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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Summer Garb: Middle Eastern

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  • Sayyeda Samia al-Kaslaania
    ... Hello Zahra, I m catching up on email. Do you have a website that discusses these garments? And can you tell me what region they are from? I know the names
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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      On 7/7/2010 10:02 AM, Zhara wrote:
      > I wear mostly the same thing I wear the rest of the year, I just leave off the thobes and abbayah.
      >
      > Linen or cotton yeleks, cotton dishdasha with linen or cotton serwal and churridurs, sheer cotton dupattas, cotton dulban. Then there is the rare and occasional cotton sari, for when I don't want to wear European.

      Hello Zahra,

      I'm catching up on email. Do you have a website that discusses these
      garments? And can you tell me what region they are from? I know the
      names change for garments across the Middle East and Mediterranean. :)

      Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
    • asackville@juno.com
      Summer garb? I m an Elizabethan. There s no such thing. Velvets and silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate. Middle Eastern, when I used to
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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        Summer garb? I'm an Elizabethan. There's no such thing. Velvets and silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate.

        Middle Eastern, when I used to indulge with an alternate persona, froze to death in the winter and was only mildly comfortable in the summer in Persian garb. Got too fat and no longer fit into that garb.

        Use natural fibers so you don't die of heat.

        Fionnuala

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      • Zhara
        Indeed the names change for these garments in different places, and I have no doubt added to the confusion by putting the garb of several parts of Europe
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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          Indeed the names change for these garments in different places, and I have no doubt added to the confusion by putting the garb of several parts of Europe together into one paragraph with no separation. I meant to speak of two areas, southwestern Europe (the area today called "Spain" and "Portugal") and the part of central/eastern Europe that is today called "Turkey". The sari I was referring as the non-European clothing that I occasionally wear is from the Indian subcontinent.

          One site with some great stuff:Clothing in al-Maghrib (the Muslim West)in the Medieval and Renaissance Periods http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/MaghribiCostume.html

          I'm also a huge fan of both the Topkapi museum pics that appear on some sites (does require a bit of google-foo to get them), and the Alphonso Chess manual, in particular Chess problem #56, showing a lady wearing dulban (turban),dishdasha (a type of simple gown that has many names) and churridur (a particular type of trouser with distinctive narrowing and bunching of fabric on the lower legs appearing as irregular pleats or even seeming as leg wraps in the eyes of some viewers) and large sheer scarf.

          Find this lady from the Alphoso Chess Manual in her cool and comfy glory here: http://historicgames.com/alphonso/tcintro.html

          About that large sheer scarf: I used the word dupatta, although I should have remembered that dupatta is the Hindi word for it, my bad. Perhaps "chador" is the better term to use, but I will defer to the linguists in the group on that one.


          Please also note that the fuller cut of trousers can appear as: sirwal, sherwal, sirwal, salwar, etc etc etc other spelling variations exist for several of the garments (dulban, tulbent, etc).

          Cheers,
          Z.
        • lilinah@earthlink.net
          ... (sympathetic grin) I was an actor at Ren Faires for a number of years, as merchant class, then as nobility, and it could be over 100oF. ... One shouldn t
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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            Fionnuala wrote:
            >Summer garb? I'm an Elizabethan. There's no such thing. Velvets and
            >silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate.

            (sympathetic grin) I was an actor at Ren Faires for a number of
            years, as merchant class, then as nobility, and it could be over
            100oF.

            >Middle Eastern, when I used to indulge with an alternate persona,
            >froze to death in the winter and was only mildly comfortable in the
            >summer in Persian garb. Got too fat and no longer fit into that garb.

            One shouldn't be freezing in winter in proper Persian clothing.
            Medieval Persians didn't want to be cold any more than we do, and
            winters can be quite cold in Persia. One just needs appropriate
            layers made of appropriate fabrics. For winter, they layered on qaba
            make of wool and often wore fur lined qaba, as well.

            >Use natural fibers so you don't die of heat.

            I agree, and they generally keep one warmer in winter, if one picks
            the right fibers.

            My personal experience is here in The West Kingdom, where most events
            are weekend long camping. It is usually in the 40s at night, spring,
            summer, and fall (and it can be in the high 20s at night at the week
            long Estrella War in Arizona in February). During the day in The West
            it can be in the 50s (even in the summer) to the 110s, depending on
            time of year and event location.

            My 14th c. Egyptian tunic is linen, and my underlayers (kamis and
            sirwal) are also linen. Early on, i had tunics and sirwal made of a
            cotton/linen blend, and also of cotton because cotton is historically
            accurate for tunics in the Mamluk period. I have found that linen is
            much cooler in heat and warmer in cold than cotton, and handles
            humidity better than cotton, too. Real linen holds up well to machine
            washing and various websites offer it at reasonable prices.

