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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Summer Garb

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  • Diane Sawyer Dooley
    Same thing I wear all the time: Viking. I just leave off the wool gown and wear a linen apron dress. Tasha ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 6, 2010
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      Same thing I wear all the time: Viking. I just leave off the wool gown and wear
      a linen apron dress.

      Tasha



      >
      >From: Jessica M <jessicam11402@...>
      >To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 8:26:31 PM
      >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Summer Garb
      >
      >
      >So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite summer
      >garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
      >
      >-Galiena (who wore wool last week to an event, must find something cooler to
      >make...)
      >
      >
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • CLEY
      ... I do English 14th century--sideless surcoats are wonderful. Arlys Lower An Tir
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 6, 2010
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        Jessica M wrote:
        >
        > So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite
        > summer garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
        >
        > -Galiena (who wore wool last week to an event, must find something
        > cooler to make...)
        >
        I do English 14th century--sideless surcoats are wonderful.

        Arlys
        Lower An Tir


        >
        >
      • Antonia Calvo
        ... I wear the same Italian gowns I wear at other times of the year, only with no overgown or coat. I wear a partlet/coverciere to keep the sun off my
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 6, 2010
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          Jessica M wrote:
          > So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite summer garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
          >
          >

          I wear the same Italian gowns I wear at other times of the year, only
          with no overgown or coat. I wear a partlet/coverciere to keep the sun
          off my decolletage, and I favour styles with tied-on sleeves as having
          my armpits covered only by linen is good for moderating temperature. My
          gowns are of light-medium weight woollen lined in coarse linen, and I
          wear only linen undergarments, including linen drawers.



          --
          Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

          -----------------------------
          Habeo metrum - musicamque,
          hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
          -Georgeus Gershwinus
          -----------------------------
        • Zhara
          I wear mostly the same thing I wear the rest of the year, I just leave off the thobes and abbayah. Linen or cotton yeleks, cotton dishdasha with linen or
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 7, 2010
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            I wear mostly the same thing I wear the rest of the year, I just leave off the thobes and abbayah.

            Linen or cotton yeleks, cotton dishdasha with linen or cotton serwal and churridurs, sheer cotton dupattas, cotton dulban. Then there is the rare and occasional cotton sari, for when I don't want to wear European.


            Cheers,
            Z.
          • anabeladg
            Yet again why I LOVE Spain. I wear 13th Century (during Alfonso X reign) in the summer because where else can one can wear a fitted camisa, sleeveless saya
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 7, 2010
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              Yet again why I LOVE Spain. I wear 13th Century (during Alfonso X reign) in the summer because where else can one can wear a fitted camisa, sleeveless saya (fitted underdress) and a pellote(sideless surcoat).

              http://jessamynscloset.com/13thcbasic.html

              Lady Ana de Granada
              Shire of Crystal Mynes
              Kingdom of Calontir

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica M" <jessicam11402@...> wrote:
              >
              > So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite summer garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
              >
              > -Galiena (who wore wool last week to an event, must find something cooler to make...)
              >
            • Laura
              I typically do 16th c. working class Italian, as depicted in the Campi paintings: http://silverstah.com/campi2.html http://silverstah.com/pinkcampi.html The
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 7, 2010
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                I typically do 16th c. working class Italian, as depicted in the Campi
                paintings:

                http://silverstah.com/campi2.html
                http://silverstah.com/pinkcampi.html

                The two shown there are in linen, but I'm working on one in a summer-weight
                wool. They're really comfy - even in 95 degree, Southern-humid head!

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Laura Parker
                http://www.silverstah.com
                http://feelingsheepish.etsy.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • MITCHELL J BARTON
                Turkish done mostly in linen and cotton. I just cut back on the layers as it gets warmer; Shalwar, Gomlek, and a caftan(entari). Works really well in
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 8, 2010
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                  Turkish done mostly in linen and cotton. I just cut back on the layers as it gets warmer; Shalwar, Gomlek, and a caftan(entari). Works really well in Arizona.
                  Ratiri
                  Shire of Granholme Kingdom of Atenveldt

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hawkyns
                  Does anyone have any sources on firesteel kits from the 14th/15th century?  I m not looking for info on the steels themselves, but on the boxes or pouches
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 9, 2010
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                    Does anyone have any sources on firesteel kits from the 14th/15th century?  I'm not looking for info on the steels themselves, but on the boxes or pouches they were carried in.
                     
