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Re: [Authentic_SCA] documentation suggestions?

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  • JL Badgley
    On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:01 PM, sabinadepontderenard ... I have some examples of ermine-lined cloaks from Northern Qi burial tombs, but I m suspecting you
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 15, 2010
      On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:01 PM, sabinadepontderenard
      <sabinadepontderenard@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am going to be researching fur lined cloaks in our period and am not sure where to start. Would anyone out there have any resources or suggestions for actual documentation?
      > Thank you in advance..
      > Sabina de Pont de Renard
      >
      I have some examples of ermine-lined cloaks from Northern Qi burial
      tombs, but I'm suspecting you want European ones (though, for the life
      of me, I thought it looked like the typical "royal" cloaks I've seen
      in European depictions).

      What are you looking at? A history of fur-lined cloaks? What type of
      cloak is appropriate? Where are your geographic boundaries? That
      might all be useful.

      As for documentation, look for illuminations. I would suggest that
      the further north you go the more likely you are to have fur-lined
      garments of any kind, purely for climate concerns, though I believe
      you find them through Europe, though I can't think of any Roman
      depictions of fur-lined cloaks, per se, off the top of my head.

      -Ii
    • Folo Watkins
      Our society AO just made a recent ruling outlawing most lined cloaks, noting that fur-lined cloaks date to late in our period (11-12C) and are restricted to
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 15, 2010
        Our society AO just made a recent ruling outlawing most lined cloaks,
        noting that fur-lined cloaks date to late in our period (11-12C) and
        are restricted to posh impressions. On
        http://www.regia.org/members/basclot3.htm, RolandWilliamson writer
        notes "There are, however, a few vague references to a leather or fur
        lined 'Thorax' (chest covering) being worn." Ironically there is a
        Vikes document that refers to a 9C woman's grave find in Scandinavia
        that held a beaver-fur garment lined with whast they think is hemp
        cloth, but I doubt if that is of interest to your research :)

        At http://www.larsdatter.com/cloaks.htm, they note:
        "'ROYAL' CLOAK: I'm still deciding whether I want to include these as
        a category. Frequently has a fur capelet (cowl?) over a fur-lined
        cloak (with apparent opening on the right-hand side), usually also
        fur-lined. Fur is frequently ermine. Seems to appear only on men; in
        the 15th century, this evolves into a ceremonial-only garment for
        kings and noblemen. It may, in that way, be the men's equivalent of
        the sideless surcoat."
        but include no illustrations.

        Although there are a number of secondary references to fur-lined
        cloaks, The only example I can find with a quick search is an
        illustration of St. Michael fro the 15C, at
        http://www.claveringonline.org.uk/Local%20History/medieval_glass_in_clavering_chur.htm

        Hope this gives you at least some places to start looking. If you
        have ever decide to do an 8CV Quaker, I did find a great reference :)

        Cheers, Folo
        www.micelfol;cland.org
      • Catherine Olanich Raymond
        On Monday 15 March 2010 11:49:46 pm Folo Watkins wrote: On ... It s interesting to me, though. What document? Where was the grave located? Any citations you
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 16, 2010
          On Monday 15 March 2010 11:49:46 pm Folo Watkins wrote:
          On
          > http://www.regia.org/members/basclot3.htm, RolandWilliamson writer
          > notes "There are, however, a few vague references to a leather or fur
          > lined 'Thorax' (chest covering) being worn." Ironically there is a
          > Vikes document that refers to a 9C woman's grave find in Scandinavia
          > that held a beaver-fur garment lined with whast they think is hemp
          > cloth, but I doubt if that is of interest to your research :)

          It's interesting to me, though. What document? Where was the grave located?
          Any citations you may have would be useful. Thanks.


          --

          Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

          "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
          sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
        • Folo Watkins
          ... That s about all there is. The site is http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/articles/as_textiles.htm, and there is a minimal documentation, but you
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 16, 2010
            >It's interesting to me, though. What document? Where was the grave located?
            >Any citations you may have would be useful. Thanks.

            That's about all there is. The site is
            http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/articles/as_textiles.htm,
            and there is a minimal documentation, but you might want to write the
            Vikes and see what they tell you back. I've always heard that it's
            nearly impossible to tell the difference between flax, nettle and
            hemp linen after a while, so I found this notation intriguing, though
            it's too early for me.

            Good luck!

            Cheers, Folo
          • Catherine Olanich Raymond
            ... Thanks! -- Cathy Raymond No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they sell it to themselves really
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 16, 2010
              On Tuesday 16 March 2010 9:40:02 am Folo Watkins wrote:
              > >It's interesting to me, though. What document? Where was the grave
              > > located? Any citations you may have would be useful. Thanks.
              >
              > That's about all there is. The site is
              > http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/articles/as_textiles.htm,
              > and there is a minimal documentation, but you might want to write the
              > Vikes and see what they tell you back. I've always heard that it's
              > nearly impossible to tell the difference between flax, nettle and
              > hemp linen after a while, so I found this notation intriguing, though
              > it's too early for me


              Thanks!


