The act of walking his dog does not cancel the fact that this very
                                    > dog was
                                    > probably some sort of ratter or pest control type dog as it appears
                                    > to be a
                                    > terrier type dog.

                                    Or for that matter, simple protection. The subject is, after all, St.
                                    Anthony giving his money to the poor. Even today, how many homeless
                                    people adopt stray dogs for protection, warmth, and even companionship?
                                    --
                                    Auf wiedersehen!
                                    Michael
                                    ______________________________________________________
                                    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                                    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                                    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                                    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                                    "..No."

                                    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                    -Real Genius
                                  • Trish
                                    I am just going to put my $.02 in. Just off hand I remember reading (Henry VIII: The King and His Court By Alison Weir) that Henry VIII put rewards out for
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                                      I am just going to put my $.02 in.
                                      Just off hand I remember reading (Henry VIII: The King and His Court By Alison Weir) that Henry VIII put rewards out for his dogs Cut & Ball being returned to him when they got loose. It mentioned velvet, silver-spiked collars.

                                      Anne Boleyn, had a small companion dog that she got from Sir Francis Bryan that she named Purkoy and died shortly before she did.

                                      Jane Seymour had a smalltoy poodle looking dog that was painted in a portrait with her and Henry VIII.

                                      Then there's Mary, Queen of Scots' Terrier that was her companion and "Then one of the executioners, pulling off her garters, espied her little dog which was crept under her cloths, which could not be gotten forth by force, yet afterward would not depart from the dead corpse, but came and lay between her head and her shoulders, which being imbrued with her blood was carried away and washed"
                                      I don't know if any of that helps...

                                      ~Trish
                                      http://www.trishstuff.com

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Quokkaqueen
                                      For earlier examples, there is a spiked collar from Valsgarde, Sweden: Anne-Sofie Gräslund, Dogs in graves – a question of symbolism? In Barbro Santillo
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 19, 2011
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                                        For earlier examples, there is a spiked collar from Valsgarde, Sweden:
                                        Anne-Sofie Gräslund, Dogs in graves – a question of symbolism?
                                        In Barbro Santillo Frizell [ed] Pecus: Man and Animal in Antiquity (The Swedish Institute in Rome. Projects and Seminars, 1), Rome 2004 ISSN 1824-7725
                                        http://www.isvroma.it/public/pecus/graslund.pdf

                                        And not a collar, but a leash for four dogs is from the Ladby boat burial. Which would point towards some sort of collar being worn in order for the leash to be attachable.
                                        http://www.johanneslarsenmuseet.dk/page.asp?objectid=2833&zcs=2200
                                        wider photo of the entire contraption:
                                        http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/sarahindenmark/denmark/1189800060/tpod.html#pbrowser/sarahindenmark/denmark/1189800060/filename=dsc02780.jpg

                                        The only other example I can think of is much earlier than the usual timeperiod of the SCA, but there is a decorated leather collar from Tutankhamun's tomb:
                                        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-04-12/decorated-leather-collar-for-a-dog-at-the/2617986

                                        Hope that's not entirely useless,

                                        Asfridhr
                                      • Marianne Perdomo
                                        Great stuff! The egyptian collar is gorgeous!! Not the original poster, but thanks! FWIW, I ve read that small dogs kept for company have existed at least
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                          Great stuff! The egyptian collar is gorgeous!!
                                          Not the original poster, but thanks!

                                          FWIW, I've read that small dogs kept for company have existed at least since
                                          Roman times. Pliny talks of the ladies' dogs that could ease stomach pains
                                          by being kept close to it. Studies of dogs from Romain Britain yielded
                                          heights between 23 and 72cm. Source: A Natural History of Domesticated
                                          Mammals, by Juliet Clutton-Brock, 2nd ed.

                                          However, I've read claims that the breed depicted in Egyptian pharaonic art
                                          were, variously, so called Pharaoh Hounds, Ibizan hounds (Podencos) or even
                                          "similar to greyhounds". But DNA analysis have disproved the claim at least
                                          for Pharaoh hounds. What I've read on the matter suggests that "types"
                                          (rather than breeds) have been bred repeatedly at different places
                                          throughout history. More often than not, there will be no genetic
                                          relationship between similar looking dogs.