                    Thanks,
                     
                    Hawkyns,
                    East



                     

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Quokkaqueen
                    It s not much, but there is a *very* vague dating of Tudor period and some photos of firesteel pouches here:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 9, 2010
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                      It's not much, but there is a *very* vague dating of 'Tudor period' and some photos of firesteel pouches here:
                      http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6519&sid=9b8d77d60c99e4eeb1e6be1aca1cbb84&start=30

                      Hope it's vaguely useful,
                      ~Asfridhr

                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Hawkyns <cannoneer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Does anyone have any sources on firesteel kits from the 14th/15th century?  I'm not looking for info on the steels themselves, but on the boxes or pouches they were carried in.
                      >  
                      > Thanks,
                      >  
                      > Hawkyns,
                      > East
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Sayyeda Samia al-Kaslaania
                      ... Hello Zahra, I m catching up on email. Do you have a website that discusses these garments? And can you tell me what region they are from? I know the names
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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                        On 7/7/2010 10:02 AM, Zhara wrote:
                        > I wear mostly the same thing I wear the rest of the year, I just leave off the thobes and abbayah.
                        >
                        > Linen or cotton yeleks, cotton dishdasha with linen or cotton serwal and churridurs, sheer cotton dupattas, cotton dulban. Then there is the rare and occasional cotton sari, for when I don't want to wear European.

                        Hello Zahra,

                        I'm catching up on email. Do you have a website that discusses these
                        garments? And can you tell me what region they are from? I know the
                        names change for garments across the Middle East and Mediterranean. :)

                        Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                      • asackville@juno.com
                        Summer garb? I m an Elizabethan. There s no such thing. Velvets and silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate. Middle Eastern, when I used to
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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                          Summer garb? I'm an Elizabethan. There's no such thing. Velvets and silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate.

                          Middle Eastern, when I used to indulge with an alternate persona, froze to death in the winter and was only mildly comfortable in the summer in Persian garb. Got too fat and no longer fit into that garb.

                          Use natural fibers so you don't die of heat.

                          Fionnuala

                          ____________________________________________________________
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                        • Zhara
                          Indeed the names change for these garments in different places, and I have no doubt added to the confusion by putting the garb of several parts of Europe
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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                            Indeed the names change for these garments in different places, and I have no doubt added to the confusion by putting the garb of several parts of Europe together into one paragraph with no separation. I meant to speak of two areas, southwestern Europe (the area today called "Spain" and "Portugal") and the part of central/eastern Europe that is today called "Turkey". The sari I was referring as the non-European clothing that I occasionally wear is from the Indian subcontinent.

                            One site with some great stuff:Clothing in al-Maghrib (the Muslim West)in the Medieval and Renaissance Periods http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/MaghribiCostume.html

                            I'm also a huge fan of both the Topkapi museum pics that appear on some sites (does require a bit of google-foo to get them), and the Alphonso Chess manual, in particular Chess problem #56, showing a lady wearing dulban (turban),dishdasha (a type of simple gown that has many names) and churridur (a particular type of trouser with distinctive narrowing and bunching of fabric on the lower legs appearing as irregular pleats or even seeming as leg wraps in the eyes of some viewers) and large sheer scarf.

                            Find this lady from the Alphoso Chess Manual in her cool and comfy glory here: http://historicgames.com/alphonso/tcintro.html

                            About that large sheer scarf: I used the word dupatta, although I should have remembered that dupatta is the Hindi word for it, my bad. Perhaps "chador" is the better term to use, but I will defer to the linguists in the group on that one.


                            Please also note that the fuller cut of trousers can appear as: sirwal, sherwal, sirwal, salwar, etc etc etc other spelling variations exist for several of the garments (dulban, tulbent, etc).

                            Cheers,
                            Z.
                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                            ... (sympathetic grin) I was an actor at Ren Faires for a number of years, as merchant class, then as nobility, and it could be over 100oF. ... One shouldn t
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 19, 2010
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                              Fionnuala wrote:
                              >Summer garb? I'm an Elizabethan. There's no such thing. Velvets and
                              >silk in January....velvets and silk in July. Just hydrate.

