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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Elizabethan monk

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  • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
    ... The Larks head knot is also what you get when you tie what is generally called reef knot or square Knot and give it an uneven tug. I think there is a
    Message 1 of 11 , May 7, 2010
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      > Rope belts also don't need to be really heavy -- 3/8 or 1/2 inch
      > rope
      > is plenty heavy enough. The rope is worn doubled (folded in
      > half),
      > and it's fastened at the waist with a simple lark's head knot. I
      > can
      > provide instructions if you want to know exactly how to tie the
      > proper
      > knots.

      The "Larks head knot" is also what you get when you tie what is
      generally called "reef" knot or "square Knot" and give it an uneven tug.

      I think there is a slightly more accurate knot name for this, but I will have
      to check my copy of Graumonts Encyclopedia when I get home.

      Capt Elias


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chris Laning
      ... The lark s head I m talking about is this one: http://www.free-macrame-patterns.com/larks-head-knot.html The loose ends of the rope go through the loop
      Message 2 of 11 , May 7, 2010
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        On May 7, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Captain Elias wrote:

        > The "Larks head knot" is also what you get when you tie what is
        > generally called "reef" knot or "square Knot" and give it an uneven
        > tug.
        >
        > I think there is a slightly more accurate knot name for this, but I
        > will have
        > to check my copy of Graumonts Encyclopedia when I get home.

        The lark's head I'm talking about is this one:
        http://www.free-macrame-patterns.com/larks-head-knot.html

        The loose ends of the rope go through the loop like the blue cord in
        the picture.

        -------------------------------

        Do you know whether there's a proper name for the knot you get if you
        start to tie an overhand knot, but wrap the end through the loop six
        or eight times instead of once?
        http://paternosters.blogspot.com/2007/08/why-knot.html

        In embroidery it's called a "bullion knot," but I haven't found a
        proper name or instructions for it on the net. It's what Franciscans
        use -- and by the evidence of paintings, have used for a very long
        time -- for the three hanging knots on the loose end of the friar's
        rope belt. I seem to get quite a few hits on this specific article in
        my blog, and I suspect it's partly for this reason.

        (Answer to trivia question no one asked: friars have three knots, Poor
        Clare nuns have four, and Third Order Franciscans have five ;)

        ____________________________________________________________

        O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
        + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
        http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
        ____________________________________________________________
      • eldwin_nightowl
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        Message 3 of 11 , May 7, 2010
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          MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we ask that you not top post. Please delete any text which does not require repetition.

          Please also sign your posts. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator

          REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED


          Wow, that's a whole lot of useful info. Thanks very much!
        • eldwin_nightowl
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          Message 4 of 11 , May 7, 2010
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            MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we ask that you not top post. Please delete any text which does not require repetition. Thank you.
            Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator

            REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED.

            Dame Christian,


            It appears the sources I saw say monks and friars continued through
            Queen Elizabeth of England's time, but not officially in England. I seem
            to recall they continued in Ireland longer than in England, but don't
            have a source for that right now.

            My primary persona is Elizabethan, but not a monk, so if I want to stay
            authentic I may simply have to move my monk--excuse me, friar--a few
            years earlier or out of England (or at least to an isolated community).

            Again, thank you very much for your detailed and very informative
            response.

            Eldwin Nightowl <http://eldwin.loveshade.org/>
          • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
            ... I m aware. have you seen this site? http://www.almy.com/Cincture.pdf The reason I thought I d check is that most knots have different names when they are
            Message 5 of 11 , May 7, 2010
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              > The lark's head I'm talking about is this one:
              > http://www.free-macrame-patterns.com/larks-head-knot.html
              >
              > The loose ends of the rope go through the loop like the blue
              > cord in
              > the picture.


              I'm aware.

              have you seen this site?
              http://www.almy.com/Cincture.pdf

              The reason I thought I'd check is that most knots have different
              names when they are tied in different things

              A clove hitch is tied on a post, when tied on its own rope to make
              a loop is called two half hitches

              In this case, you were correct.
              A larks head knot tied onto a metal ring is a ringbolt hitch.
              Tied on a post it's a cow hitch
              Tied on some rope it's a larks head...



              > Do you know whether there's a proper name for the knot you get
              > if you
              > start to tie an overhand knot, but wrap the end through the loop
              > six
              > or eight times instead of once?
              > http://paternosters.blogspot.com/2007/08/why-knot.html
              >
              > In embroidery it's called a "bullion knot," but I haven't found
              > a
              > proper name or instructions for it on the net. It's what
              > Franciscans
              > use -- and by the evidence of paintings, have used for a very
              > long
              > time -- for the three hanging knots on the loose end of the
              > friar's
              > rope belt. I seem to get quite a few hits on this specific
              > article in
              > my blog, and I suspect it's partly for this reason.

              It's often called a bead knot, as it was sometimes used for tying "sailors rosaries"
              The more common term is "blood knot"

              It is used a lot in "Quipus" which are accounting tools used by the Inca and
              modern Andean Natives. The number of loops in each knot would be used
              to count demoninations (ones, fives, tens, etc.)

