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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Name woes ...

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  • Heather Rose Jones
    ... Sometimes when the requested combination of time-place-language-culture isn t available in the research sources, the heralds guess wrong about which
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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      On Apr 22, 2010, at 11:06 PM, gianottadallafiora wrote:

      > Thank you for the information. I am not trying to document it in Tuscan Italian, which as a dialect did not exist in 1130. The Latin bit I cited is a dedication from the count of Lucera and Gargano in memory of his mother Adelisa, daughter of Roger II of Sicily. I am trying to find the entire citation, rather than just the bit quoted by Thierry Strausser, which seems to be in an Italian journal I can't get hold of.
      >
      > My persona is the daughter of a Norman knight and a Lombard woman serving at the court of Roger II; originally, I had chosen the surname "di Salerno," because I reasoned that would be used to distinguish her from the royal Adelisa. But the locative was incorrect because it's in later-period Italian.
      >

      Sometimes when the requested combination of time-place-language-culture isn't available in the research sources, the heralds guess wrong about which elements you're going to be most attached to. As a general rule, when asked, people tend to be more attached to a language/culture than to a specific time-period (or to the written forms likely in a specific time-period). So if there's no specific information on your preferences, I wouldn't be surprised if a request for "early 12th century Italian", if not fulfillable, would be resolved into "later Italian" rather than "early 12th century some language other than Italian".

      > However, what came back from Laurel was not quite right either; Adeliza da Salerno. Northern French name + later-period Italian locative + later-period Italian name for the city.
      >
      > Therefore I'm going to resubmit as "Adelisa de Salernum," which all conforms to the Latin used at that time, and what seems to be the spelling of Roger's daughter's name in Armarium B 27.

      Wouldn't the preposition "de" take the ablative? Thus "de Salerno"?

      Tangwystyl
    • George A. Trosper
      ... and ... I know nothing about the specifics here, but nevertheless I hope you will pardon one question: In both passages above, you are talking only about
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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        gianottadallafiora wrote:
        > There was no Italian vernacular in common use then in that region of Italy (vernacular poetry in what evolved into the Sicilian dialect began to pop up in Frederick II's time about 100 years later, and there are some who think that this influenced the Tuscan poets).
        >
        and
        > I am not trying to document it in Tuscan Italian, which as a dialect did not exist in 1130.
        I know nothing about the specifics here, but nevertheless I hope you
        will pardon one question: In both passages above, you are talking only
        about written versions of the language, aren't you? (If not, I do have
        additional questions!) Thanks.

        --Gerard
      • Scott
        Unless she has the exact phrase de Salernum documented, I would tend to agree. The Latin used in the 11th century codex that I examined did have many
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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          Unless she has the exact phrase 'de Salernum' documented, I would tend to agree. The Latin used in the 11th century codex that I examined did have many non-standard endings (e.g., non-classical).



          N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD

          Professor Emeritus

          history & languages

          THL Colm Dubh

          Herald Extraordinaire

          Ensign Herald, Trimaris

          Apprentice to Master Finn Normansson, Baron Seleone


          Wouldn't the preposition "de" take the ablative? Thus "de Salerno"?

          Tangwystyl





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