                              (sympathetic grin) I was an actor at Ren Faires for a number of
                              years, as merchant class, then as nobility, and it could be over
                              100oF.

                              >Middle Eastern, when I used to indulge with an alternate persona,
                              >froze to death in the winter and was only mildly comfortable in the
                              >summer in Persian garb. Got too fat and no longer fit into that garb.

                              One shouldn't be freezing in winter in proper Persian clothing.
                              Medieval Persians didn't want to be cold any more than we do, and
                              winters can be quite cold in Persia. One just needs appropriate
                              layers made of appropriate fabrics. For winter, they layered on qaba
                              make of wool and often wore fur lined qaba, as well.

                              >Use natural fibers so you don't die of heat.

                              I agree, and they generally keep one warmer in winter, if one picks
                              the right fibers.

                              My personal experience is here in The West Kingdom, where most events
                              are weekend long camping. It is usually in the 40s at night, spring,
                              summer, and fall (and it can be in the high 20s at night at the week
                              long Estrella War in Arizona in February). During the day in The West
                              it can be in the 50s (even in the summer) to the 110s, depending on
                              time of year and event location.

                              My 14th c. Egyptian tunic is linen, and my underlayers (kamis and
                              sirwal) are also linen. Early on, i had tunics and sirwal made of a
                              cotton/linen blend, and also of cotton because cotton is historically
                              accurate for tunics in the Mamluk period. I have found that linen is
                              much cooler in heat and warmer in cold than cotton, and handles
                              humidity better than cotton, too. Real linen holds up well to machine
                              washing and various websites offer it at reasonable prices.

                              My Persian pirihan is sheer cotton, based on a couple surviving
                              examples. My outer kaba is dupioni silk lined with dupioni silk. My
                              inner qaba are often of cotton with appropriate prints lined with
                              china silk = habotai. They have kept me warm at events at night, and
                              i am sensitive to cold. I only wear heavy jacquard woven fabrics as
                              the loose upper layer and often skip that. Even though people then to
                              call jacquard ''brocade'', it is VERY far from real brocade. Real
                              brocade would be bearable because, except for the motifs, it is only
                              plain weave or twill weave and often quite thin. Little *real*
                              brocade is still woven today, tends to cost around US $1000 per
                              meter, and is about 36'' wide.

                              Let me add that different silks in different weaves behave
                              differently in heat, and i have found that with the addition
                              humidity, most silks can be *very* uncomfortable, even with cotton
                              ''underwear''.

                              Frankly, i have often been puzzled by the assumption in the SCA that
                              Middle Eastern clothing is necessarily cooler than European. In much
                              of North Africa and the Middle East, people wear outer garments made
                              of wool, even in hot paces. And traditional clothing quite fully
                              covers males and females, leaving only hands and feet exposed, and -
                              depending on location, traditions, and gender - neck and face. The
                              heads of both males and females would also be covered. This makes
                              sense as this protects the wearer from sunburn and dehydration.

                              In modern times, however, men and women in the Middle East often wear
                              polyester and other synthetics, and women's abaya (where they are
                              worn) are often black and synthetic, guaranteed to be miserably hot
                              and suffocating in summer and insufficiently warm in winter.

                              Yet even with this professed desire to wear Middle Eastern clothing,
                              i see SCAdians wearing all sorts of modern and fantasy garb, such as
                              the so-called Ghawazee coat with slits up to there! and a wide and
                              deep upper front window of opportunity, a garment that existed no
                              earlier than the 1970s (yes, late 20th c.), along with giant poofy
                              pants which are also not SCA period.

                              Frankly, early medieval European tunics are just as comfortable as
                              Middle Eastern and North African tunics and made of the same
                              materials: linen and wool. So i'm not sure why SCAdians who want
                              cooler clothing don't shift from later SCA-period European to earlier
                              European in the summer. I suspect that SCAdians go for ME in the
                              summer because of: a desire for a change from one's usual garb; a
                              desire for the ''exotic''; and cultural misunderstandings, such as
                              looking at and liking 19th c. European Orientalist art, much of which
                              did not represent reality, but was intentionally erotic, and was
                              stimulated by or stimulated sex tours by white male Europeans to the
                              Middle East.
                              --
                              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita

                              Dar Anahita
                              http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
                              info on Near & Middle Eastern garb, medieval Egyptian knitting, and
                              period feasts and recipes
                            • lilinah@earthlink.net
                              ... There are significant differences between sirwal and shalvar (not specifying one spelling, just using one for simplicity). Shalvar was originally Persian.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                Zhara wrote:
                                >Please also note that the fuller cut of trousers can appear as:
                                >sirwal, sherwal, sirwal, salwar, etc etc etc

                                There are significant differences between sirwal and shalvar (not
                                specifying one spelling, just using one for simplicity).