            My Persian pirihan is sheer cotton, based on a couple surviving
            examples. My outer kaba is dupioni silk lined with dupioni silk. My
            inner qaba are often of cotton with appropriate prints lined with
            china silk = habotai. They have kept me warm at events at night, and
            i am sensitive to cold. I only wear heavy jacquard woven fabrics as
            the loose upper layer and often skip that. Even though people then to
            call jacquard ''brocade'', it is VERY far from real brocade. Real
            brocade would be bearable because, except for the motifs, it is only
            plain weave or twill weave and often quite thin. Little *real*
            brocade is still woven today, tends to cost around US $1000 per
            meter, and is about 36'' wide.

            Let me add that different silks in different weaves behave
            differently in heat, and i have found that with the addition
            humidity, most silks can be *very* uncomfortable, even with cotton
            ''underwear''.

            Frankly, i have often been puzzled by the assumption in the SCA that
            Middle Eastern clothing is necessarily cooler than European. In much
            of North Africa and the Middle East, people wear outer garments made
            of wool, even in hot paces. And traditional clothing quite fully
            covers males and females, leaving only hands and feet exposed, and -
            depending on location, traditions, and gender - neck and face. The
            heads of both males and females would also be covered. This makes
            sense as this protects the wearer from sunburn and dehydration.

            In modern times, however, men and women in the Middle East often wear
            polyester and other synthetics, and women's abaya (where they are
            worn) are often black and synthetic, guaranteed to be miserably hot
            and suffocating in summer and insufficiently warm in winter.

            Yet even with this professed desire to wear Middle Eastern clothing,
            i see SCAdians wearing all sorts of modern and fantasy garb, such as
            the so-called Ghawazee coat with slits up to there! and a wide and
            deep upper front window of opportunity, a garment that existed no
            earlier than the 1970s (yes, late 20th c.), along with giant poofy
            pants which are also not SCA period.

            Frankly, early medieval European tunics are just as comfortable as
            Middle Eastern and North African tunics and made of the same
            materials: linen and wool. So i'm not sure why SCAdians who want
            cooler clothing don't shift from later SCA-period European to earlier
            European in the summer. I suspect that SCAdians go for ME in the
            summer because of: a desire for a change from one's usual garb; a
            desire for the ''exotic''; and cultural misunderstandings, such as
            looking at and liking 19th c. European Orientalist art, much of which
            did not represent reality, but was intentionally erotic, and was
            stimulated by or stimulated sex tours by white male Europeans to the
            Middle East.
            --
            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
            the persona formerly known as Anahita

            Dar Anahita
            http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
            info on Near & Middle Eastern garb, medieval Egyptian knitting, and
            period feasts and recipes
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            ... There are significant differences between sirwal and shalvar (not specifying one spelling, just using one for simplicity). Shalvar was originally Persian.
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 20, 2010
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              Zhara wrote:
              >Please also note that the fuller cut of trousers can appear as:
              >sirwal, sherwal, sirwal, salwar, etc etc etc

              There are significant differences between sirwal and shalvar (not
              specifying one spelling, just using one for simplicity).

              Shalvar was originally Persian. The Arabs adopted them, adopted the
              name, then adapted them, changing the name. In standard Arabic one is
              sirwal, more than one is sarawil. Variations in spelling are partly
              due to pronunciation differences around the Arabic speaking world.

              Sirwal has legs that go straight down, sort of like modern pajamas
              (and that word comes from India).

              Shalvar, worn in the Persian and Ottoman Empires and parts of Central
              Asia, has legs that are wide at the top and narrow as they go down
              the leg, often snug at the ankles.

              Both use gussets in the crotch (and sometimes the inner legs, too)
              for ease of movement, although shaped and inserted differently, and
              drawstring waists.

              >other spelling variations exist for several of the garments (dulban,
              >tulbent, etc).

              And don't forget turban...
              --
              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • gianottadallafiora
              For me, it depends on the humidity. We ve been having an extremely hot and humid summer here in the East Kingdom, and I have found that a loose Abbasid-style
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 20, 2010
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                For me, it depends on the humidity. We've been having an extremely hot and humid summer here in the East Kingdom, and I have found that a loose Abbasid-style or Norman tunic and trousers, even in 100% linen, are dandy in wicking the sweat but the humidity prevents the sweat from evaporating from the material. Thus I don't get the cooling effect that I would in a climate that is much drier. Hot, wet cloth=grumpy me.

                When I went to East Kingdom War Camp this past Saturday, the temperature was in the 90s, and humidity climbed up there too, so I opted for a short choli with shisha embroidery and a long cotton circle skirt, embroidered here and there with shisha mirrors. I also had a piece of white silk chiffon for veiling. Overall, I was striving for a Mughal look and it's made me seriously look into constructing a Mughal-style Indian outfit, because when a breeze did blow across my sweaty back and midsection, it felt OMG AMAZING. And short cholis with skirts are period for that time and place.

                I do realize that most people like to go a lot more covered up (I've lost a lot of weight over the past year and this choli fit me again). But there are limits, even for me. While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P

                http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/

                I do rather like the outfit the serving girl on the dais is wearing, the green and gold one, although I'd still probably sweat to death in it.

