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dealing with fugitive dyes and dye-setting

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  • CLEY
    Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive dyes? Arlys
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 13 7:13 AM
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      Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
      fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive dyes?

      Arlys
    • Folo Watkins
      ... Which period do you refer to? In the one I recreate--roughly Britain and Scandinavia around 1000 CE--stale urine was sometimes used. A pal from Regia in
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 13 7:45 AM
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        >Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
        >fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive dyes?

        Which period do you refer to? In the one I recreate--roughly Britain
        and Scandinavia around 1000 CE--stale urine was sometimes used. A pal
        from Regia in the UK, Ian Uzzell, keeps several pots of stale urine
        "simmering" in his back yard for use in dyeing. Of course, Ian cannot
        smell (a fumbled operation to stop his snoring); his wife does not
        have the same disability :)

        Cheers, Folo
        www.micelfolcland.org
      • kittencat3@aol.com
        Commercial dyes were pre-mordanted with alum or (sometimes) iron. Substantive dyes like turmeric, saffron, and indigo weren t mordanted at all, as far as I
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 13 4:40 PM
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          Commercial dyes were pre-mordanted with alum or (sometimes) iron.
          Substantive dyes like turmeric, saffron, and indigo weren't mordanted at all, as
          far as I know....

          sarah Davies


          In a message dated 7/13/2010 10:28:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          cley56@... writes:




          Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
          fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive dyes?

          Arlys





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Quokkaqueen
          I second what Folo says -- the SCA period was a huge range of places and times, and it s likely that techniques varied. The effectiveness of dye fixatives also
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 13 4:46 PM
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            I second what Folo says -- the SCA period was a huge range of places and times, and it's likely that techniques varied. The effectiveness of dye fixatives also varies somewhat according to the dyes used, and the fibre you're dying even before you get to the problem of dye permanence. (Eg. It's generally difficult to brightly dye linens, but it's easier to dye silks and wools.)

            With that said, the word you probably want to look out for is "mordant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordant), since it might give you better results when searching the internet.

            ~Asfridhr
          • Amy Heilveil
            Arlys, A book called The Plitho of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started. As others have said,
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 13 5:17 PM
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              Arlys,

              A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
              edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started. As others have said,
              there are a lot of different things to use as mordants and what you would
              have used would depend on the dye, the fabric to be dyed, your time period,
              and your geographic placement. You should be able to find a copy of the
              "Plitho" fairly simply. My copy is a photocopy of the MIT version produced
              in 1969. If you have a specific color that you are looking to mordant,
              please let us know and I'm sure several people will give you possible
              solutions or look things up in books we have.

              Smiles,
              Despina de la likes giving book names as references for people to go
              find....


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Folo Watkins
              Again dealing with a more specific time and place than the SCA, but possibly of interest, I remembered a site that had the results of the Regia dye project,
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 13 5:21 PM
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                Again dealing with a more specific time and place than the SCA, but
                possibly of interest, I remembered a site that had the results of the
                Regia dye project, that includes the mordants used:
                http://regia.org/members/dyeproject.html

                Cheers, Folo
                www.micelfolcland.org
              • Diane Sawyer Dooley
                I think that s spelled Plictho . Tasha
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 13 5:33 PM
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                  I think that's spelled "Plictho".

                  Tasha

                  >
                  >From: Amy Heilveil <amyheilveil@...>
                  >To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010 8:17:54 PM
                  >Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] dealing with fugitive dyes and dye-setting
                  >
                  >
                  >Arlys,
                  >
                  >A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
                  >edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started.
                • Amy Heilveil
                  Thanks Tasha, I kept looking at it and was unable to see what was wrong. I greatly appreciate your correction on the spelling. I am purposely leaving the two
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 13 6:50 PM
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                    Thanks Tasha,
                    I kept looking at it and was unable to see what was wrong. I greatly
                    appreciate your correction on the spelling. I am purposely leaving the two
                    other emails attached so that the meaning and proper spelling can be
                    attached to the proper post.

                    Smiles,
                    Despina de la long day

                    On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Diane Sawyer Dooley <
                    tasha_medvedeva@...> wrote:

                    > I think that's spelled "Plictho".
                    >
                    > Tasha
                    >
                    > >
                    > >A book called "The Plitho" of Gioanventura Rosetti, which exists in first
                    > >edition from 1548 is a good book to get you started.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kathy Keeler
                    Proper mordanting and after-dyeing treatments were certainly used, but medieval dyes still almost all faded more than we are accustomed to. I imagine they
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 14 7:02 PM
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                      Proper mordanting and after-dyeing treatments were certainly used, but
                      medieval dyes still almost all faded more than we are accustomed to.
                      I imagine they didn't think much about it, as we accept the fading of
                      blue jeans.

                      "Refreshing"--redyeing-- the cloth was common.

                      And they treated their textiles much more gently than we treat ours.
                      Clothing was washed sparingly and carefully stored.
                      Mistress Flavia's dye samples are still bright after more than a
                      decade, but I've kept them on the bookshelf--they hang out in front of
                      the booklet--and not washed them. I have a box of wools I dyed that
                      seem quite bright after 2 to many years, but again, they're washed
                      infrequently and gently and kept out of the sun.

                      People with expensive dyed clothes probably did not wear them outside
                      in full sunlight, or if so, considered which colors to expose to the
                      sun. Or could afford to throw them away.

                      Late Period or post-Period dyers' handbooks may reveal some methods of
                      setting colors, but a lot of dye technology was of great commercial
                      value and so kept secret by the guilds.

                      As others said, different times and places had different methods,
                      resources and fibers.

                      Agnes
                      Unser Hafen, Outlands

                      references I can lay my hands on quickly:
                      section on caring for clothes and furs in Le Mesnagier de Paris
                      (1393), Tania Bayard's edition & translation
                      Mistress Flavia's dye booklets (Natural Dye Basics, and, A friendly
                      guide to Period Dyes and Fibers)


                      On Jul 13, 2010, at 8:13 AM, CLEY wrote:

                      > Just curious: were there period methods of setting dyes to minimize
                      > fading, and/or ways to retain color on what were otherwise fugitive
                      > dyes?
                      >
                      > Arlys
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Folo Watkins
                      I received a note from Gale Owes-C rocker today saying that the upcoming paperback edition of _Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_ is no different from the hardcover
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 14 7:12 PM
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                        I received a note from Gale Owes-C rocker today saying that the
                        upcoming paperback edition of _Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_ is no
                        different from the hardcover second edition (which is becoming
                        available at a reduced price from many dealers because the paperback
                        is imminent). Then she added:

                        >We are producing an
                        >Encyclopaedia of Medieval Dress and Taxtiles of the British Isles c
                        >450-1450 which will come out as a book and electronic edition,
                        >published by BRill, scheduled for 2011.

                        Hazel Uzzell--the long-suffering wife of the smell-impaired Ian, whom
                        I mentioned earlier--noted this when I mentioned it on another list:

                        I> have written a paper on dyeing during the period for this
                        publication. It has just gone through its last peer and editorial revue.
                        >There is a separate paper on woad, which I reviewed.
                        >I'm looking forward to the publication next year....but I think it
                        is going to be a bit pricey!

                        A bit in the future to help right now, but something that some of you
                        might want to look out for!

                        Cheers, Folo
                        www.micelfolcland.org
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