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Re: Elizabethan monk

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  • eldwin_nightowl
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    Message 1 of 11 , May 7, 2010
      MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we ask that you not top post. Please delete any text which does not require repetition. Thank you.
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      REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED.

      Dame Christian,


      It appears the sources I saw say monks and friars continued through
      Queen Elizabeth of England's time, but not officially in England. I seem
      to recall they continued in Ireland longer than in England, but don't
      have a source for that right now.

      My primary persona is Elizabethan, but not a monk, so if I want to stay
      authentic I may simply have to move my monk--excuse me, friar--a few
      years earlier or out of England (or at least to an isolated community).

      Again, thank you very much for your detailed and very informative
      response.

      Eldwin Nightowl <http://eldwin.loveshade.org/>
    • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
      ... I m aware. have you seen this site? http://www.almy.com/Cincture.pdf The reason I thought I d check is that most knots have different names when they are
      Message 2 of 11 , May 7, 2010
        > The lark's head I'm talking about is this one:
        > http://www.free-macrame-patterns.com/larks-head-knot.html
        >
        > The loose ends of the rope go through the loop like the blue
        > cord in
        > the picture.


        I'm aware.

        have you seen this site?
        http://www.almy.com/Cincture.pdf

        The reason I thought I'd check is that most knots have different
        names when they are tied in different things

        A clove hitch is tied on a post, when tied on its own rope to make
        a loop is called two half hitches

        In this case, you were correct.
        A larks head knot tied onto a metal ring is a ringbolt hitch.
        Tied on a post it's a cow hitch
        Tied on some rope it's a larks head...



        > Do you know whether there's a proper name for the knot you get
        > if you
        > start to tie an overhand knot, but wrap the end through the loop
        > six
        > or eight times instead of once?
        > http://paternosters.blogspot.com/2007/08/why-knot.html
        >
        > In embroidery it's called a "bullion knot," but I haven't found
        > a
        > proper name or instructions for it on the net. It's what
        > Franciscans
        > use -- and by the evidence of paintings, have used for a very
        > long
        > time -- for the three hanging knots on the loose end of the
        > friar's
        > rope belt. I seem to get quite a few hits on this specific
        > article in
        > my blog, and I suspect it's partly for this reason.

        It's often called a bead knot, as it was sometimes used for tying "sailors rosaries"
        The more common term is "blood knot"

        It is used a lot in "Quipus" which are accounting tools used by the Inca and
        modern Andean Natives. The number of loops in each knot would be used
        to count demoninations (ones, fives, tens, etc.)

        Capt Elias


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George A. Trosper
        ... Apparently the huge majority are, although there s at least one group calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their web-site -
        Message 3 of 11 , May 8, 2010
          Chris Laning wrote:
          > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
          Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
          calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
          web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
          cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
          parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
          research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
          tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.

          However, their site also reminds me of the Carthusians, a cloistered
          order that is in fact non-Benedictine, with an 11th-c. rule by St.
          Bruno. They're the ones that have "charterhouses" (by folk etymology
          from Chartreuse, where they came from).
          http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/monastic+order says that
          they're the ONLY non-Benedictine monks of the West*, so they're probably
          the only long-established major order.

          Nevertheless, the Carmelite monks' site mentions Brigetine monks, which
          seems to be a misspelling for the Brigittine Monks, who are also pretty
          new (1976, from the Wikipedia) in the life of the Church. And I wouldn't
          bet against there being others.
          > technically only the Benedictines and those derived from them
          > (Cistercians, Trappists, etc.) are monks.
          It's not the rule's source that matters, it's the kind of rule.
          Cloistered religious are monks or nuns, un-cloistered are friars or
          sisters--the latter confusingly often called nuns. To top it off,
          cloistered Carmelite nuns designate an out-*sister* to deal with the
          rest of the world.

          But you call them all Brother (or Father) or Sister . . . except some
          Benedictine-type and Carthusian monks who like the Portuguese-derived Dom.
          > I'm always happy to be proved wrong when I assert something, though ;)
          Me, too! I don't remember if you in particular have provided me that
          service, but if you did, I hope I proffered proper thanks.

          --Gerard

          * There are also Eastern Church monks, none of whom are Benedictine. And
          let's not talk about canons regular.
        • George A. Trosper
          ... I d just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough. As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in 1536 (16
          Message 4 of 11 , May 8, 2010
            eldwin_nightowl wrote:
            > My primary persona is Elizabethan, but not a monk, so if I want to stay
            > authentic I may simply have to move my monk--excuse me, friar--a few
            > years earlier or out of England (or at least to an isolated community).
            I'd just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough.

            As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
            1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
            up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"--see, e.g.,
            http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12084b.htm --so I suppose I'm
            prejudiced.* Nevertheless, the Suppression of the Monasteries seems to
            have been very thorough and systematic indeed, at least in part for
            financial reasons. (See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10455a.htm for a
            highly anti-monarchical, pro-Catholic account, probably outdated in some
            respects by more recent scholarship.)

            Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
            or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
            rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. I mean, I know a distinguished
            Lord who died in the Battle of the Banners and has lived several decades
            since in the Barony of Loch Salann! But it would probably prove
            difficult or impossible to live in community, pretty much essential to
            call yourself a friar.

            --Gerard

            * I've also recently seen Poulenc's opera /Les Dialogues des Carmélites
            /set in Revolutionary France.
          • MaryL
            ... [...] ... Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!! On those few occasions when someone has added the story of how I
            Message 5 of 11 , May 8, 2010
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:

              > As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
              > 1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
              > up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"
              [...]
              >
              > Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
              > or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
              > rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. [...]

              Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!!

              On those few occasions when someone has added the story of "how I came to this Kingdom from Shrewsbury / Antioch / Genoa / Stratford-atte-Bowe / the court of the Khan / etc." to his or her persona's life history, I always enjoy hearing the tale. To me, it's the icing on the persona cake. :-)

              Adelicia di Rienzi
              (Mary Llewellyn)
            • lariandrobert@fuse.net
              ... Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them
              Message 6 of 11 , May 10, 2010
                ---- "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:
                > Chris Laning wrote:
                > > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
                > Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
                > calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
                > web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
                > cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
                > parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
                > research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
                > tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.
                Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin' Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them farther out of the world, if possible. They saw this as a return to primitive practice, of course. Whether that view is based in objective reality or wishful thinking is largelt irrelevant SCA recreation.
                Malcolm
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