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RE: [Authentic_SCA] Name woes ...

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  • Scott
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    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 21, 2010
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      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in
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      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of gianottadallafiora

      I figured there might be someone in this more scholarly-oriented group who
      might be able to point me to any books that have reprinted some of the
      records from the Abbazia Ss. Trinita, Cava de' Tirreni.



      If you are submitting Adelisa filia +the genitive of the Latin form of some
      name, you should have no problem.

      If you are using a Latin form and claiming that it is the "Italian" form,
      you may have some difficulties. I do

      not have access to the Cava de Tirreni MSS but I did have hands on
      experience with the first volume of

      Codex diplomaticus Cavensis.

      Unfortunately I do not have Adelisa-only Adelgisa in my files, which pertain
      to the Lombardic dialect of

      Vulgar Latin. Note that a "z" in a Romance name would become an 's' in
      Latin: 'z' was used solely for

      Latin transliterations of Greek names and words. I am not saying that
      'Adelisa' cannot be documented

      in period 'Northern' (Tuscan?) Italian. I am saying that I cannot document
      it in Tuscan. Perhaps it is from

      Milan-although Campagni is in the Salerno (Southern) area. Sicilian is
      often considered a separate language

      from standard Italian, which is based on Tuscan. Sicilian is more similar
      to the languages of Sardinia than of

      Italy.

      Colm Dubh
    • gianottadallafiora
      ... I think that you are right, claiming it was the Italian form is what brought difficulties in the first place. My persona is 1130s. There was no Italian
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 22, 2010
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <Scat@...> wrote:

        > If you are submitting Adelisa filia +the genitive of the Latin form of some
        > name, you should have no problem.
        >
        > If you are using a Latin form and claiming that it is the "Italian" form,
        > you may have some difficulties.

        I think that you are right, claiming it was the Italian form is what brought difficulties in the first place. My persona is 1130s. There was no Italian vernacular in common use then in that region of Italy (vernacular poetry in what evolved into the Sicilian dialect began to pop up in Frederick II's time about 100 years later, and there are some who think that this influenced the Tuscan poets).

        Southern Italy had four ethnic groups of that time; Lombards, Greeks, Arabs, and then the Normans. The Cava manuscripts mostly deal with the Lombard and Norman groups, who used Latin as their common tongue, from what I understand.

        > Unfortunately I do not have Adelisa-only Adelgisa in my files, which pertain
        > to the Lombardic dialect of
        >
        > Vulgar Latin. Note that a "z" in a Romance name would become an 's' in
        > Latin: 'z' was used solely for
        >
        > Latin transliterations of Greek names and words. I am not saying that
        > 'Adelisa' cannot be documented
        >
        > in period 'Northern' (Tuscan?) Italian. I am saying that I cannot document
        > it in Tuscan. Perhaps it is from
        >
        > Milan-although Campagni is in the Salerno (Southern) area. Sicilian is
        > often considered a separate language
        >
        > from standard Italian, which is based on Tuscan. Sicilian is more similar
        > to the languages of Sardinia than of
        >
        > Italy.

        Thank you for the information. I am not trying to document it in Tuscan Italian, which as a dialect did not exist in 1130. The Latin bit I cited is a dedication from the count of Lucera and Gargano in memory of his mother Adelisa, daughter of Roger II of Sicily. I am trying to find the entire citation, rather than just the bit quoted by Thierry Strausser, which seems to be in an Italian journal I can't get hold of.

        My persona is the daughter of a Norman knight and a Lombard woman serving at the court of Roger II; originally, I had chosen the surname "di Salerno," because I reasoned that would be used to distinguish her from the royal Adelisa. But the locative was incorrect because it's in later-period Italian.

        However, what came back from Laurel was not quite right either; Adeliza da Salerno. Northern French name + later-period Italian locative + later-period Italian name for the city.

        Therefore I'm going to resubmit as "Adelisa de Salernum," which all conforms to the Latin used at that time, and what seems to be the spelling of Roger's daughter's name in Armarium B 27.

        It just would be nice to get hold of the whole citation and be able to give the title of the publication it was reproduced in. The publication seems to be Thierry Stasser's work "Ou sont les femmes?: Prosopographie des Femmes des Familles Princières et Ducales en Italie Méridionale Depuis la Chute du Royaume Lombard (774) Jusqu'à L'installation des Normands (Env. 1100)," which was published in 2008. I'm assuming it was this one since it was a 2008 publication cited by the Foundation for Medieval Geneaology site, and Stasser does not seem to have other titles about women in the Meridionale from 2008.