                                          There's a group on Yahoo, SCA Hound Coursing, or somesuch where the matter
                                          of collars has been discussed previously. You may want to check the groups
                                          archives for old messages and photos. I also recreated one of the 3-pronged
                                          collars shown in some late period sources for my dog Eli, if anyone's
                                          interested.

                                          Cheers!


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Fred Zeiler
                                          Thanks! Do you have pictures? Frederick On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Marianne Perdomo
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                            Thanks! Do you have pictures?

                                            Frederick

                                            On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...
                                            > wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Great stuff! The egyptian collar is gorgeous!!
                                            > Not the original poster, but thanks!
                                            >
                                            > FWIW, I've read that small dogs kept for company have existed at least
                                            > since
                                            > Roman times. Pliny talks of the ladies' dogs that could ease stomach pains
                                            > by being kept close to it. Studies of dogs from Romain Britain yielded
                                            > heights between 23 and 72cm. Source: A Natural History of Domesticated
                                            > Mammals, by Juliet Clutton-Brock, 2nd ed.
                                            >
                                            > However, I've read claims that the breed depicted in Egyptian pharaonic art
                                            > were, variously, so called Pharaoh Hounds, Ibizan hounds (Podencos) or even
                                            > "similar to greyhounds". But DNA analysis have disproved the claim at least
                                            > for Pharaoh hounds. What I've read on the matter suggests that "types"
                                            > (rather than breeds) have been bred repeatedly at different places
                                            > throughout history. More often than not, there will be no genetic
                                            > relationship between similar looking dogs.
                                            >
                                            > There's a group on Yahoo, SCA Hound Coursing, or somesuch where the matter
                                            > of collars has been discussed previously. You may want to check the groups
                                            > archives for old messages and photos. I also recreated one of the 3-pronged
                                            > collars shown in some late period sources for my dog Eli, if anyone's
                                            > interested.
                                            >
                                            > Cheers!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            --
                                            Frederick



                                            You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think. unknown


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Michael Hurley
                                            ... But wouldn t that Pliny quote seem to imply they were kept for more than just companionship? In this case, medical reasons? I think what Zsigmund was
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                              On Jul 20, 2011, at 3:23 AM, Marianne Perdomo wrote:
                                              > FWIW, I've read that small dogs kept for company have existed at
                                              > least since
                                              > Roman times. Pliny talks of the ladies' dogs that could ease stomach
                                              > pains
                                              > by being kept close to it. Studies of dogs from Romain Britain yielded
                                              > heights between 23 and 72cm. Source: A Natural History of Domesticated
                                              > Mammals, by Juliet Clutton-Brock, 2nd ed.

                                              But wouldn't that Pliny quote seem to imply they were kept for more
                                              than just companionship? In this case, medical reasons? I think what
                                              Zsigmund was trying to say is that there seems to be almost no
                                              evidence for animals being kept solely for companionship reasons in
                                              our time-period. They always seem to have had utilitarian value as
                                              well. Hunting, herding, protection, sport, warmth, medicinal value,
                                              whatever. Not just "because we like them."

                                              Please note that I'm not trying to say the modern attitude about pets
                                              is somehow wrong, just that it's different from the medieval attitude
                                              as far as I can see.
                                              --
                                              Auf wiedersehen!
                                              Michael
                                              ______________________________________________________
                                              "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                                              "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                                              of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                                              women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                                              "..No."

                                              "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                              -Real Genius
                                            • Dianne Stucki
                                               They always seem to have had utilitarian value as well. Hunting, herding, protection, sport, warmth, medicinal value, whatever. Not just because we like
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                                 They always seem to have had utilitarian value as
                                                well. Hunting, herding, protection, sport, warmth, medicinal value,
                                                whatever. Not just "because we like them."

