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Re: [Authentic_SCA] dealing with fugitive dyes and dye-setting

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  • kittencat3@aol.com
    Commercial dyes were pre-mordanted with alum or (sometimes) iron. Substantive dyes like turmeric, saffron, and indigo weren t mordanted at all, as far as I
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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      Commercial dyes were pre-mordanted with alum or (sometimes) iron.
      Substantive dyes like turmeric, saffron, and indigo weren't mordanted at all, as
      far as I know....

      sarah Davies


      In a message dated 7/13/2010 10:28:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      cley56@... writes:




      Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
      fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive dyes?

      Arlys





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Quokkaqueen
      I second what Folo says -- the SCA period was a huge range of places and times, and it s likely that techniques varied. The effectiveness of dye fixatives also
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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        I second what Folo says -- the SCA period was a huge range of places and times, and it's likely that techniques varied. The effectiveness of dye fixatives also varies somewhat according to the dyes used, and the fibre you're dying even before you get to the problem of dye permanence. (Eg. It's generally difficult to brightly dye linens, but it's easier to dye silks and wools.)

        With that said, the word you probably want to look out for is "mordant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordant), since it might give you better results when searching the internet.

        ~Asfridhr
      • Amy Heilveil
        Arlys, A book called The Plitho of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started. As others have said,
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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          Arlys,

          A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
          edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started. As others have said,
          there are a lot of different things to use as mordants and what you would
          have used would depend on the dye, the fabric to be dyed, your time period,
          and your geographic placement. You should be able to find a copy of the
          "Plitho" fairly simply. My copy is a photocopy of the MIT version produced
          in 1969. If you have a specific color that you are looking to mordant,
          please let us know and I'm sure several people will give you possible
          solutions or look things up in books we have.

          Smiles,
          Despina de la likes giving book names as references for people to go
          find....


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Folo Watkins
          Again dealing with a more specific time and place than the SCA, but possibly of interest, I remembered a site that had the results of the Regia dye project,
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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            Again dealing with a more specific time and place than the SCA, but
            possibly of interest, I remembered a site that had the results of the
            Regia dye project, that includes the mordants used:
            http://regia.org/members/dyeproject.html

            Cheers, Folo
            www.micelfolcland.org
          • Diane Sawyer Dooley
            I think that s spelled Plictho . Tasha
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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              I think that's spelled "Plictho".

              Tasha

              >
              >From: Amy Heilveil <amyheilveil@...>
              >To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010 8:17:54 PM
              >Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] dealing with fugitive dyes and dye-setting
              >
              >
              >Arlys,
              >
              >A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
              >edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started.
            • Amy Heilveil
              Thanks Tasha, I kept looking at it and was unable to see what was wrong. I greatly appreciate your correction on the spelling. I am purposely leaving the two
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 13, 2010
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                Thanks Tasha,
                I kept looking at it and was unable to see what was wrong. I greatly
                appreciate your correction on the spelling. I am purposely leaving the two
                other emails attached so that the meaning and proper spelling can be
                attached to the proper post.

                Smiles,
                Despina de la long day

                On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Diane Sawyer Dooley <
                tasha_medvedeva@...> wrote:

                > I think that's spelled "Plictho".
                >
                > Tasha
                >
                > >
                > >A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
                > >edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started.
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kathy Keeler
                Proper mordanting and after-dyeing treatments were certainly used, but medieval dyes still almost all faded more than we are accustomed to. I imagine they
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 14, 2010
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                  Proper mordanting and after-dyeing treatments were certainly used, but
                  medieval dyes still almost all faded more than we are accustomed to.
                  I imagine they didn't think much about it, as we accept the fading of
                  blue jeans.

                  "Refreshing"--redyeing-- the cloth was common.

                  And they treated their textiles much more gently than we treat ours.
                  Clothing was washed sparingly and carefully stored.
                  Mistress Flavia's dye samples are still bright after more than a
                  decade, but I've kept them on the bookshelf--they hang out in front of
                  the booklet--and not washed them. I have a box of wools I dyed that
                  seem quite bright after 2 to many years, but again, they're washed
                  infrequently and gently and kept out of the sun.

                  People with expensive dyed clothes probably did not wear them outside
                  in full sunlight, or if so, considered which colors to expose to the
                  sun. Or could afford to throw them away.

                  Late Period or post-Period dyers' handbooks may reveal some methods of
                  setting colors, but a lot of dye technology was of great commercial
                  value and so kept secret by the guilds.

                  As others said, different times and places had different methods,
                  resources and fibers.

                  Agnes
                  Unser Hafen, Outlands

                  references I can lay my hands on quickly:
                  section on caring for clothes and furs in Le Mesnagier de Paris
                  (1393), Tania Bayard's edition & translation
                  Mistress Flavia's dye booklets (Natural Dye Basics, and, A friendly
                  guide to Period Dyes and Fibers)


                  On Jul 13, 2010, at 8:13 AM, CLEY wrote:

                  > Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
                  > fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive
                  > dyes?
                  >
                  > Arlys
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Folo Watkins
                  I received a note from Gale Owes-C rocker today saying that the upcoming paperback edition of _Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_ is no different from the hardcover
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 14, 2010
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                    I received a note from Gale Owes-C rocker today saying that the
                    upcoming paperback edition of _Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_ is no
                    different from the hardcover second edition (which is becoming
                    available at a reduced price from many dealers because the paperback
                    is imminent). Then she added:

                    >We are producing an
                    >Encyclopaedia of Medieval Dress and Taxtiles of the British Isles c
                    >450-1450 which will come out as a book and electronic edition,
                    >published by BRill, scheduled for 2011.

                    Hazel Uzzell--the long-suffering wife of the smell-impaired Ian, whom
                    I mentioned earlier--noted this when I mentioned it on another list:

                    I> have written a paper on dyeing during the period for this
                    publication. It has just gone through its last peer and editorial revue.
                    >There is a separate paper on woad, which I reviewed.
                    >I'm looking forward to the publication next year....but I think it
                    is going to be a bit pricey!

                    A bit in the future to help right now, but something that some of you
                    might want to look out for!

                    Cheers, Folo
                    www.micelfolcland.org
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