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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Elizabethan monk

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  • George A. Trosper
    ... Apparently the huge majority are, although there s at least one group calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their web-site -
    Message 1 of 11 , May 8, 2010
      Chris Laning wrote:
      > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
      Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
      calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
      web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
      cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
      parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
      research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
      tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.

      However, their site also reminds me of the Carthusians, a cloistered
      order that is in fact non-Benedictine, with an 11th-c. rule by St.
      Bruno. They're the ones that have "charterhouses" (by folk etymology
      from Chartreuse, where they came from).
      http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/monastic+order says that
      they're the ONLY non-Benedictine monks of the West*, so they're probably
      the only long-established major order.

      Nevertheless, the Carmelite monks' site mentions Brigetine monks, which
      seems to be a misspelling for the Brigittine Monks, who are also pretty
      new (1976, from the Wikipedia) in the life of the Church. And I wouldn't
      bet against there being others.
      > technically only the Benedictines and those derived from them
      > (Cistercians, Trappists, etc.) are monks.
      It's not the rule's source that matters, it's the kind of rule.
      Cloistered religious are monks or nuns, un-cloistered are friars or
      sisters--the latter confusingly often called nuns. To top it off,
      cloistered Carmelite nuns designate an out-*sister* to deal with the
      rest of the world.

      But you call them all Brother (or Father) or Sister . . . except some
      Benedictine-type and Carthusian monks who like the Portuguese-derived Dom.
      > I'm always happy to be proved wrong when I assert something, though ;)
      Me, too! I don't remember if you in particular have provided me that
      service, but if you did, I hope I proffered proper thanks.

      --Gerard

      * There are also Eastern Church monks, none of whom are Benedictine. And
      let's not talk about canons regular.
    • George A. Trosper
      ... I d just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough. As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in 1536 (16
      Message 2 of 11 , May 8, 2010
        eldwin_nightowl wrote:
        > My primary persona is Elizabethan, but not a monk, so if I want to stay
        > authentic I may simply have to move my monk--excuse me, friar--a few
        > years earlier or out of England (or at least to an isolated community).
        I'd just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough.

        As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
        1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
        up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"--see, e.g.,
        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12084b.htm --so I suppose I'm
        prejudiced.* Nevertheless, the Suppression of the Monasteries seems to
        have been very thorough and systematic indeed, at least in part for
        financial reasons. (See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10455a.htm for a
        highly anti-monarchical, pro-Catholic account, probably outdated in some
        respects by more recent scholarship.)

        Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
        or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
        rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. I mean, I know a distinguished
        Lord who died in the Battle of the Banners and has lived several decades
        since in the Barony of Loch Salann! But it would probably prove
        difficult or impossible to live in community, pretty much essential to
        call yourself a friar.

        --Gerard

        * I've also recently seen Poulenc's opera /Les Dialogues des Carmélites
        /set in Revolutionary France.
      • MaryL
        ... [...] ... Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!! On those few occasions when someone has added the story of how I
        Message 3 of 11 , May 8, 2010
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:

          > As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
          > 1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
          > up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"
          [...]
          >
          > Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
          > or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
          > rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. [...]

          Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!!

          On those few occasions when someone has added the story of "how I came to this Kingdom from Shrewsbury / Antioch / Genoa / Stratford-atte-Bowe / the court of the Khan / etc." to his or her persona's life history, I always enjoy hearing the tale. To me, it's the icing on the persona cake. :-)

          Adelicia di Rienzi
          (Mary Llewellyn)
        • lariandrobert@fuse.net
          ... Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them
          Message 4 of 11 , May 10, 2010
            ---- "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:
            > Chris Laning wrote:
            > > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
            > Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
            > calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
            > web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
            > cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
            > parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
            > research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
            > tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.
            Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin' Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them farther out of the world, if possible. They saw this as a return to primitive practice, of course. Whether that view is based in objective reality or wishful thinking is largelt irrelevant SCA recreation.
            Malcolm
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