                Adelisa de Salernum

                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica M" <jessicam11402@...> wrote:
                >
                > So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite summer garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
                >
                > -Galiena (who wore wool last week to an event, must find something cooler to make...)
                >
              • George A. Trosper
                ... I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering. --George/Gerard
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 21, 2010
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                  gianottadallafiora wrote:
                  > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                  >
                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                  >
                  > Adelisa de Salernum
                  I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                  obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.

                  --George/Gerard
                • Katherine Throckmorton
                  It isn t as clear in this illustration, but in similar ones its fairly obvious that the dancers are wearing cholis under their sheer coats, which is less
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 21, 2010
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                    It isn't as clear in this illustration, but in similar ones its fairly
                    obvious that the dancers are wearing cholis under their sheer coats, which
                    is less scandalous. I've also seen illustrations of women wearing fishtail
                    saris with a choli and dupatta, which are quite comfortable in the summer.


                    Katherine/Asma


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Madame du Pont
                    ... Bonjour, The guy on the lower right is definitely leering. And don t be fooled by musicians, they love to play for the dancers and they have learned to
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 22, 2010
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > gianottadallafiora wrote:
                      > > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                      > >
                      > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                      > >
                      > > Adelisa de Salernum
                      > I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                      > obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.
                      >
                      > --George/Gerard

                      Bonjour,

                      The guy on the lower right is definitely leering. And don't be fooled by musicians, they love to play for the dancers and they have learned to 'look' without drooling. And I just learned that after a lot of drumming it is a nice gesture for the dancers to massage the drummers hands.

                      Nice pictue...

                      Adieu,
                      Madame du Pont
                      Shire de Tymberhavene
                      Kingdom d'An Tir
                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                      ... Are you joking or are you being serious? -- Urtatim [that s err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 22, 2010
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                        After gianottadallafiora wrote:
                        > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the
                        >dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th
                        >century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                        >
                        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                        >
                        > Adelisa de Salernum

                        George/Gerard replied:
                        >I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                        >obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.

                        Are you joking or are you being serious?

                        --
                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Zhara
                        Dude in the burnt sienna/brown is definitely leering. If pressed, I d say the drummers are as well. ... Question: does anyone know of any particular
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                          Dude in the burnt sienna/brown is definitely leering. If pressed, I'd say the drummers are as well.

                          > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/

                          Question: does anyone know of any particular significance to the way leering-guy is wearing his stole/scarf? There is some evidence of symbolism in the way clothing is worn in period illustrations (loosened/disheveled turbans are a sign of mourning, floppy sleeves a sign of reckless abandon, etc...)

                          Is a wearing one's scarf in a twisty-wrap a sign of lust?

                          Just Curious,
                          Z.
                        • George A. Trosper
                          ... I was serious. But from your response and Madame du Pont s, I was seriously *mistaken* about the amount of leering going on. I can t even be 100% certain
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                            lilinah@... wrote:
                            > Are you joking or are you being serious?
                            I was serious. But from your response and Madame du Pont's, I was
                            seriously *mistaken* about the amount of leering going on. I can't even
                            be 100% certain which guy at the lower right she's talking about. AH,
                            well. I knew I wasn't good at this, but didn't realize I was pitiful!

                            --George/Gerard
                          • Sayyeda Samia al-Kaslaania
                            ... Sayyeda Zahra, The way it s worn is reminiscent of the way some wraps are worn in the Maqamat al-Hariri, and further described by Yedida Stillman in her
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                              On 7/23/2010 10:25 AM, Zhara wrote:
                              > Question: does anyone know of any particular significance to the way leering-guy is wearing his stole/scarf? There is some evidence of symbolism in the way clothing is worn in period illustrations (loosened/disheveled turbans are a sign of mourning, floppy sleeves a sign of reckless abandon, etc...)
                              >
                              > Is a wearing one's scarf in a twisty-wrap a sign of lust?
                              >
                              > Just Curious,
                              > Z.

                              Sayyeda Zahra,

                              The way it's worn is reminiscent of the way some wraps are worn in the
                              Maqamat al-Hariri, and further described by Yedida Stillman in her
                              dissertation. I wonder if it's a kind of vestigial garment?

                              Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                            • gianottadallafiora
                              Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 29, 2010
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                                Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a dancer in a tiny, tiny top; almost non-existent cups and very thin straps around the body and shoulders. You could see the musician directly behind her had this look on his face like "Please, please G-d, may that bra strap break!" which intensified every time she bent forward. It was hilarious.

                                Adelisa de Salernum
                              • George A. Trosper
                                ... Research has shown (I remember reading) that what str8 guys most appreciate in minimal women s wear is not exactly how minimal it is, but how likely full
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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                                  gianottadallafiora wrote:
                                  > Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a dancer in a tiny, tiny top; almost non-existent cups and very thin straps around the body and shoulders. You could see the musician directly behind her had this look on his face like "Please, please G-d, may that bra strap break!" which intensified every time she bent forward. It was hilarious.
                                  >
                                  > Adelisa de Salernum
                                  Research has shown (I remember reading) that what str8 guys most
                                  appreciate in minimal women's wear is not exactly how minimal it is, but
                                  how likely full disclosure appears.
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