                                Shalvar was originally Persian. The Arabs adopted them, adopted the
                                name, then adapted them, changing the name. In standard Arabic one is
                                sirwal, more than one is sarawil. Variations in spelling are partly
                                due to pronunciation differences around the Arabic speaking world.

                                Sirwal has legs that go straight down, sort of like modern pajamas
                                (and that word comes from India).

                                Shalvar, worn in the Persian and Ottoman Empires and parts of Central
                                Asia, has legs that are wide at the top and narrow as they go down
                                the leg, often snug at the ankles.

                                Both use gussets in the crotch (and sometimes the inner legs, too)
                                for ease of movement, although shaped and inserted differently, and
                                drawstring waists.

                                >other spelling variations exist for several of the garments (dulban,
                                >tulbent, etc).

                                And don't forget turban...
                                --
                                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                the persona formerly known as Anahita
                              • gianottadallafiora
                                For me, it depends on the humidity. We ve been having an extremely hot and humid summer here in the East Kingdom, and I have found that a loose Abbasid-style
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                  For me, it depends on the humidity. We've been having an extremely hot and humid summer here in the East Kingdom, and I have found that a loose Abbasid-style or Norman tunic and trousers, even in 100% linen, are dandy in wicking the sweat but the humidity prevents the sweat from evaporating from the material. Thus I don't get the cooling effect that I would in a climate that is much drier. Hot, wet cloth=grumpy me.

                                  When I went to East Kingdom War Camp this past Saturday, the temperature was in the 90s, and humidity climbed up there too, so I opted for a short choli with shisha embroidery and a long cotton circle skirt, embroidered here and there with shisha mirrors. I also had a piece of white silk chiffon for veiling. Overall, I was striving for a Mughal look and it's made me seriously look into constructing a Mughal-style Indian outfit, because when a breeze did blow across my sweaty back and midsection, it felt OMG AMAZING. And short cholis with skirts are period for that time and place.

                                  I do realize that most people like to go a lot more covered up (I've lost a lot of weight over the past year and this choli fit me again). But there are limits, even for me. While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P

                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/

                                  I do rather like the outfit the serving girl on the dais is wearing, the green and gold one, although I'd still probably sweat to death in it.

                                  Adelisa de Salernum

                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica M" <jessicam11402@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > So as the weather gets warmer, I am wondering what everyone's favorite summer garb is? Links to pictures or documentation would be awesome!
                                  >
                                  > -Galiena (who wore wool last week to an event, must find something cooler to make...)
                                  >
                                • George A. Trosper
                                  ... I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering. --George/Gerard
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 21, 2010
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                                    gianottadallafiora wrote:
                                    > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                                    >
                                    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                                    >
                                    > Adelisa de Salernum
                                    I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                                    obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.

                                    --George/Gerard
                                  • Katherine Throckmorton
                                    It isn t as clear in this illustration, but in similar ones its fairly obvious that the dancers are wearing cholis under their sheer coats, which is less
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jul 21, 2010
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                                      It isn't as clear in this illustration, but in similar ones its fairly
                                      obvious that the dancers are wearing cholis under their sheer coats, which
                                      is less scandalous. I've also seen illustrations of women wearing fishtail
                                      saris with a choli and dupatta, which are quite comfortable in the summer.


                                      Katherine/Asma


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Madame du Pont
                                      ... Bonjour, The guy on the lower right is definitely leering. And don t be fooled by musicians, they love to play for the dancers and they have learned to
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jul 22, 2010
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > gianottadallafiora wrote:
                                        > > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                                        > >
                                        > > Adelisa de Salernum
                                        > I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                                        > obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.
                                        >
                                        > --George/Gerard

                                        Bonjour,

                                        The guy on the lower right is definitely leering. And don't be fooled by musicians, they love to play for the dancers and they have learned to 'look' without drooling. And I just learned that after a lot of drumming it is a nice gesture for the dancers to massage the drummers hands.

