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titles - arts & sciences officer/minister

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  • Tiffany Brown
    Someone on my local list asked if there were better titles for our Arts & Sciences officer (called Arts & sciecnes minister in other parts I beleive). I think
    Message 1 of 6 , May 2, 2011
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      Someone on my local list asked if there were better titles for our
      Arts & Sciences officer (called Arts & sciecnes minister in other
      parts I beleive). I think they were more worried about the feel of
      the word - the fantasy setting rather than the history, but I wondered
      what are the closest roles to this role that we know of historically?

      I doubt anything will happen from this, but I'm interested in the
      general question - what are actual medeival or renaisance job titles
      (and a description and rough time and place to go with it) that bear
      some links to the sorts of things we do in the sca? In reality I
      suspect my view is we may be better off not trying to squeeze modern
      jobs (like A&S officer) into medieval titles badly, but there might
      just be some jobs where we really are doing basically the same job.

      any suggestions?

      Teffania
      (from Lochac - just in case anyone is assuming local knowledge that
      doesn't span oceans)

      --
      . ___
       {o,o}           The blog you are not looking for
       |)__)                   is definitely not at
       -"-"-                   http://teffania.blogspot.com
    • Jeff
      Hi there, If you re looking for some sort of governmental official who supervised the arts and sciences, I don t think there is one. I tend to think of them
      Message 2 of 6 , May 3, 2011
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        Hi there,

        If you're looking for some sort of governmental official who supervised the arts and sciences, I don't think there is one. I tend to think of them as guilds in a medieval context, and the guilds were generally free of supervision from government. I read earlier that in Italy there was a sort of "superguild" in some cities that coordinaed between the guilds, but even that wasn't governmental. I would say the closest think you could find would be a mayor/burgomaster.

        On the other hand, you could certainly call someone a "Guild Master" -- I'm not aware that such a title existed, but at least it sounds medieval.

        Barcsi Janos
        (who remembers Masters/Mistresses of Arts/Sciences then Ministers of Arts and Sciences, then Arts and Sciences Officers.
      • Amy Heilveil
        ... cities that coordinaed between the guilds, but even that wasn t ... mayor/burgomaster. I disagree with the idea of mayor/burgormaster because it implies
        Message 3 of 6 , May 3, 2011
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          >I read earlier that in Italy there was a sort of "superguild" in some
          cities that coordinaed between the guilds, but even that wasn't
          >governmental. I would say the closest think you could find would be a
          mayor/burgomaster.


          I disagree with the idea of mayor/burgormaster because it implies
          governmental power over an entire population, not just a subset of the
          population, which is what the A&S covers. It also carries an implication of
          far more power than an A&S minister has (at any level).


          > On the other hand, you could certainly call someone a "Guild Master" -- I'm
          > not aware that such a title existed, but at least it sounds medieval.
          >
          >
          While the term "guild master" does exist and is proper for SCA period in
          many geographic areas, it is not appropriate for someone who overlooks the
          entirety of A&S for a group of any size. A guild master is in charge of a
          single guild (dyers, weavers, bakers, etc.) rather than all of the guilds.

          I say just stick with what we have.

          Despina de la not good with suggestions right now, sorry


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • J. C. Smith ispán
          I agree with your comments entirely and admit that I was (as I hope I expressed) grasping at straws. Barcsi Janos   JEFFREY C. SMITH   The principle of
          Message 4 of 6 , May 3, 2011
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            I agree with your comments entirely and admit that I was (as I hope I expressed)
            grasping at straws.

            Barcsi Janos
             
            JEFFREY C. SMITH
             
            "The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of
            funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson
          • CLEY
            You might consider the term Steward of.... Arlys
            Message 5 of 6 , May 3, 2011
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              You might consider the term "Steward of...."

              Arlys
            • citikas
              ... Let me give you a bit of background first before answering your question. Mind you, I am generalising somewhat for brevity s sake. The guild structure in
              Message 6 of 6 , May 7, 2011
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Tiffany Brown <teffania@...> wrote:
                >
                > Someone on my local list asked if there were better titles for our
                > Arts & Sciences officer (called Arts & sciecnes minister in other
                > parts I beleive). I think they were more worried about the feel of
                > the word - the fantasy setting rather than the history, but I wondered
                > what are the closest roles to this role that we know of historically?

                Let me give you a bit of background first before answering your question. Mind you, I am generalising somewhat for brevity's sake.

                The guild structure in medieval Tallinn was a complex due to the segregation of Germans and non-Germans, merchants, craftspeople, and between the upper town (Domberg) and lower town (Reval).

                First of all, Tallinn was divided into two areas:

                Domberg, where the fogt (representative of the royal power, enforcing the royal law), nobility and their servants lived, with the craftspeople supporting them in their own Dom-Gilde;

                Reval, where the Hansa merchants, craftspeople and locals lived, ruled by a Bürgermeister (mayor) and Rat (council) according to Lübeck law.

                Each area was surrounded by its own walls, separating Domberg and Reval into two different towns not only legally but also physically. In Reval each trade had it's own zunft (guild) that belonged to one of the following gilde (union) according to the segregation rules.

                - Große Gilde. A union of the married bulk merchants. The council members and the mayor were elected only from the members of this guild. Also, some very high status members of the clergy, and some Hansa trade ship captains could belong to this guild.

                - Tafelgilde. A guild for charitable work. Only members of Große Gilde could become members of this guild. Since the memberships are nearly identical, these two guilds are largely considered one guild.

                - Schwarzhäupter. A union of unmarried bulk merchants. When a member married and/or became a citizen, he could apply for membership in the Große Gilde.

                - Kanutus-Gilde or Kanuti-Gilde. Union of German craftspeople. This was a union of prestigious trade guilds, like goldsmiths, bakers, tailors, shoemakers, blacksmiths, etc. Also, retail merchants belonged here after being thrown out of Große Gilde in 1423.

                - Olevi-Gilde. Union of non-German craftspeople. This was a union of non-prestigious trade guilds like carters, stonemasons, carpenters, butchers, hemp-spinners and rope-makers, tanners, etc.

                Each gilde was led by an olderman, elected by the members for three years. Each olderman also had two aides, called bisitter, who assisted the olderman for two years. Gerdelude and schaffere took care of the day-to-day administrative tasks in addition to organising the two annual feasts (one per position). Vormunder was responsible for the guild hall and the financial issues.

                Of the above positions, the olderman best matches the A&S minister duties and is also probably the easiest to transplant to SCA's English speaking culture.


                Take care,

                Anneke Lyffland
                -~*~-
                And taste it, however it seems good to you, make it so. Sabina Welserin anno 1553
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