                                                Please note that I'm not trying to say the modern attitude about pets
                                                is somehow wrong, just that it's different from the medieval attitude
                                                as far as I can see.
                                                --
                                                Auf wiedersehen!
                                                Michael>>
                                                 
                                                OTOH--my Sheltie-spaniel mix may not strike fear into the heart of any burglar. But I KNOW she would let me know if anyone tried to get into my house without my knowledge or permission, and I have slept much better at night when my husband is away since we adopted her. And she does have a rather impressive "WOOF!" when someone comes to the door.
                                                 
                                                If I let you in, however, she might just lick you to death.
                                                 
                                                Laurensa

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Marianne Perdomo
                                                I just don t see such a sharp divide... keeping company is a job of sorts. Also I have my dog so I m forced to go on walks, and think I m not alone in this.
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                                  I just don't see such a sharp divide... keeping company is a job of sorts.
                                                  Also I have my dog so I'm forced to go on walks, and think I'm not alone in
                                                  this. Many people also like their dogs warning of any intruders, even if
                                                  it's the high-pitched yip of a tiny dog that will never scare away an
                                                  average human. Also... in medieval times people kept menageries of exotic
                                                  animals. Keeping leopards and what-have-you can't be so different from
                                                  keeping parrots or iguanas. You keep them because they appeal to you. Then
                                                  if they're also useful, so much the better.

                                                  I've rescued the quote so you can judge for yourselves. My impresssion is
                                                  that he's just adding a function to the dogs, kind of like drinkiing tea and
                                                  then finding out it's full of antioxidants or whatever...

                                                  "As touching the pretty little dogs that our dainty dames make so much of,
                                                  called Melitaet in Latin, if they be ever and anon kept close unto the
                                                  stomach, they ease the pain thereof."

                                                  As to the dog collar I need to find the photos... :/ or find the collar and
                                                  take new ones...

                                                  Cheers!


                                                  Leonor


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Trish
                                                  Like King Edward VI s dog who foiled Thomas Seymour s plans to kidnap him, and alerted the royal guards before Seymour killed it. ~Trish
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 20, 2011
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                                                    Like King Edward VI's dog who foiled Thomas Seymour's plans to kidnap him, and alerted the royal guards before Seymour killed it.

                                                    ~Trish
                                                    http://www.trishstuff.com
                                                    <snip>

                                                    OTOH--my Sheltie-spaniel mix may not strike fear into the heart of any burglar. But I KNOW she would let me know if anyone tried to get into my house without my knowledge or permission, and I have slept much better at night when my husband is away since we adopted her. And she does have a rather impressive "WOOF!" when someone comes to the door.
                                                    <snip>


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Honour Horne-Jaruk
                                                    ... Given the subject of the picture, and the stick/cane in the man s other hand, it more likely fits in another working category I missed: handicapped
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                                      Respected friends:


                                                      > Brizendine wrote:
                                                      > > The act of walking his dog does not cancel the fact
                                                      > that this very
                                                      > > dog was
                                                      > > probably some sort of ratter or pest control type dog
                                                      > as it appears
                                                      > > to be a
                                                      > > terrier type dog.
                                                      Given the subject of the picture, and the stick/cane in the man's other hand, it more likely fits in another working category I missed: handicapped assistance. In addition to leading the blind, which goes back at least to Rome, dogs have served such functions as warning of the onset of both seizures and chemically-mediated psychotic episodes. (I'm looking for one who can identify hypoglycemic attacks.) If a dog is large and strong enough, it can even learn to "dive" under a child who frequently falls while walking.
                                                      However, you're dismissing a category of "working" dog that certainly did exist in the middle ages: conspicuous consumption. Dogs bred, and kept, solely for their grace and beauty. Most lap-dogs fit into this category, too; they were as much an accessory as a pair of gloves or a lace-edged muckender. They didn't do any kind of practical work. Like dwarves and jesters, they existed for the amusement of those wealthy enough to afford them.

                                                      Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
                                                      (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
                                                      Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

                                                      "If you're a normal human, the inside of your head is not a pretty
                                                      place. Venting it unfiltered to the internet may feel therapeutic,
                                                      but it's unlikely to end well."
                                                      --Goedjn
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