        YIS,
        Adelisa de Salernum
      • Scott
        PROSOPOGRAPHICA ET GENEALOGICA Occasional Publications UPR General Editors: K. S. B. Keats-Rohan (Oxford, U.K. ), Christian Settipani (Paris, France ).
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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          PROSOPOGRAPHICA ET GENEALOGICA

          Occasional Publications UPR

          General Editors: K. S. B. Keats-Rohan (Oxford, U.K. ), Christian Settipani
          (Paris, France ).

          Prosopographica et Genealogica is a new series of scholarly monographs and collections of papers on aspects of prosopography, including onomastics and genealogy. Titles published to date cover Classical and Medieval subjects.
          It is hoped that future titles will also cover the modern period. The series aims to offer scholars the chance to publish in full the very detailed work that prosopography demands.

          Vol. 9: Ou sont les femmes? Prosopographie des femmes des familles
          princi�res et ducales en Italie m�ridionale 774-1100

          by Thierry Stasser (2008, pp. 594), ISBN 978-1-900934-08-4, Price �65

          Colm Dubh

          If you are a student, you can get this book through ILL.
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... Sometimes when the requested combination of time-place-language-culture isn t available in the research sources, the heralds guess wrong about which
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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            On Apr 22, 2010, at 11:06 PM, gianottadallafiora wrote:

            > Thank you for the information. I am not trying to document it in Tuscan Italian, which as a dialect did not exist in 1130. The Latin bit I cited is a dedication from the count of Lucera and Gargano in memory of his mother Adelisa, daughter of Roger II of Sicily. I am trying to find the entire citation, rather than just the bit quoted by Thierry Strausser, which seems to be in an Italian journal I can't get hold of.
            >
            > My persona is the daughter of a Norman knight and a Lombard woman serving at the court of Roger II; originally, I had chosen the surname "di Salerno," because I reasoned that would be used to distinguish her from the royal Adelisa. But the locative was incorrect because it's in later-period Italian.
            >

            Sometimes when the requested combination of time-place-language-culture isn't available in the research sources, the heralds guess wrong about which elements you're going to be most attached to. As a general rule, when asked, people tend to be more attached to a language/culture than to a specific time-period (or to the written forms likely in a specific time-period). So if there's no specific information on your preferences, I wouldn't be surprised if a request for "early 12th century Italian", if not fulfillable, would be resolved into "later Italian" rather than "early 12th century some language other than Italian".

            > However, what came back from Laurel was not quite right either; Adeliza da Salerno. Northern French name + later-period Italian locative + later-period Italian name for the city.
            >
            > Therefore I'm going to resubmit as "Adelisa de Salernum," which all conforms to the Latin used at that time, and what seems to be the spelling of Roger's daughter's name in Armarium B 27.

            Wouldn't the preposition "de" take the ablative? Thus "de Salerno"?

            Tangwystyl
          • George A. Trosper
            ... and ... I know nothing about the specifics here, but nevertheless I hope you will pardon one question: In both passages above, you are talking only about
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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              gianottadallafiora wrote:
              > There was no Italian vernacular in common use then in that region of Italy (vernacular poetry in what evolved into the Sicilian dialect began to pop up in Frederick II's time about 100 years later, and there are some who think that this influenced the Tuscan poets).
              >
              and
              > I am not trying to document it in Tuscan Italian, which as a dialect did not exist in 1130.
              I know nothing about the specifics here, but nevertheless I hope you
              will pardon one question: In both passages above, you are talking only
              about written versions of the language, aren't you? (If not, I do have
              additional questions!) Thanks.

              --Gerard
            • Scott
              Unless she has the exact phrase de Salernum documented, I would tend to agree. The Latin used in the 11th century codex that I examined did have many
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 23, 2010
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                Unless she has the exact phrase 'de Salernum' documented, I would tend to agree. The Latin used in the 11th century codex that I examined did have many non-standard endings (e.g., non-classical).



                N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD

                Professor Emeritus

                history & languages

                THL Colm Dubh

                Herald Extraordinaire

                Ensign Herald, Trimaris

                Apprentice to Master Finn Normansson, Baron Seleone


                Wouldn't the preposition "de" take the ablative? Thus "de Salerno"?

                Tangwystyl





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