              Capt Elias


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George A. Trosper
              ... Apparently the huge majority are, although there s at least one group calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their web-site -
              Message 6 of 11 , May 8, 2010
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                Chris Laning wrote:
                > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
                Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
                calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
                web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
                cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
                parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
                research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
                tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.

                However, their site also reminds me of the Carthusians, a cloistered
                order that is in fact non-Benedictine, with an 11th-c. rule by St.
                Bruno. They're the ones that have "charterhouses" (by folk etymology
                from Chartreuse, where they came from).
                http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/monastic+order says that
                they're the ONLY non-Benedictine monks of the West*, so they're probably
                the only long-established major order.

                Nevertheless, the Carmelite monks' site mentions Brigetine monks, which
                seems to be a misspelling for the Brigittine Monks, who are also pretty
                new (1976, from the Wikipedia) in the life of the Church. And I wouldn't
                bet against there being others.
                > technically only the Benedictines and those derived from them
                > (Cistercians, Trappists, etc.) are monks.
                It's not the rule's source that matters, it's the kind of rule.
                Cloistered religious are monks or nuns, un-cloistered are friars or
                sisters--the latter confusingly often called nuns. To top it off,
                cloistered Carmelite nuns designate an out-*sister* to deal with the
                rest of the world.

                But you call them all Brother (or Father) or Sister . . . except some
                Benedictine-type and Carthusian monks who like the Portuguese-derived Dom.
                > I'm always happy to be proved wrong when I assert something, though ;)
                Me, too! I don't remember if you in particular have provided me that
                service, but if you did, I hope I proffered proper thanks.

                --Gerard

                * There are also Eastern Church monks, none of whom are Benedictine. And
                let's not talk about canons regular.
              • George A. Trosper
                ... I d just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough. As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in 1536 (16
                Message 7 of 11 , May 8, 2010
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                  eldwin_nightowl wrote:
                  > My primary persona is Elizabethan, but not a monk, so if I want to stay
                  > authentic I may simply have to move my monk--excuse me, friar--a few
                  > years earlier or out of England (or at least to an isolated community).
                  I'd just about bet money that there were no communities isolated enough.

                  As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
                  1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
                  up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"--see, e.g.,
                  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12084b.htm --so I suppose I'm
                  prejudiced.* Nevertheless, the Suppression of the Monasteries seems to
                  have been very thorough and systematic indeed, at least in part for
                  financial reasons. (See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10455a.htm for a
                  highly anti-monarchical, pro-Catholic account, probably outdated in some
                  respects by more recent scholarship.)

                  Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
                  or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
                  rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. I mean, I know a distinguished
                  Lord who died in the Battle of the Banners and has lived several decades
                  since in the Barony of Loch Salann! But it would probably prove
                  difficult or impossible to live in community, pretty much essential to
                  call yourself a friar.

                  --Gerard

                  * I've also recently seen Poulenc's opera /Les Dialogues des Carmélites
                  /set in Revolutionary France.
                • MaryL
                  ... [...] ... Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!! On those few occasions when someone has added the story of how I
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 8, 2010
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:

                    > As Gerard, I shall somehow die at age 79 on the Pilgrimage of Grace, in
                    > 1536 (16 years from my current "now"), when many of us Northerners rise
                    > up and declare "you will NOT do this to our Church!"
                    [...]
                    >
                    > Of course you'd be welcome to flee to any SCA Barony, Province, Shire,
                    > or other unit *after* the Dissolution and tell horror stories for the
                    > rest of your life to anyone who'd listen. [...]

                    Now this kind of thing is one of many reasons why I love reading this list!!!

                    On those few occasions when someone has added the story of "how I came to this Kingdom from Shrewsbury / Antioch / Genoa / Stratford-atte-Bowe / the court of the Khan / etc." to his or her persona's life history, I always enjoy hearing the tale. To me, it's the icing on the persona cake. :-)

                    Adelicia di Rienzi
                    (Mary Llewellyn)
                  • lariandrobert@fuse.net
                    ... Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 10, 2010
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                      ---- "George A. Trosper" <gtrosper@...> wrote:
                      > Chris Laning wrote:
                      > > Dominicans and Franciscans are both friars, and I believe Carmelites are too.
                      > Apparently the huge majority are, although there's at least one group
                      > calling themselves Carmelite *monks* up in Wyoming. According to their
                      > web-site - http://www.carmelitemonks.org/Aboutmonks.html - they're
                      > cloistered, which means they don't go out the way friars do, run
                      > parishes, etc., so they're using the word strictly. Without further
                      > research, I'd bet that this situation is very new, so not SCA-relevant,
                      > tho clearly 21st-c. relevant.
                      Not at all! The 16th century reform of Juan de la Cruz and Smilin' Terry was about making the discalced Carmelites monchas MORE cloistered, getting them farther out of the world, if possible. They saw this as a return to primitive practice, of course. Whether that view is based in objective reality or wishful thinking is largelt irrelevant SCA recreation.
                      Malcolm
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