              --

              Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

              "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
              sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
            • lenastrid
              ... I m betting that it s from this article: Ågren, T. (1995) Fur in Birka. An examination of hair residue on penannular brooches , Laborativ Arkeologi, vol.
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Monday 15 March 2010 11:49:46 pm Folo Watkins wrote:
                > On
                > > http://www.regia.org/members/basclot3.htm, RolandWilliamson writer
                > > notes "There are, however, a few vague references to a leather or fur
                > > lined 'Thorax' (chest covering) being worn." Ironically there is a
                > > Vikes document that refers to a 9C woman's grave find in Scandinavia
                > > that held a beaver-fur garment lined with whast they think is hemp
                > > cloth, but I doubt if that is of interest to your research :)
                >
                > It's interesting to me, though. What document? Where was the grave located?
                > Any citations you may have would be useful. Thanks.

                I'm betting that it's from this article: Ågren, T. (1995) "Fur in Birka. An examination of hair residue on penannular brooches", Laborativ Arkeologi, vol. 8. pp.50-58.

                Unfortunately my copy is in storage, so I can't check it for you. Perhaps you can find it via inter library loan?

                /Lena
              • Beth and Bob Matney
                Holdings are in various Scandinavian libraries. UCL (University College London) also has the issue. Try ILL (though I haven t found it in any US libraries or
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                  Holdings are in various Scandinavian libraries.
                  UCL (University College London) also has the
                  issue. Try ILL (though I haven't found it in any
                  US libraries or journal collections). At worse
                  case, Volume 8 (1995) is available for SEK 100 from the link below.

                  Laborativ arkeologi ISSN 1101-7848

                  "The journal Laborativ Arkeologi has been
                  published under the auspices of the
                  Archaeological Research Laboratory at Stockholm
                  University since 1986. In 1995 the sub-title
                  Journal of Nordic Archaeological Science was
                  introduced. Starting with volume 13 (published in
                  October 2002), the journal continues under the
                  name of Journal of Nordic Archaeological Science,
                  acronym JONAS (new ISSN: 1650-1519). "
                  http://www.archaeology.su.se/pub/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1812

                  Hope this helps.
                  Beth Matney

                  At 09:12 AM 3/18/2010, Lena wrote:
                  >I'm betting that it's from this article: Ågren,
                  >T. (1995) "Fur in Birka. An examination of hair
                  >residue on penannular brooches", Laborativ Arkeologi, vol. 8. pp.50-58.
                  >
                  >Unfortunately my copy is in storage, so I can't
                  >check it for you. Perhaps you can find it via inter library loan?
                  >
                  >/Lena
                • George A. Trosper
                  ... That would be the Authenticity Officer of Regia Anglorum (to whom and which my admiration). ... Is Vikes here slang for Viking in a very general sense,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                    Folo Watkins wrote:
                    > Our society AO
                    That would be the Authenticity Officer of Regia Anglorum (to whom and
                    which my admiration).
                    > there is a Vikes document that refers . . .
                    Is "Vikes" here slang for 'Viking' in a very general sense, or am I
                    missing something?

                    Thanks!
                  • Folo Watkins
                    ... The Vikes is a common referral to The Vikings!, the old Norse Film & Pageant Society and one of the oldest (maybe the oldest) and largest Viking Age
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                      >Is "Vikes" here slang for 'Viking' in a very general sense, or am I
                      >missing something?

                      "The Vikes" is a common referral to The Vikings!, the old Norse Film
                      & Pageant Society and one of the oldest (maybe the oldest) and
                      largest Viking Age reenactment groups.

                      Cheers, Folo
                      Micel Folcland, Regia Anglorum
                    • Catherine Olanich Raymond
                      MODERATOR NOTE: Please trim any portions of posts that do not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator (MESSAGE EDITED)
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                        MODERATOR NOTE: Please trim any portions of posts that do not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator

                        (MESSAGE EDITED)

                        On Thursday 18 March 2010 10:12:42 am lenastrid wrote:
                        > I'm betting that it's from this article: Ågren, T. (1995) "Fur in Birka. An
                        > examination of hair residue on penannular brooches", Laborativ Arkeologi,
                        > vol. 8. pp.50-58.
                        >
                        > Unfortunately my copy is in storage, so I can't check it for you. Perhaps
                        > you can find it via inter library loan?

                        I'll look for it. Thanks for the cite!

                        --

                        Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

                        "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
                        sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
                      • Catherine Olanich Raymond
                        ... Even better. Thanks again! -- Cathy Raymond No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they sell it to
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 18, 2010
                          On Thursday 18 March 2010 11:02:31 am Beth and Bob Matney wrote:
                          > Holdings are in various Scandinavian libraries.
                          > UCL (University College London) also has the
                          > issue. Try ILL (though I haven't found it in any
                          > US libraries or journal collections). At worse
                          > case, Volume 8 (1995) is available for SEK 100 from the link below.
                          >
                          > Laborativ arkeologi ISSN 1101-7848

                          Even better. Thanks again!

                          --

                          Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

                          "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
                          sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
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