                                        Nice pictue...

                                        Adieu,
                                        Madame du Pont
                                        Shire de Tymberhavene
                                        Kingdom d'An Tir
                                      • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                        ... Are you joking or are you being serious? -- Urtatim [that s err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jul 22, 2010
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                                          After gianottadallafiora wrote:
                                          > While authentic, and probably pretty cool, the outfits worn by the
                                          >dancing girls in the this illuminated manuscript from the 16th
                                          >century are not publicly acceptable. ;-P
                                          >
                                          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/
                                          >
                                          > Adelisa de Salernum

                                          George/Gerard replied:
                                          >I find it interesting that none of the guys seem to be leering. Quite
                                          >obviously interested in a few case, but no one obviously leering.

                                          Are you joking or are you being serious?

                                          --
                                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                        • Zhara
                                          Dude in the burnt sienna/brown is definitely leering. If pressed, I d say the drummers are as well. ... Question: does anyone know of any particular
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                            Dude in the burnt sienna/brown is definitely leering. If pressed, I'd say the drummers are as well.

                                            > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/4535279877/sizes/o/

                                            Question: does anyone know of any particular significance to the way leering-guy is wearing his stole/scarf? There is some evidence of symbolism in the way clothing is worn in period illustrations (loosened/disheveled turbans are a sign of mourning, floppy sleeves a sign of reckless abandon, etc...)

                                            Is a wearing one's scarf in a twisty-wrap a sign of lust?

                                            Just Curious,
                                            Z.
                                          • George A. Trosper
                                            ... I was serious. But from your response and Madame du Pont s, I was seriously *mistaken* about the amount of leering going on. I can t even be 100% certain
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                              lilinah@... wrote:
                                              > Are you joking or are you being serious?
                                              I was serious. But from your response and Madame du Pont's, I was
                                              seriously *mistaken* about the amount of leering going on. I can't even
                                              be 100% certain which guy at the lower right she's talking about. AH,
                                              well. I knew I wasn't good at this, but didn't realize I was pitiful!

                                              --George/Gerard
                                            • Sayyeda Samia al-Kaslaania
                                              ... Sayyeda Zahra, The way it s worn is reminiscent of the way some wraps are worn in the Maqamat al-Hariri, and further described by Yedida Stillman in her
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jul 23, 2010
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                                                On 7/23/2010 10:25 AM, Zhara wrote:
                                                > Question: does anyone know of any particular significance to the way leering-guy is wearing his stole/scarf? There is some evidence of symbolism in the way clothing is worn in period illustrations (loosened/disheveled turbans are a sign of mourning, floppy sleeves a sign of reckless abandon, etc...)
                                                >
                                                > Is a wearing one's scarf in a twisty-wrap a sign of lust?
                                                >
                                                > Just Curious,
                                                > Z.

                                                Sayyeda Zahra,

                                                The way it's worn is reminiscent of the way some wraps are worn in the
                                                Maqamat al-Hariri, and further described by Yedida Stillman in her
                                                dissertation. I wonder if it's a kind of vestigial garment?

                                                Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
                                              • gianottadallafiora
                                                Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jul 29, 2010
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                                                  Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a dancer in a tiny, tiny top; almost non-existent cups and very thin straps around the body and shoulders. You could see the musician directly behind her had this look on his face like "Please, please G-d, may that bra strap break!" which intensified every time she bent forward. It was hilarious.

                                                  Adelisa de Salernum
                                                • George A. Trosper
                                                  ... Research has shown (I remember reading) that what str8 guys most appreciate in minimal women s wear is not exactly how minimal it is, but how likely full
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jul 30, 2010
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                                                    gianottadallafiora wrote:
                                                    > Totally OOP, but in a class about Turkish bellydance being taught by Artemis Mourat, we were watching some video she had taped from Turkish television, of a dancer in a tiny, tiny top; almost non-existent cups and very thin straps around the body and shoulders. You could see the musician directly behind her had this look on his face like "Please, please G-d, may that bra strap break!" which intensified every time she bent forward. It was hilarious.
                                                    >
                                                    > Adelisa de Salernum
                                                    Research has shown (I remember reading) that what str8 guys most
                                                    appreciate in minimal women's wear is not exactly how minimal it is, but
                                                    how likely full disclosure appears.
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